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  1. #11
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yasmine Bint Al Nubia View Post
    My first impression of the video was one of sadness than disgust.
    <snip>
    I don't know what it is like to live in a destitute situation, without education and the necessary skills for survival. I'm fortunate not to live in a situation that would force me to debase myself. But I do have empathy for millions of women who simply do not have a choice in the matter.
    Yasmine
    Very good point. What would make a woman in that cuklture behaqve in such a way and in public no less. No little girl wakes up one day and says "I think I wanna be a 'ho'e when I grow up"!

  2. #12
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freya View Post
    Yasmine, your comment was very perceptive and I could not agree more with what you said.

    Amongst other perceptive remarks you [Yasmine] said:"it's no coincidence that Oriental dance is used as front for prostititution in Middle Eastern countries as stripping is used as front for it here in America." In fact, classical ballet--which today is regarded with such reverence and viewed as an expression of "high culture"--also served as a front for prostitution in the 19th century. There is certainly more than meets the eye to Degas' paintings of ballet dancers, in which the "objectifying gaze" of the potential customer is omnipresent. A figure of a male viewer is sometimes included in the actual painting, or the notion of "spectatorship and commodification" is implied through the composition of the painting.

    Think about all those little girls in tutus, with ballerina dreams, and beautiful Degas-dancers decorating their walls... little do they know of the sordid conditions Degas' young models had to suffer...I owe this insight to a a Columbia University professor, and I wish I could give you a reference to further reading. The professor's argument certainly shattered a few illusions in the lecture hall!

    So yes, Yasmine, I think your question "do we care more about the image of the dance than we do the lives of women who are exploited?" is a very poignant one.

    Freya
    I'm so glad you mentioned this. If ballet could rise above that exploitation and filth, so can we. Unfortunately, where ever you have female performers, you will have those men who try to prey on them and objectify them. why is it so hard to see a woman as a total human being instead of an assortment of body parts? I certainly understand why so many women in the Midlle East are adopting the veil, (not the ones who are forced by their families to do it). It makes them feel safe. They want to be judged for their minds and who they are and what they can do rather than what they have.

    Personally, I think that it is possible for a woman not to have to hide her beauty. I don't think this gives men an automatic right to take liberties with them. God gave women bodies, its a sad thing that so many of them are made to feel they have to hide it just to considered human. This is the real problem that Oriental dancers face today and that ballerinas faced in times past. Our time will come as well.

  3. #13
    Moderator Amulya's Avatar
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    I have to log in to see it. Is it the flappy boob dancer? In that case I have seen it and it is disgusting.

  4. #14
    Member Rebecca_'s Avatar
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    First of all, that's terrible. I really don't see how some chick humping a guy's leg can require any sort of skill at all. Dogs can do that perfectly fine.
    Second of all, what is she wearing? Is that spandex? Spandex SHORTS? :eek:
    Third of all, she shouldn't have even pretended to attempt to belly dance. She appeared to be trying to shimmy or do a hip circle or something. Last I checked, rotating one's crotch at an audience isn't belly dance. ug.

  5. #15
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    first of all, the clip just shows that there are cheap people all over the world. If you dont want to pay for good artistry/entertainment, you get crap. Therefore; there is work for less talented dancers such as this dancer.

    Second of all, what she's wearing isnt much different from what you'd see in just about any Las Vegas show/cabaret in Cairo.

    There are lots of girls that make their living off of providing "cheaper" shows to the public at various functions. The prostitution assosiation with BD doesnt necessarily come from the fact that the dancer *actually* is a prostitute but from the fact that:
    1) she's dressed differently from the women on the street
    2) she's directly and openly flirting with the men on in presence
    3) she's presenting herself in a manner that is not expected from a decent respectable woman
    4) she's an entertainer, any entertainer is hired help - therefore, they're lower than everyone else on the social ladder due to the fact that they "submit" to their employers wishes until payment has been received (within the constrains of the agreed upon service to be provided).
    5) she's appearing in public

    From time to time I experience the social ladder playing a role in my classes as well, and at that time I always make a point of reminding my students that in spite of whatever social recognition, or lack of such, they may have in their "other" life - when on stage they are all equally half naked, equally physically mobile, equally displayed and receive equal recognition until anything different has been established through propper approach and appearance before their audiences.... until then, they're all half naked on stage while moving their body in unimaginable ways..... Not insinuating that I tell my students that they are prostitutes, I just like to put things in perspective for them if they get weird in class.

    DaVid

  6. #16
    Moderator Safran's Avatar
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    When I tried to access the video it said that this clip has been removed by the user... But I guess spending that time on reading your thoughts instead of watching the clip is so much better...

  7. #17
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    would love to see what you are discussing, but all i get is a party with "ballroom" dancing w/ a single guy rocking out alone ??????????

  8. #18
    Member Outi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaVidofScandinavia View Post
    The prostitution assosiation with BD doesnt necessarily come from the fact that the dancer *actually* is a prostitute but from the fact that:
    1) she's dressed differently from the women on the street
    2) she's directly and openly flirting with the men on in presence
    3) she's presenting herself in a manner that is not expected from a decent respectable woman
    4) she's an entertainer, any entertainer is hired help - therefore, they're lower than everyone else on the social ladder due to the fact that they "submit" to their employers wishes until payment has been received (within the constrains of the agreed upon service to be provided).
    5) she's appearing in public
    DaVid
    Or, she IS a prostitue. I do agree with you David, but after actually being part of the dance industry in Egypt, I lost all the innocense. Dancing is business, money talks, and that's it.

    I didn't see the clip, so my comments are not about this particular case, but just side note to David's writing.

  9. #19
    V.I.P. Tarik Sultan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by outi View Post
    Or, she IS a prostitue. I do agree with you David, but after actually being part of the dance industry in Egypt, I lost all the innocense. Dancing is business, money talks, and that's it.

    I didn't see the clip, so my comments are not about this particular case, but just side note to David's writing.
    I agree with you Outi. This is what I've been saying for years. Dancing in Egypt is first about the money, art second. That's not to say that there aren't artists there,but whatever artistic merit you see is due to the innitiative of the performer.

    Most, if not all the clubs on Pyraqmid Street are only thinking about what the male tourists from the Gulf want to see, the five star hotels, what they think rich businessmen and their clients want to see.

    Very few people have the vision to see that the dance has the potential to be anything more than this. It annoys me greatly to go to Cairo and see a European dance company performing at the Opera House, while Oriental Dancers can't even be shown on network television. Egyptians will create Modern Dance Companies, Ballet Companies, but never stop to consider the possibility of creating an Oriental Dance company that they could present on the Opera stage. To them, its only a cheap form of entertainment for richmen and tourist in the nightclubs.

    By the way Outi, I'd be interested to know what you think about the Oriental Dance scene over here. Granted, we have our share of problems and controversy, but your presence on this form tells me you are someone who cares about the dance aqnd believes in its potential. Could you share with us your points of view?

  10. #20
    Member Outi's Avatar
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    I don't really know what to say. '
    I have been dancing oriental dance since I was 15, so my dance history started long ago. I was able to do many things in Finland with great teachers and fellow dancers. We did many challenging projects, both in Finland and abroad.

    I have been in Egypt almost 1,5 years now. Only thing I can say ia that I have learned a lot. The dancing here IS different. And hopefully I continue learn more... Even with all the down sides, I have enjoyed working here.

    That's all I can really say. If something comes up, I will join the conversion.

    Love
    Outi/Donya

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