Belly dance and religion

[Eve]

Interesting question. In spite of the willfulness we read about that occurred in the Garden of Eden, I believe that God wants us to worship Him of our own free will. It is through free will, or freedom of choice, that we learn the difference between good and evil. Much of religion is based on doubt, and our need to enquire when we have doubts. To "preprogram" us without free will/freedom of choice/doubt would make us automatons. In the Bible, you will find references indicating God wanted to destroy all His creative work as He felt He had made a mistake, but there were those, like Moses at Mt. Sinai, that made Him pause, consider, and make a new plan, working with what He had already created. I also believe that God changes with the times, giving us more information when He feels we are ready to understand, and exercise good stewardship. Examples include things like cloning, the secrets of DNA, etc.

Hi Harry,

Y'see I have issues with that as a tautology. God = omniscient. God creates man/the world, God admits to making a mistake.

Let alone getting in to problems of backing up the source for that Godly quote. I don't think I've ever been so presumptuous to second-guess God.

I'm not going to get in to a scrap on the topic because it's not necesary. You believe as you wish - I think otherwise and neither one of us should get a headache about it

 

[Harry]

I have to agree, Kharis. There is absolutely nothing wrong with shit... It just becomes a matter of where you deposit it...

The same analogy (to get back on the topic of this thread) applies to belly dance. It's not belly dance that is bad in the eyes of religion, it is the perception of belly dance that some individuals may have in the name of religion. Their free will finds it objectionable. My free will finds it as another way to praise all that God has given us.

 

[Harry]

...
Y'see I have issues with that as a tautology. God = omniscient. God creates man/the world, God admits to making a mistake.
...

I had difficulty with that, as well, Eve, and perhaps I still do. It's a tough one. The specific reference is in Exodus 32, the story of the golden calf. One Jewish theologian I know of takes special note of God's intent to "consume Israel" and start in again with Moses, who talked Him out of it. Why would you "consume" and start in again?

In another sense, you're right... No need in getting a headache over things that happened long ago. Religion should be more proactive. This is, after all, a belly dance forum.

 

[Kharis]

Hi Harry,

Y'see I have issues with that as a tautology. God = omniscient. God creates man/the world, God admits to making a mistake.

Let alone getting in to problems of backing up the source for that Godly quote. I don't think I've ever been so presumptuous to second-guess God.

I'm not going to get in to a scrap on the topic because it's not necesary. You believe as you wish - I think otherwise and neither one of us should get a headache about it

i guess the lesson here is don't believe everything you read in the Bible. I certainly don't. I should think God wouldn''t be arsed reading it either.

 

[Eve]

i guess the lesson here is don't believe everything you read in the Bible. I certainly don't. I should think God wouldn''t be arsed reading it either.

I'd hope he has other things to busy himself with.


My only concern are the folks who take it as the actual word of god, the types who insist the earth is only about 12,000 years old. I just don't understand the thinking that gets you to that point.

 

[Kharis]

I'd hope he has other things to busy himself with.


My only concern are the folks who take it as the actual word of god, the types who insist the earth is only about 12,000 years old. I just don't understand the thinking that gets you to that point.

You should try reading some Sylvia Brown... Now there's some interesting theories...

 

[Kharis]

I'd hope he has other things to busy himself with.


My only concern are the folks who take it as the actual word of god, the types who insist the earth is only about 12,000 years old. I just don't understand the thinking that gets you to that point.

12,000? How did they come to that figure?

 

[Eve]

12,000? How did they come to that figure?

Very scientific.
They counted up all the people in the bible.

 

[Ariadne]

My only concern are the folks who take it as the actual word of god, the types who insist the earth is only about 12,000 years old. I just don't understand the thinking that gets you to that point.

It can come from a complete understanding of the nature of God as explained in the Bible. One you understand that the rest makes sense as well. If you don't understand that almost none of it will make sense.

As for the "12,000" years or any other number the Bible only outlines the generations of man. How the earth was actually created is a matter of great debate among both Christian and non Christian society alike. I believe however (off the top of my head) the 12,000 years is a combination of the (app) 5,000 years of man and the 7 "days" to create the earth. Young-earth theories are not just the domain of some Christians mind you.

