Beauty

[Oresai]

I was wondering what the general attitude to physical beauty in dancers is, where everyone lives?
Here in the West I tend to think it can be rather shallow....maybe understandably, an audience would obviously rather look at a young, pretty girl dancing, than a middle aged housewife?
I`m a newbie to dance, and live in an area where physical beauty is fawned over and prized, over and above talent and smarts!
It takes courage for me to get up and dance, even though I have only done so for those very close to me...the thought of ever dancing in front of a wider audience...well...I`ll probably always be a `livingroom` dancer.
There just seems to be so much pressure on women to keep looking beautiful for longer, no matter what their age, and it feels kinda scary sometimes....
I`m not at the other extreme...I don`t believe we should let ourselves go, taking pride in how you look is natural and good and healthy....but..sometimes I DO think it is taken to extremes, with the emphasis on youth and beauty even in middle aged women who`ve raised families, worked, whose lives can show in their faces, in character...
Does lack of conventional physical beauty make a difference to a dancer? I would have thought not, that the dance holds more meaning than that, but what about to the audience? What is it like where you live?:think:

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Oresai, maybe I'm wrong, but I think regardless of geographic area, there will always be those (in varying numbers) who place too much emphasis on physical beauty. It's how you handle this information that matters.

If you let what other people think bother you, it will show, and not just in your dancing. It will cause you to feel less confident, and will detract from your outer image, which will in turn make you feel even less confident...and so on, and so on. It's a vicious cycle.

Yes, in professional bellydancing (a la Miles Copeland's BDSS), looks plays a significant part in bellydancing. But Miles Copeland's vision is not the "be-all, end-all" of bellydance image. Real beauty comes from within---it starts in a woman's heart. If you're a loving, caring individual who is happy, who smiles from the inside and lets it radiate on the outside, your beauty will outshine any perceived physical flaws (note that I said perceived). Sometimes, we are our own harshest judge.

Bellydance expresses everything that is within you. When others see you dance, see your joy and confidence, be assured that they will see your true beauty transcend the marks of age. Bellydance is for us throughout all our life phases: when we are young maids, when we are nurturing mothers, and when we are fully-blossomed matrons.

It is hard sometimes, to wake up and look in the mirror, and see a new bag, wrinkle, or grey hair that wasn't there before. I know---I'm 48. You try hard to find that young girl you once were, hoping she hasn't gone completely away. You look at yourself, and think that perhaps you're too old for this or that (bellydancing in public, for instance). But that's the beauty (no pun intended) of bellydance. Bellydance can be with you, and be in you, no matter what your age.




To Age With Beauty

To most, growing old is a frightful thing
that should be avoided with all one's being.
Science and medicine are presently engaged
in striving to retard the effects of old age.

However, in my opinion, it is better to face
the approach of one's twilight with dignity and grace.
It is useless to cling to unwarranted fears
of the impending encroachment of the latter years.

As I grow older, let the changes I see
in the mirror reflect how Christ would have me to be.
May the lines on my face be fearlessly caused
by the countless smiles I give without pause.

Let honor and wisdom in my life be seen
as the years kiss my hair with a silvery gleam.
May the passing of time sweeten my heart,
regardless if health from my body departs.

Lord, make me everything You would have me to be,
Let me be an example of aging with beauty.

November 25, 2002

Hope this helps, Oresai.

 

[Oresai]

If you let what other people think bother you, it will show, and not just in your dancing. It will cause you to feel less confident, and will detract from your outer image, which will in turn make you feel even less confident...and so on, and so on. It's a vicious cycle.

To Age With Beauty

To most, growing old is a frightful thing
that should be avoided with all one's being.
Science and medicine are presently engaged
in striving to retard the effects of old age.

However, in my opinion, it is better to face
the approach of one's twilight with dignity and grace.
It is useless to cling to unwarranted fears
of the impending encroachment of the latter years.

As I grow older, let the changes I see
in the mirror reflect how Christ would have me to be.
May the lines on my face be fearlessly caused
by the countless smiles I give without pause.

