But, what's tribal ?

khanjar

New member
Ok, I tend to like what I understand is labelled tribal music, and drum music, I know it is this, because the CD I have contains music under the title of tribal style. But, exactly what makes the music tribal ?

And for that matter, what makes a dance style tribal, what is the criteria for something to be tribal dance ?
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Tribal music may or not have anything to do with Tribal dance.

Tribal MUSIC often refers to music of the indigenous peoples of Western or sub-Saharan Africa and Australia or New Zealand. The ARK music catalog, however, considers MOST indigenous music to be "Tribal" of one sort or another.

Not to be flippant, but it really seems like if the music centers around a drum that's not played with a stick, it's Tribal.

According to Wiki, "Tribal rhythms is a catch-all term for music rhythms outside of the standard time signatures, especially those found in music rooted in non-western cultures, for instance African, Asian, Celtic, South American, Native American."


What is Tribal dance, in terms of belly dancing? Pandora's box, pretty much!
 

khanjar

New member
Thanks, I was beginning to think I was being ignored there.

But the 'tribal' music I have, is on belly dance CD's, not anything else and it would seem it is the music that draws me to tribal belly dance, a direction some who know me think I am moving towards. Drum music played with the dumbek, duf and those squeaky oboe type things, mostly instrumental music as opposed to music with lyrics. It is that type of music I feel the inspiration.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Thanks, I was beginning to think I was being ignored there.

But the 'tribal' music I have, is on belly dance CD's, not anything else and it would seem it is the music that draws me to tribal belly dance, a direction some who know me think I am moving towards. Drum music played with the dumbek, duf and those squeaky oboe type things, mostly instrumental music as opposed to music with lyrics. It is that type of music I feel the inspiration.

Ghawazee music! Or rather, I guess Saidi music. Alexandra of California went to Egypt and brought back something like 6 CDS full of live music she recorded from a band that played with the Ghawazee. It's just the coolest, but of course not broken into any tracks.

You know Metkal Kenawi (spelled variously) ? He and his band had some CDs of that exact music.

I know Tribal dancers (ITS) like that music, but it's really Ghawazee or I've also been told it's ethnic Saidi music. I love it too -- it was some of the first music I bought, and although my classmates at the time hated the mizmar and mijwiz, I LOVED the sound of them and immediately went out and bought a mizmar. (Which is much harder to play than you might think.) It has since become a decoration in my dance room, but one of these days I'd actually like to learn to play it. That and the rebaba, which is the super-cool violin-like instrument often played over the head of the musician. :)


eta -- Metkal Q'nawi is also how I've seen it spelled.
 

khanjar

New member
I just been ferreting around the web searching for stuff pertaining to ghawazee and saidi and found an interesting bit of writing from fat chance belly dance describing the differences between ATS and Egyptian, as follows ;

How do you use classical Egyptian songs?

Most of the time you don’t. One of the biggest mistakes
that has gone uncorrected in the evolution of
Tribal Style is the idea that we can dance to any piece
of music. Some songs are just not right for ATS, there
are too many quick changes and tempo shifts. It’s
meant for a solo dancer, not a group of dancers. Also,
classical Egyptian music is usually expecting the dancer to show emotion
during certain phrases, something that Tribal doesn’t do. We show a consistent
emotion of happiness by smiling, but not flirtatiousness by tipping the head to the
side, or intensity by gazing down at the floor or up to the ceiling. We are keeping
ourselves open to pick up cues from the other dancers by not making prolonged eye
contact with the audience. But this way of dancing to a classical song will appear
‘flat’ to someone who is familiar with Raqs Sharqi or Beledi dance. However, some
classical pieces will work for Tribal Style, especially if the slow and fast parts are
clearly defined. Don’t disregard a piece that I’ve labeled as Classical. You can learn a
lot from listening to and watching Classical Egyptian music and dance. If you try to
apply Tribal moves, you’ll see why they don’t work,
but it’s always worth listening to

From :http://www.fcbd.com/catalog/fcbdcatalog2007.pdf
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
Wow! That catalog you linked to is a great reference! How she broke down each of the tracks on the CDs is pretty cool!

I disagree with her that you can dance to the Call to Prayer. There is dance music and there is listening music and there is religious music. Unless you're an Imam, I think you should stay away from dancing the religious music, and especially avoid dancing to it if you're not Muslim. There are boatloads of CDs out there with good dance music.

Tribal (ATS) was conceived in an environment heavily influenced by Bal Anat's "Ren Faire" music. It's no wonder that Carolena gravitated toward it and designed her dance around it. And that's really what she did -- designed the dance around a certain kind of music.

You don't really see the so-called "Tribal Fusion" danced to this music now, which is telling -- how far this form actually has moved away from Tribal. TF seems to require music of a different sort. One vein of it moves more towards an industrial sound and the other is playing with vaudeville/burlesque/circus music. My prediction is that pretty soon, you won't be allowed to call yourself Tribal Fusion unless you're dancing to a calliope.
 

khanjar

New member
Yeah, I agree, no way should anything relgious be danced to if you are not of that faith, to do so, to me, seems grossly disrespectful. If those of that faith dance to their religious music,(which I suspect not), then fine, it is theirs to do so, but others, keep well away.

The resource I found, well with those descriptions, I have since listened to much of it and it makes more sense now.

Where ATS is going, with the erring towards the music you described, fine, then that is for those that like that stuff, and see the new challenges, but for me, the simple music suffices.