@Harry: since you understand the concept of agency and choice God wanting to destroy the Israelites isn't that much further. As long as he had Moses he still had the lineage that had been set aside for Christ to be born from. They make their choices they pay the consequences. The mistake wasn't God's it was man's... as usual. That's human nature though isn't it? Mind you from what I have read Exodus 32:14 was translated very poorly from the original. While it is absolutely mind boggling how unchanged the Bible is for the most part considering just how old it is and how many times it's been translated there are some sections that have been corrupted over time, that being one of them.


PS. Eve, it really isn't nice to mock someone else's beliefs even if you don't understand them. Disagreeing is fine of course but mockery... Well, would you like it if it was you?


* * * *

How all this effects bellydance? It doesn't really as long as you follow the precepts of your religion. My own does not have anything against dance, just against dancing provocatively or seductively; there are also rules on modesty. As long as I follow the spirit (as well as letter) of those rules there is no problem. I wish everyone would follow their own beliefs instead of being swayed by popular opinion or even personal desire.

 

[Eve]

It can come from a complete understanding of the nature of God as explained in the Bible. One you understand that the rest makes sense as well. If you don't understand that almost none of it will make sense.

As for the "12,000" years or any other number the Bible only outlines the generations of man. How the earth was actually created is a matter of great debate among both Christian and non Christian society alike. I believe however (off the top of my head) the 12,000 years is a combination of the (app) 5,000 years of man and the 7 "days" to create the earth. Young-earth theories are not just the domain of some Christians mind you.

@Harry: since you understand the concept of agency and choice God wanting to destroy the Israelites isn't that much further. As long as he had Moses he still had the lineage that had been set aside for Christ to be born from. They make their choices they pay the consequences. The mistake wasn't God's it was man's... as usual. That's human nature though isn't it? Mind you from what I have read Exodus 32:14 was translated very poorly from the original. While it is absolutely mind boggling how unchanged the Bible is for the most part considering just how old it is and how many times it's been translated there are some sections that have been corrupted over time, that being one of them.


PS. Eve, it really isn't nice to mock someone else's beliefs even if you don't understand them. Disagreeing is fine of course but mockery... Well, would you like it if it was you?


* * * *

How all this effects bellydance? It doesn't really as long as you follow the precepts of your religion. My own does not have anything against dance, just against dancing provocatively or seductively; there are also rules on modesty. As long as I follow the spirit (as well as letter) of those rules there is no problem. I wish everyone would follow their own beliefs instead of being swayed by popular opinion or even personal desire.

I take it you're a Christian? Then forgive me.


If I am created in God's image that must also go for my sense of humour. Maybe my God is the one of love from the new testament & maybe yours is the wrathful one of the old testament.

I'm sorry if you don't like scientific theory conflicting with your personal beliefs but I don't believe in invisible men who live in the sky, I don't believe the Earth is only 12,000 years old (insanity), I don't believe in organised religion adding their own set of sub-rules to the original 10 which people still haven't got the hang off and people who spout off 'what God actually meant was', you have to admit that is arrogant?

If people don't wish their views to be questioned they shouldn't state them in pubic. If you want to mock me please do but it won't be down to my belief in fairies.

 

[Harry]

...
@Harry: since you understand the concept of agency and choice God wanting to destroy the Israelites isn't that much further. As long as he had Moses he still had the lineage that had been set aside for Christ to be born from. They make their choices they pay the consequences. The mistake wasn't God's it was man's... as usual. That's human nature though isn't it? Mind you from what I have read Exodus 32:14 was translated very poorly from the original. While it is absolutely mind boggling how unchanged the Bible is for the most part considering just how old it is and how many times it's been translated there are some sections that have been corrupted over time, that being one of them.

Point taken, Ariadne. I think I may have stated it just a little off center. Indeed, the Israelites made the mistake, and almost experienced God's wrath (destruction), but for the intervention of Moses pleading that God destroying the Israelites would be damaging to His (God's) credibility, and his (Moses) facilitating another punishment.

