Tribal/Tribal Fusion Forum

[TribalDancer]

Heh Well considering American Tribal Style Bellydance is wher ethe word tribal came from, and that is Carolena's puview, I think she's doing just fine on the naming front. Haha! It's all the other people using the word tribal erroneously that need suggestions.

 

[Chani]

While I understand that some people aren't a fan of fustion belly dance and express that here I've never perceived this as an excusive or anti Tribal forum. I don't read here all the time. Today I am here to find out stuff about Tribal dancing. I will research elsewhere but I like the broad range of opinions and infromation I get here and also the honesty so this is my first port of call. A good way to not feel left out is to join in more.

 

[raks amira]

every changing

We all must know that belly dancing /tribal dance is ever changing and that all of us are always learning form each other. I am a traditonal style dancer. but, i am learning from the tribal fusion and all other styles as well. we should all keep an open mind. maybe someone should start a thread,help to teach what you know.:think:

 

[PoleDanceABCs]

But where is the "tribal" in that?

LOL I'm just saying to cut out the bellydance part but I'm not going to name that new genre.

 

[Sita]

Can I just use this moment to add something to the debate. For us 'oriental dancers' (for want of a better word), the issue is always one of defintion. We have no problem with any dance form - many of us even like Tribal and have favourite tribal style dancers. The thing has always been that some of us (not all) do not believe that these are 'belly dance' for a variety of reasons. This debate is not black and white each person has a slightly different position on where the bar is set, what belly dance is etc.
I just wanted to make this clear because some of us get a little annoyed that we are seen as hating tribal full stop or not seeing it as valid dance form, which is not the case at all.

I also understand the frustration and tension these debates have caused. I also think that posts like these: that discuss the debate rather than join in the debate (with both sides just arguing wuth each other) are a great help. Prehaps we all just need to review how these issues have been tackled before to stop people feeling they are being picked on. There is nothing wrong with writing on a post that you don't want to discuss certain areas that will lead to a 'bitchfest'. I think Amulya did it very well on a topic she posted. she set clear boundaries for the discusion from the start that way any such fiery debate can be placed as off topic - ignored or reported to moderators.

Sita

 

[lizaj]

I'm just waiting for someone to say :
"Some of my best friends are tribal dancers"

 

[Reen.Blom]

See? That's exactly what I meant! Even this thread turned into discussion of what is 'tribal' and 'bellydance'. LOL

Well with that I withdraw my separate forum suggestion, and off to seek the tribal bellydance pastures elsewhere.

 

[khanjar]

Why, does it seem everytime there is a discussion involving the word bellydance or tribal, there is differences ?

Why, cannot we just accept, whatever the genre, it is the dance that is important, and there the joy of the dancers.

Yes, this is a bellydance forum, and as I have been informed, a part of Oriental dancer, so, that being so, I can understand the bias is towards oriental dance, but surely even in a dance alien to oriental, if parts of oriental are used in a fusion form, those that dance that dance have just as much validity when discussing what it is that they do.

But, what it comes down to at the end of the day, is my way is right, yours is wrong. What is the aim you have to ask yourself, what do you hope to do, alienate others, or welcome them to the community with open arms. Just to understand, a tribal dancer, might not be a tribal dancer forever, their current path might not be their only path, and oriental dance might move towards that of the west, who knows, but lets not alienate others now, for they may very well be dance partners in the future.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Why, does it seem everytime there is a discussion involving the word bellydance or tribal, there is differences ?

Because every time we talk about tribal or oriental, there is someone on the far fringe of what even a liberal definition of tribal or oriental would include, who wants to argue that THEIR dance be included and recognized a something that it's not.

No matter how much I stomp around and swish around a manton, I'm NOT doing Flamenco, and for me to argue that I am doing Flamenco is just pointless.

Why, cannot we just accept, whatever the genre, it is the dance that is important, and there the joy of the dancers.

Because too many people come to this forum with no actual understanding of "the dance" and when we try to educate them -- to help them appreciate and enjoy it EVEN MORE -- they think we're haters and bitches and whatever else.