ATS is evolving, which is healthy, I only wish people would quit squabbling and enjoy themselves.

I am just waiting to see when ATS goes full circle, and maybe even other countries, Egypt possibly starts evolving to join the rest of the world.

There is room for all of us in this dance, just as long as we respect each other.
 

lizaj

New member
Khanjar wroteATS is evolving, which is healthy, I only wish people would quit squabbling and enjoy themselves.

I am just waiting to see when ATS goes full circle, and maybe even other countries, Egypt possibly starts evolving to join the rest of the world.


you'll have to explain this...:confused:
 

khanjar

New member
What I mean when I say full circle is that once a group say ATS for example have evolved into something else, maybe ITS, the music that inspired had changed from the simple to the more 'heavy', where will the dance evolve to next. Often it is the case when something evolves, it more often than not ends up where it started from, take western music for example, there has been lots of returning to grass toots in there before going off again in another direction. With 'tribal' style, how long before this too returns to it's roots either in a search for purity,or because audiences and dancers are getting bored. Sometimes one has to return to the start to know where one is going.

My mention of other countrues including Egypt, my belief is one of two things can happen that are different, the dance can devolve because of politics, or it can evolve and who knows, start taking on other styles used in the world to inject some variety or diffrence to attract the viewer and the entourage that follows.

Maybe it is my beliefs that influence my thoughts, for I believe life is circular not linear.
 

Kharis

New member
With 'tribal' style, how long before this too returns to it's roots either in a search for purity,or because audiences and dancers are getting bored. Sometimes one has to return to the start to know where one is going.

Maybe it is my beliefs that influence my thoughts, for I believe life is circular not linear.

i think this happens with most things. They come and go in fashion and popularity. Look at the dance scene through the last century. Styles have become much more technical and seem now to be bordering on being more diverse because, as with most things, people want more and more diversity and spectacle. In time, it will probably all implode and the good old fashioned bellydance of yore will make a comeback. Because in reality, it has never really gone away. I shall be doing an old style piece at my Christmas hafla, which has a movie theme this year. Either Taheya Carioca or Naime Akif, coz i was never a real fan of Samia Gamal. But I'm gonna have to study the footage coz what we do now is somewhat different...and then there's the costuming....
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
What I mean when I say full circle is that once a group say ATS for example have evolved into something else, maybe ITS,

It's my understanding that we use the term ATS to refer to Fat Chance Bellydance style group improv movement and cuing format, and ITS to refer to group improv of different formats, like Black Sheep and Gypsy Caravan.

Really that's about as far as ATS has evolved -- hasn't it? Those are at least the "Big Three" as far as formats for group improv.

When I first got interested in ITS, I gravitated more towards Gypsy Caravan style because they had more "movements" and I felt like it wasn't as "limited" as Carolena's format -- BUT, the more experience I got with it, I began to appreciate the simplicity and logic of ATS, and the fact that you really CAN improvise a group dance without memorizing long strings of pre-determined combinations, which is what I've seen in more recent workshops from ITS practitioners.

With 'tribal' style, how long before this too returns to it's roots either in a search for purity,or because audiences and dancers are getting bored. Sometimes one has to return to the start to know where one is going.

I think this is already happening, and maybe it's because Carolena is still alive and promoting her format? A lot of people interested in group improv (or group dancing) branched out and tried different things, and for a little while it seemed like there was a vacuum left in the space that once was filled with ATS dancers. But now I'm seeing a lot more actual performers (not just students) going back to ATS/ITS. Good group improv is HARD, so I think a lot of students who want to do it end up doing some kind of choreographed solo piece they call "fusion" because they lack the skill (or the "Tribe") to pull off real ATS. Not ALL students, but a lot. And you've all seen it, so don't flame me. :)

My mention of other countrues including Egypt,

Almost categorically, the Egyptians have shown no interest in ATS (source: internet community of Egyptian-born teachers/dancers.) The actual Egyptian-born dancers I know enjoy it as good theatre, but have no more interest in learning it than they have in learning Martha Graham style modern dance. I've met some Arabs who don't like it, some that do, and some that just don't "get it." Just my experience, but I don't think they're all that interested in it -- and there are political reasons too. I've heard a few arguments that we are trying to repackage and sell their culture back to them. Whether I agree with that or not, I can still understand it.

my belief is one of two things can happen that are different, the dance can devolve because of politics,

The Saudis can buy up every club and hotel in Egypt, but they can't kill the dance. I think we learned this in "Footloose." :) People in Iran may not legally be able to teach or perform or whatever the law is this week, but the dance isn't going to die out.

or it can evolve and who knows, start taking on other styles used in the world to inject some variety or diffrence to attract the viewer and the entourage that follows.

I think if you'll look at the history of the music and the dance you'll see it has already done that. When Egypt opened up to the West, maybe even as far back as the Napoleonic era, they seemed willing to embrace that which was Western. The music of Mohammed Abdel Wahab was really a big change. The Casino Opera, the movies, the upright posture, dance as a theatrical art, electric guitars, rhumba, MAC lipstick, polyester chiffon ... this has all happened to Egyptian music and dance in less than 100 years.

But I question your statement that Egyptians should inject some variety or difference in the dance -- is that what you're saying? I may have misunderstood. There is plenty of variety in the dance!

Nile Group Teachers Cairo Festival
Not all are Egyptian, and not all are dancers, but this is just a tiny sampling of the variety of the dance available to me as an American. Cool, huh? :D
 
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