Let honor and wisdom in my life be seen
as the years kiss my hair with a silvery gleam.
May the passing of time sweeten my heart,
regardless if health from my body departs.

Lord, make me everything You would have me to be,
Let me be an example of aging with beauty.

November 25, 2002

Hope this helps, Oresai.

That DOES help, in fact you`ve no idea how much. I am one of two sisters, my younger sis got the looks in the family, so I pretty much grew up being `the ugly one` and have been, in fact, called that, and to my face, more than once. So even I was puzzled with myself for being drawn to such an art that emphasises beauty...bearing in mind my first exposure to it was through Hollywood, then pictures of stunningly gorgeous dancers online, then Youtube videos, and though I know these videos are often maligned, when I browsed through them it heartened me to see women of all ages, shapes and sizes dancing, and all of them obviously loving it, and looking beautiful.
I hadn`t realised, until I read here of the performances others routinely give for audiences, total strangers, of just how much courage it can take, to get up there, to be the focus of so many gazes, realising that many of them will only be scrutinising what you look like, and how few may be watching you dance and seeing the beauty of the dance, and appreciating the culture and heritage behind it.
Thanks so much for responding. Later this year, I`m moving from this small island and hoped to get a group going, not a teaching group (I`m not qualified!) but of other beginners like me, who want to learn together, instead of being isolated. I began to wonder, though, if I could really do it...wondering if folks would laugh at someone my age (this is a very provincial area and folks here can be quite judgemental) but your common sense and kind words help me realise, age is nothing to be ashamed of, nor is not looking like a movie star.
I`m hoping to get that beginners group going one day, and to make friends through it, friends of all ages. Thanks Farasha

 

[SmilingMarie]

Oresai, as you say the emphasis in the West is on people being young and beautiful. But, I think, that within the dance community we all appreciate the joy of the dance - which everyone regardless of looks, age, size, hair colour etc can enjoy and experience.
However, when working as a pro and dealing Arab audiences the focus is definitely back on the 'young and beautiful'.
One time, I was booked to perform at an Arabic wedding. I had only been dealing with another musician (also an Arab) who had been booked for the wedding (and not the groom or other family members) and I had a meeting beforehand to discuss music, timing etc. We had a few questions so the musician called the groom and said that he was in a meeting with me and that we had a few questions. The first thing the groom asked was "Is she beautiful?" - the musician (luckily!) said yes and they proceeded to discuss the questions. Everything worked put, I had a fab time and they (the groom, family and audience) were happy.
But this, for me, really put it on the spot. The groom didn't ask "Is she a good dancer?" - he asked if I was pretty. Sometimes this emphasis on looks over skill makes me sad (I personally think that skill, knowledge of culture/music/traditions etc and EXPRESSION are key). But it is the way it is, it seems.
Anyone with similar/different experiences?

 

[Amulya]

Here most dancers seem to be a bit older (how old, I can't tell, I'm a terrible judge of age), and they're not all the same in figure. Many of them tend to be a little bit larger, but not all. I think the GP is a bit easier here then in Holland, in Holland I often got questions like: 'you're not one of those fat belly dancers, are you?' or 'you're not blond, are you?' apparantly they didn't like blonde dancers, maybe because it didn't match their picture of a belly dancer. I had dark hair, so that wasn't a problem, but now I'm a red head, LOL. Here in Oz red hair seems to be no problem. But in Holland I did feel insecure in my fatter days and didn't want to perform much then. Lucky for me that was only a short period of time.

One thing that's good about belly dance is that there are so many ways of costuming that anyone can create a nice look! And beauty is still in the eye of the beholder

 

[Kharmine]

Well, let's face it, Oresai, the prejudice toward youth and whatever the current standard of female beauty is huge in just about everything, always has been. It has literally been bred into us -- an evolutionary process of unconsciously seeking out fertility, health and the ability to protect the next generation.