Yes, this is a bellydance forum, and as I have been informed, a part of Oriental dancer, so, that being so, I can understand the bias is towards oriental dance,

Oriental dance IS Belly dance.
Belly dance = Oriental dance and Tribal (ATS)

ATS is one step removed from American Oriental, which is one step removed from ethnic Oriental dance. If one of the offshoots of ATS strays a distance from ATS, and it no longer contains any of the recognizable elements or hallmarks of "belly dance," then it is no longer recognized as belly dance, which professional dancers and entertainers understand. It's usually only the newer students who persist in calling their fusion experiments "belly dance."

but surely even in a dance alien to oriental, if parts of oriental are used in a fusion form,

What parts of Oriental are being used in this hypothetical fusion form? I hope you're not talking about the movement vocabulary because as every professional dancer and teacher will tell you, the "moves" don't define the dance. Our movement vocabulary is shared by many other dances including Hula and Polynesian, Salsa, and some North African dances. But Hula isn't Oriental dance, and Shikkat isn't Salsa.

those that dance that dance have just as much validity when discussing what it is that they do.

If you want to discuss Flamenco or Krumping, there's the "off-topic" forum for that.

But, what it comes down to at the end of the day, is my way is right, yours is wrong.

Sigh. A whale is not a fish. Now it looks like a big fish to me, but I know that professional biologists will say, "well it may look like a fish, but we classify a "fish" as an animal with the following characteristics, and whales don't share those same characteristics, so we call them "cetaceans" instead."

I don't argue with the biologist because that's his area of expertise. And when I look into the characteristics of what a "fish" is, I start thinking that whales as not-fish are pretty amazing animals.

What I also don't do is sit around arguing with biologists that they should rewrite their biology books and start calling whales fish, just because I think they look like fish and because my neighbor and cousin Fred also think they look like fish.

and THAT is exactly what it all comes down to.

What is the aim you have to ask yourself, what do you hope to do, alienate others, or welcome them to the community with open arms.

We hope to educate them so they can appreciate MORE about this dance, and possibly become brilliant fusion ARTISTS who understand their medium and can take it somewhere it's never been -- NOT simply ripping off and imitating the latest fad that happens to call itself belly dance this week.

Just to understand, a tribal dancer, might not be a tribal dancer forever,

Yes, and as long as we keep educating people, we open up even more opportunities for a dancer who is exposed to only one teacher or one class or one style, no matter whether she's Tribal OR Oriental, or American fusion.

their current path might not be their only path,

Most of us here have also had dance training in another form, whether Western or Eastern, Tribal or Oriental. What we choose to focus our attention or studies on is just that -- a focus. It doesn't mean we don't enjoy dancing other styles or other forms.

and oriental dance might move towards that of the west, who knows, but lets not alienate others now, for they may very well be dance partners in the future.

There is no point in simply smiling and nodding and saying "oh yes, a whale is a fish -- you call it what you want. It's a free country." How does that help anybody appreciate the wonder and beauty of two totally different animals?

 

[Reen.Blom]

*sigh*

 

[Kharis]

Why, does it seem everytime there is a discussion involving the word bellydance or tribal, there is differences ?

Why, cannot we just accept, whatever the genre, it is the dance that is important, and there the joy of the dancers.

.

Why indeed. It never fails to amaze me how folks put emphasis where none is necessary. Talk about the unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable! It does rather beat all the joy of simply dancing clean out of it.

 

[Kharis]

Just to understand, a tribal dancer, might not be a tribal dancer forever, their current path might not be their only path, and oriental dance might move towards that of the west, who knows, but lets not alienate others now, for they may very well be dance partners in the future.

I should think a true dancer can do all styles of dance, or at least more than one. Which most of us do. I can do Tribal, and it's not easy. It requires lots of physical discipline and coordination and the fact that I prefer to do Oriental is neither here nor there. A lot of people think Tribal style is a cop out, that it's easy...well it ain't. When done properly, it's bloody hard.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

sigh indeed.


ETA:

The question is why does it always come back to terminology.

The answer is because when we study anything academically, the first thing we learn is taxonomy and the naming of parts. We have to be able to define that which we are discussing. Defining things involves putting them into little boxes of discrete content.

There is a lot of confusion over perceived "prejudice" on this board, but all it really boils down to is having a shared language in which to discuss a subject. It is generally accepted that the term "ATS/ITS" describes a dance that includes group improvisation. If the dance being discussed does NOT include group improv, then it should not be considered ATS/ITS, and to call it so would hinder further discussion about it.

