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  1. #11
    V.I.P. shiradotnet's Avatar
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    The other one being that 'what looks like bellydance' but does not have traditional costuming nor strictly originated in ME can ever be considered as bellydance.... oh and the 'value' of fusing is also questioned
    In posting my earlier message, I had hoped to bring up an issue that both camps would be able to agree with, and perhaps begin a productive discussion of how we could use our mutual agreement on that point to ease some of the tensions that exist between tribal dancers and more traditional ones.

    I'm afraid that your bringing up the other issue is likely to destroy whatever consensus / agreement / mutual understanding I was hoping to create by derailing the discussion back into the same-old-same-old.

    Please let me point out that this time it was a tribal person who brought up the divisive issue.

    Hey Makeda, this is my very illusion that a separate forum would prevent such 'debates' as it being a 'tribal' zone, it would be off topic.
    Actually, I don't think it would make such a debate off-topic. Criticizing tribal is still a conversation about tribal, and therefore on-topic. Just as criticizing Dina in an area dedicated to discussion of Egyptian dance would still be on-topic discussion of Egyptian dance.


    Honestly, I don't think seceding would solve anything, except to make it look as though the tribal people don't want anything to do with anyone else. Is that really what you're hoping to achieve? I hope not, because I think there's a lot each side can learn from the other. But in order for learning to take place, communication needs to exist.
    Last edited by shiradotnet; 08-14-2009 at 05:35 PM.

  2. #12
    V.I.P. Reen.Blom's Avatar
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    Gosh, now I see your point. Its not about anything but having a SEPARATE subforum for tribal? I dont think the same feelings would be expressed say if a separate egyptian forum was offered? Does it imply to you folks a big crack in the big boat of bellydance? Like recodnizing it as valid? LOL Im a bit puzzled.

    And yes if a discussion of a tribal video or costume ends up as a discussion of how valid the tribal as a danceform is, then yes to me its off-topic.
    Last edited by Reen.Blom; 08-14-2009 at 06:28 PM.

  3. #13
    V.I.P. shiradotnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reen.Blom View Post
    Gosh, now I see your point. Its not about anything but having a SEPARATE subforum for tribal? I dont think the same feelings would be expressed say if a separate egyptian forum was offered? Does it imply to you folks a big crack in the big boat of bellydance?
    Well, actually, if there was a proposal to create a separate section for Egyptian, I probably would still ask the question of, "Why have a separate section for one, but not the others?"

    Especially if the request came on the heels of an Egyptian-style dancer complaining that the mean tribal people keep entering her threads and saying they hate Middle Eastern music and think the flirtatious nature of so many Egyptian performances is denigrating to women and besides we can't know what it's like to be from the Middle Eastern culture so why even try....

    The proposal to create a separate section for just one style for the sole purpose of banning discussions you don't like just feels "off" to me.

    I see there is a positive, productive discussion surrounding Tribal Butterfly's question about a cream costume. Why not try to initiate more threads of that sort?


    Quote Originally Posted by Reen.Blom View Post
    And yes if a discussion of a tribal video or costume ends up as a discussion of how valid the tribal as a danceform is, then yes to me its off-topic.
    It may be off topic to the specific thread, but it would still fit under an overall forum topic area of tribal.

  4. #14
    V.I.P. Sita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shiradotnet View Post
    Well, actually, if there was a proposal to create a separate section for Egyptian, I probably would still ask the question of, "Why have a separate section for one, but not the others?"

    Especially if the request came on the heels of an Egyptian-style dancer complaining that the mean tribal people keep entering her threads and saying they hate Middle Eastern music and think the flirtatious nature of so many Egyptian performances is denigrating to women and besides we can't know what it's like to be from the Middle Eastern culture so why even try....

    The proposal to create a separate section for just one style for the sole purpose of banning discussions you don't like just feels "off" to me.

    I see there is a positive, productive discussion surrounding Tribal Butterfly's question about a cream costume. Why not try to initiate more threads of that sort?




    It may be off topic to the specific thread, but it would still fit under an overall forum topic area of tribal.
    I agree. I think the recent ITS thread was very positive and a fascinating read for both sides. I also thought it brought more understanding of each other to both sides. Karena's Rose thread also looked at definition and fusion in a new and challenging way. I would hate to see threads like that end because people were keeping to their own forums. Although I'm not against the idea of a separate forum, I just don't know if that will help the issue or just avoid it.

    Sita
    Last edited by Sita; 08-14-2009 at 07:07 PM.