Of course, that has become so deeply ingrained and unexamined in our societies that now menopausal women running for political office are scrutinized about their age, wardrobe and looks. The bias is even more marked in entertainment -- I'm not even going to go there; it is what it is.

But what a complete waste of brain cells to tell any woman she is ugly. Compared to what? The Mona Lisa? The women Rubens painted? Geishas? Eskimo gals? Kali? Sailor Moon? Michelle Obama? Air-brushed & Photoshopped distorted pinup fantasies?

The ideal of feminine beauty has varied so wildly over the ages and all over the world and from subculture to subculture that "ugly" is just as subjective and its meaning as ephemeral.

Someone who meets the current standard of beauty without working at it is fairly rare. Must be, because even high-fashion models don't look like their own magazine covers until they've been worked over by a team of illusionists. And even then, today, it's not enough -- their photos often get "touched up" so these naturally "gifted" women can look even more unnaturally "perfect."

Physical feminine beauty is an illusion that can be managed with skill, determination, good advice, the appropriate wardrobe and judicious use of cosmetics. Yes, and it does take attention to posture, walk, voice and most of all -- attitude.

Anyone who doubts that has never seen an ordinary young man turned into an entirely believable drop-dead glamorous diva.

The terrific thing about belly dance is that any able-bodied person can learn to move with grace and have fun, and the more experience you have the better you dance. Same is true with the tango and flamenco and most forms of ballroom. (I love ballet but I don't include it because even the best ballerinas are pretty much starting to lose it by the time they're 40, whereas with the other forms you can be a strong dancer as long as you're healthy!)

And I firmly believe that the person who gives grace to others with love, humor, acceptance, and wisdom is a person who will dance with a beauty that is memorable.

 

[Amulya]

Someone who meets the current standard of beauty without working at it is fairly rare. Must be, because even high-fashion models don't look like their own magazine covers until they've been worked over by a team of illusionists. And even then, today, it's not enough -- their photos often get "touched up" so these naturally "gifted" women can look even more unnaturally "perfect."

Those magazine models look often pretty scary to me, like they're no real people. Which woman doesn't have pores on her face? Those models don't! And it looks pretty weird (their eyelids also look very strange, like they wouldn't be able to blink). Their body's have been photoshopped to not so nice looking proportions. Maybe because I'm a belly dancer I expect some curves, so when all curves have been edited out of those model pictures they look pretty strange to me.
Actually clothes show better on curvy women. Here in Oz some of the catalogues use more normal looking women and it's easier to see what clothes would look like on a real person. I don't find it appealing if something is modelled on someone who doesn't look real, I'd be thinking: no way I fit in that!

 

[Amulya]

Anyone who doubts that has never seen an ordinary young man turned into an entirely believable drop-dead glamorous diva.

MAN???? LOL

sorry I couldn't resist that, it was probably a typo :lol:

 

[SmilingMarie]

And I firmly believe that the person who gives grace to others with love, humor, acceptance, and wisdom is a person who will dance with a beauty that is memorable.

Well put Kharmine!
My experience is that a Western audience can perhaps accept a larger dancer better than a ME one. They appreciate the skill, the 'exoticness' of it, the fact that someone is at easy with their body and shows that through dance (despite age, size, hair colour etc).
An ME audience expects a gorgeous dancer. Period. It is not exotic to them. It is not about 'body acceptance and lets all hold hands and appreciate this'. Maybe this is also rooted in many of the stereotypes and prejudices about bellydancers in the ME (dancers as prostitutes etc) and the dual position it has in society (for lack of a better description).

I know I am generalising a lot here - but, up to now, this has been my experience (having performed for Western + ME audiences).