The anatomy of the shared language, the naming of parts -- it's the first step in meaningful discourse. It's not about arguing "my way or else" -- it's about having the tools to truly discuss and analyze your subject, which is what people here want to do.

 

[TribalDancer]

As always, if these discussions exhaust you, or fail to educate you, challenge you, or uplift you, you don't have to read them or participate in them. I for one wax and wane. Sometimes I adore them, and sometimes I feel just so tiiiired. So when I feel the former I actively participate, and when I feel the latter, I just avoid the discussions. Simple.

I think that education is important. I think having a common understanding, if not a shared definition, is important to the survival of our community and the dance we all profess to love.

As an aside, Aziyade, you always have the best scientific parallels to share, and I just love them! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Reen.Blom]

One thing for sure: if a thread has 'tribal' in it is bound to end up like this one. Nice and educational for sure, but in EVERY thread same discussion? Sorry, defeats the point. For me at least. Thanks for attention, but this is exactly what i was hoping to avoid.

Resistance is Futile.

 

[Ariadne]

One thing for sure: if a thread has 'tribal' in it is bound to end up like this one. Nice and educational for sure, but in EVERY thread same discussion? Sorry, defeats the point. For me at least.

I am going to agree and I am not a tribal dancer nor likely will ever be one. I do find the subject interesting and get veeery tired of threads on the subject disintegrating into what is and isn't "bellydance". I have learned an awful lot on the subject but probably not what the posters intended for me to take away.

However I have a different take on a solution than making it's own forum. With the new rule system I say the Tribal dancers should just start their threads and then anytime someone comes in and starts lecturing on the origins/definition of bellydance etc they should just be reported for going off topic and ignored. If you want to discuss what parts of tribal count as bellydance and which don't then please start your own thread on the subject instead of interrupting others. I am sure you will have plenty of people willing to hammer the subject with you.

Seriously I would love to see more discussion of Tribal dance here. I am hoping rather then intimidation there will be those willing accept TribalDancer's support and go for it. I accept that it's not likely but I can still hope.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

With the new rule system I say the Tribal dancers should just start their threads and then anytime someone comes in and starts lecturing on the origins/definition of bellydance etc they should just be reported for going off topic and ignored.

People usually only answer questions that are asked.

When people ask why there are differences, or what style "bellydancer" Shakira is, or why does it matter what it's called -- they're asking legitimate questions that shouldn't be ignored or brushed off. It's not some weird cabaret versus tribal prejudice. Tribal dancers themselves want delineation and boundaries so they're not advertised as strippers or misrepresented as West African dancers.

 

[Ariadne]

People usually only answer questions that are asked.

I have to disagree. I don't have the time to go back and count the number but there have been many a post about "Tribal isn't really bellydance you know" or "before I answer the question let me just say it's not bellydance" and so on and so forth. I am a big believer in semantics myself but if the subject isn't "is Tribal/Fusion bellydance" it's off subject. Just say what the differences is without the huge history lesson on why it doesn't count. When Alosha wrote her little vent the 3 basic answers were "I don't see the prejudice you are talking about, "don't let anyone tell you what you should do or get you down", "it doesn't count as bellydance get over it". The last was what is being objected too and yes, there is prejudice when the answers are prefixed and refocus the entire thread. Like I said, people who derail a thread from a facet of Tribal to whether it even counts should be reported for being off topic and ignored.

"There is an elephant in that there corner."

 

[TribalDancer]

I guess I just don't see that very often. Or when I do, maybe I just ignore it for the troll behavior it is. After all, if a thread has a title that is clear it will be discussing tribal bellydance, why would someone come in and say it's not bellydance unless they wanted to stir the shite? So ignore them and move on!

 

[Salome]

I just dropped in here. Actually, in the first incarnation of my forum there was a main forum "Dance Styles" (as there is now) and when you went in there, there were these sub forums:

* Turkish Oryantal
* Lebanese Oriental
* Egyptian Oriental
* American Oriental
* Tribal
(I think there was also a subforum for folks dances)

I never thought of it as a means of superiority/segregation - rather an organization tool where people could get into the nitty gritty of learning the unique attributes of that particular style. At the time there were plenty of folks with stuff to share and discuss regarding Egyptian, much less for American and Tribal and the other styles not so much... So when we re did the forum we just decided to go with a general "Dance Styles" section. Of course the membership has grown a great deal since then so that would probably have different results.