  5. #15
    V.I.P. Reen.Blom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sita View Post
    I agree. I think the recent ITS thread was very positive and a fascinating read for both sides. I also thought it brought more understanding of each other to both sides. Karena's Rose thread also looked at definition and fusion in a new and challenging way. I would hate to see threads like that end because people were keeping to their own forums. Although I'm not against the idea of a separate forum, I just don't know if that will help the issue or just avoid it.

    Sita
    I also think constructive discussion is good and enlightening for all the sides. Who says people will keep to their forums? we all learn from all the sides. But i do not necessarily want to discuss it in every thread...lol

  6. #16
    V.I.P. lizaj's Avatar
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    I like my dual personality but it/they like/s being on the same forum,darlings

  7. #17
    Member TribalDancer's Avatar
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    Reen, I feel sad for you that you have felt disrespected or ousted as a result of a love to tribal. I know it can be exhausting trying to 'defend' what you love--it's true that so many tribal theads do end up devolving into a discussion over whether it is or is not bellydance--I get tired of it too! But I think that has a lot to with what Shira had to say, which was spot on: so much of what is being labeled tribal bellydance these days *isn't* bellydance, yet there are a lot of uneducated dancers defending it as such. So it gets exhausting at the other end of the spectrum as well--dancers who are well-meaning feel compelled to educate those who may not know better as to where the lines are drawn (as crooked and wide as the lines may be...and grey colored to boot).

    I don't think having a separate forum would realy do anyhthing to combat that. i know I feel I am right smack in the middle--a lover of tribal, and will defend it to those who would relegate it to non-bellydance status; and yet frustrated with the misuse of the term tribal to blanket many MANY things which are not at all bellydance (or simply fusion and not tribal), and I feel a strong compulsion to help others understand when it is, when it isn't, and why! I sometimes need to take a big long step away from my computer to cool off on both sides of the issue, and some conversations I just can't engage in at all or it will definitely be bad news! LOL

    Anywho, I just want to say that I do completely understand your desire to feel safe and not have to defend your passion all the time. But I agree with others that even if such a space were created, it would create a greater divide or perception of "otherness" and would not really put the kaibosh on the need to debate and discuss. After all, that is why so many of us are here.

    Do look up some of the other resources on the web for a more tribal-centric option and see if you can't get a fix there, but please do continue to post here and build up the tribal discussions here as well!

  8. #18
    Member PoleDanceABCs's Avatar
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    Uh oh... do I want to throw my two cents in... Erm...

    Well I love all types of fusions and mixing of cultural dances. It is always interesting to see how and where things go because sometimes things don't go as "planned". In the beginning of any new genre there is always a lot of debate when it comes to explaining the genre. When modern dance was coming about there were lots of questions of what it was, even amongst the modern dance followers and innovators. Was it the total deviance from "classical" dance forms like ballet or was it the body movement or was it music choice? And even then there were several brances and schools that broke off to form their own rules. I think we can see that with Tribal and Tribal Fusion... I just have a feeling it is going to take more time to really truly identify all the sub-groups.

    For me what I loved about Tribal is the mixing of bellydance with modern elements. It is true that a lot TF dancers try to say their dance is bellydance when there is no hint of BD in their dance at all. Then they should just call it Tribal Fusion (PERIOD) not Tribal Fusion Bellydance.

    As to having a seperate sub-forum for different styles... I don't think there is a need for it. Why can't we just all get along? I know that I didn't feel the love right away in my intro post but I know you guys meant well.

  9. #19
    Member TribalDancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoleDanceABCs View Post

    For me what I loved about Tribal is the mixing of bellydance with modern elements. It is true that a lot TF dancers try to say their dance is bellydance when there is no hint of BD in their dance at all. Then they should just call it Tribal Fusion (PERIOD) not Tribal Fusion Bellydance.
    But where is the "tribal" in that?

  10. #20
    V.I.P. Aziyade's Avatar
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    I've noticed a trend starting in the 80s around here in "regular" dance classes. There's a kind of dance that's not really a specific school of jazz, and it's not based in ballet theory or modern theory, and it's fairly interpretive.

    Instead of calling this style "Ballet fusion" or "jazz fusion" it's usually referred to as "Lyrical Dance" which is a very lovely name for a very lovely dance.

    (although sometimes you see it referred to as lyrical jazz, but less so nowadays.)


    There's been an interesting suggestion to create a "World Fusion" dance category, which wouldn't really have boundaries and into which many of the ill-named Tribal Fusion dancers could easily fit.

    But some of those same dancers still want to hang on to the words "tribal" or "bellydance" -- strictly for marketing purposes. They often admit they don't do "bellydance" any more, but they still want to keep the name. I don't think that's ethically the right thing to do.


    hehe- you could have "Lyrical Tribal" but to me that's exactly what Fat Chance is. Hey Shay -- you should suggest that to Carolena! LOL!

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