 

[Kharis]

I was wondering what the general attitude to physical beauty in dancers is, where everyone lives?
Here in the West I tend to think it can be rather shallow....maybe understandably, an audience would obviously rather look at a young, pretty girl dancing, than a middle aged housewife?
I`m a newbie to dance, and live in an area where physical beauty is fawned over and prized, over and above talent and smarts!
It takes courage for me to get up and dance, even though I have only done so for those very close to me...the thought of ever dancing in front of a wider audience...well...I`ll probably always be a `livingroom` dancer.
There just seems to be so much pressure on women to keep looking beautiful for longer, no matter what their age, and it feels kinda scary sometimes....
I`m not at the other extreme...I don`t believe we should let ourselves go, taking pride in how you look is natural and good and healthy....but..sometimes I DO think it is taken to extremes, with the emphasis on youth and beauty even in middle aged women who`ve raised families, worked, whose lives can show in their faces, in character...
Does lack of conventional physical beauty make a difference to a dancer? I would have thought not, that the dance holds more meaning than that, but what about to the audience? What is it like where you live?:think:

The problem with this thread is that we cannot possibly be subjective as we are all dancers. We know that it's not just about what's on the outside. But what about the GP?

 

[Kharmine]

MAN???? LOL

sorry I couldn't resist that, it was probably a typo :lol:

Nope! I did mean MAN -- as in, a guy.

The point is, an ordinary-looking male human does not represent the conventional idea of female beauty. But I've seen a passel of men transform themselves into the most astonishing illusions of beautiful women with just the right set of tools -- mental and physical. (They've ranged from straight men in the theater to gay men as drag queens.)

If men can do it, then sisters, any of us can do it! Yeah, some of us have a bit more advantage with the primary materials than others -- physical beauty and ugliness are still in the mind of beholder when it comes to presenting the illusion.

Kharis, I know of no one -- belly dancer or not -- who is truly objective about what defines human beauty. I doubt even the total objectivity of the Dalai Lama!

The general public may have tendencies, but it's still made up of individuals and individuals' tastes vary. Or, at least, they vary until grouped together when, somehow, the majority opinon/reaction does tend to influence and override dissent!

What we as dancers do is observe. We observe audience reaction to costume, lighting, music, individual moves, choreography as well as improvisation.

SmilingMarie, you make a good point from your own experience. ME tastes, in general, have changed over the decades just as Western tastes, in general, have changed. You can look at old movies from Hollywood to Cairo and see a different idea of feminine beauty from a lot of what we see today.

Used to be that all over the world a plump woman, say, was the epitome of beauty. It still is in some cultures. Preferences in hair, skin, eyes, shape, etc. go in and out of fashion. "Exotic" has a different meaning in different cultures, but the common thing dance audiences seem to prefer is a woman who does not look like the average girl-next-door (depending on one's neighborhood!).

Experienced belly dancers might hone in past the illusion more successfully, because for them there are things more important then whether the performer is a slim, young, beautiful woman. They still react to illusion, mind you, because their wiring is still human, but their priorities -- and thus, their focus -- are different.

General audiences want illusion, period. They want glamor and escapist fare. Here's the good news: We can give it to 'em. But we have to be wise as to our own limitations and those of whatever venue we're going to be presenting our illusion.

Everything else being the same, we can get very different reactions to our performances depending on whether we're performing in a high school gym or an attractive ME restaurant, an outdoor Renaissance fair stage or a glitzy nightclub. Whether we use live music or recorded, flattering lighting or just whatever's there.

When the other factors are helpful, a good belly dancer can look nothing like what the audience's stereotyped expectations might be and she can still knock 'em off their chairs.

 

[SmilingMarie]

SmilingMarie, you make a good point from your own experience. ME tastes, in general, have changed over the decades just as Western tastes, in general, have changed. You can look at old movies from Hollywood to Cairo and see a different idea of feminine beauty from a lot of what we see today.

Used to be that all over the world a plump woman, say, was the epitome of beauty. It still is in some cultures. Preferences in hair, skin, eyes, shape, etc. go in and out of fashion. "Exotic" has a different meaning in different cultures, but the common thing dance audiences seem to prefer is a woman who does not look like the average girl-next-door (depending on one's neighborhood!).

Experienced belly dancers might hone in past the illusion more successfully, because for them there are things more important then whether the performer is a slim, young, beautiful woman. They still react to illusion, mind you, because their wiring is still human, but their priorities -- and thus, their focus -- are different.

General audiences want illusion, period. They want glamor and escapist fare. Here's the good news: We can give it to 'em. But we have to be wise as to our own limitations and those of whatever venue we're going to be presenting our illusion.

Everything else being the same, we can get very different reactions to our performances depending on whether we're performing in a high school gym or an attractive ME restaurant, an outdoor Renaissance fair stage or a glitzy nightclub. Whether we use live music or recorded, flattering lighting or just whatever's there.

When the other factors are helpful, a good belly dancer can look nothing like what the audience's stereotyped expectations might be and she can still knock 'em off their chairs.

I agree with all of this - very well put! :clap:

 

[Oresai]

Thanks all, for your responses...it certainly helps put body image and the cultural differences of beauty into perspective for me. (and helps a great deal with self confidence when it comes to dancing for friends. ):think::dance:
Though, when it comes to presenting the illusion, I think the only hope for me is good old fashioned Hollywood style soft focus, har! :lol:

 

[lizaj]

Can I point you to the thread I just posted on BGT.
Yes a rather dumpy middle aged Scot, in need of a makeover whose looks became irrelevent with that Beautiful voice.
Now I am not saying looks are irrevelent in entertainment . of course they are but it depends on the level and the situation as well. We are often attracted by people who are less than perfect as we identify them BUT of course hirers and firers son't always consider that.They take a one dimension tack: beautiful little thing with little dance talent will be better than plain jane who really can do it. Often they are wrong and it may be harder for little miss to shape up her talent than for plain jane to scrub up well.
Pointer favourite fairy story of many :the ugly duckling
On a holiday in morocco we wre treated to a belly dance display by a girl who cold best be described as "horsey", big and not even very shapely she never the less danced well, smiled a lot and eneded with with a lot of people enjoying themselves and applauding her wildly.
Of course the most successful and talented dancer will be pretty with a good body and so sexually alluring in a tasteful way but the cleverest don't push it in order to keep the girls from going green.
AND dancer personality goes a long long way ,in fact without it she'll probably go no where! Take a fabulous looker but ice cold, take a dancer of equal talent but warm and giving of her dance and not quite as "gorgeous" bodily and facially and you know darn well who'll come out top .

 

[Kharmine]

Absolutely, lizaj.

 

[Amulya]

A thing that happens a lot is when people hire a belly dancer, they don't even know what she looks like. That's because they might hire her because they heard about her from others, hired her from an agency, or because the dancer they wanted couldn't come and she give the number of another. Some dancers are not online, so the person hiring doesn't know about the looks. But often things still go right this way. Lots of people are just amazed at the costumes, the dancing etc. So that's the good part of it

 

[Moon]

Tastes differ, also in the audience. No matter how beautiful you are, there will always be people who don't understand it's about how you dance, not how you look, and who will think you're too white, too dark, too fat or too skinny, too young, too old or the wrong gender to be a bellydancer. They are free to look at someone else if they please. It's yourself and those people in the audience who can truely appreciate the dance it's most worth dancing for. Why trying to please some shallow folks? Give them a mirror to stare at their own perfection instead.

 

[Amulya]

Tastes differ, also in the audience. No matter how beautiful you are, there will always be people who don't understand it's about how you dance, not how you look, and who will think you're too white, too dark, too fat or too skinny, too young, too old or the wrong gender to be a bellydancer. They are free to look at someone else if they please. It's yourself and those people in the audience who can truely appreciate the dance it's most worth dancing for. Why trying to please some shallow folks? Give them a mirror to stare at their own perfection instead.

That's so true, no one can ever be perfect for every audience. And it's strange how people's ideas of what a belly dancer looks like difer. The most comon thing I used to (and still sometimes) come across is that people have the idea that a belly dancer needs to be fat or at least chubby. That's what they say to me, they think I'm too slim. I'm slim, but not THAT slim. In this day and age where most people have seen belly dancers it's weird they still got that idea. And then there are others who have a complete opposite image as well.