As a general point, we know that theologians are continuously trying to unlock the mysteries of the Bible. We need to remember that many stories are passed down, and, in many cases, embellished. On the other hand, many stories have been verified by secular means. The bottom line, I have learned, is to not take all the stories in the Bible literally. However, if an individual chooses to do so, then that is their business.

How all this effects bellydance? It doesn't really as long as you follow the precepts of your religion. My own does not have anything against dance, just against dancing provocatively or seductively; there are also rules on modesty. As long as I follow the spirit (as well as letter) of those rules there is no problem. I wish everyone would follow their own beliefs instead of being swayed by popular opinion or even personal desire.

Agree wholeheartedly.

 

[Ariadne]

Thank you Harry.

I take it you're a Christian? Then forgive me.

Of course.

If I am created in God's image that must also go for my sense of humour. Maybe my God is the one of love from the new testament & maybe yours is the wrathful one of the old testament.

I believe in both actually and have no trouble reconciling the differences. I will agree though he definitely has a sense of humor and so should we.

I'm sorry if you don't like scientific theory conflicting with your personal beliefs

I don't have a problem with it actually, I love science and enjoy keeping up with the latest research in many areas. You see in my life I have seen many a "theory" that was treated as fact by society found to be inaccurate and modified if not thrown out completely. So as much as I enjoy studying science I try and keep both the bias of the researchers and the difference between a fact and a theory firmly in mind. So many area's of study that are considered settled fact by society are in fact not only theoretical but "in their infancy" according to the experts studying them. If they are prepared to question the evidence why shouldn't I too?

I don't believe in organised religion adding their own set of sub-rules to the original 10 which people still haven't got the hang of

But you say you're more likely to follow the New Testament? The 10 Commandments are from the Old Testament, the "sub-rules" are usually based on the teachings of Christ from the New Testament, a "higher law".

and people who spout off 'what God actually meant was', you have to admit that is arrogant?

That depends on whether it is conjecture (and they admit it) or if it is firmly based in scripture. There are some very blunt scriptures on what is and is not allowed that many people ignore completely because they don't like them. In fact the usual excuse is "well God didn't mean it that way" which appears to me to be the same as your question.

If people don't wish their views to be questioned they shouldn't state them in pubic.

Of course but public discourse and discussion is not the same as making fun of those beliefs. You said yourself you don't understand the mindset, why not just ask?

I have spent a lot of time in my life trying to learn about all types of beliefs religious or non-religious, Christian and non-Christian alike. When I want to learn why someone thinks or believes what they do I try to go to the source; members who actually live their beliefs and writings endorsed by the church or hierarchy. I may not agree with everything I learn but I have always found it to be worth the effort. The most frustrating thing to me in my search is people who define their beliefs not by what they believe in but what they don't believe in. If that is the basis of someones faith/belief do they actually believe in anything at all?

If you want to mock me please do

I would rather not if you don't mind. Discussion is always to be preferred over ridicule. A good joke won't usually go amiss either.

 

[Eve]

Hi Ariadne,

I spent several years being dragged off to sunday school, spiritualist grandfather, catholic grandmother, CofE on the other side. So we had interesting Christmas lunches The most famous of which involved my catholic gran insisting 'oh course jesus was white!', to which my father countered, 'that's probably why they crucified him, the only white man in jeruselem'......
So I have a little background.

And despite me being a none believer I do find the subject matter fascinating.
Over recent years there have been several interesting documentaries discussing authorship, the role of women, the Arc etc

I've found this.
http://www.documentary-film.net/search/watch-free.php?&ref=148}


RE: scientific theory.
Physics is a theoretical science. Gravity is a theory taken as fact. Would you say that God is a theory taken as fact by some?

 

[Kharis]

I spent several years being dragged off to sunday school, spiritualist grandfather, catholic grandmother, CofE on the other side. So we had interesting Christmas lunches The most famous of which involved my catholic gran insisting 'oh course jesus was white!', to which my father countered, 'that's probably why they crucified him, the only white man in jeruselem'......
So I have a little background.
?

LOL funny story. Don't you just love family get togethers. My mum was convent educated..and used to regale us with stories of being beaten by the nuns. Mind you, she did have a fabulous education.

 

[Harry]

...
RE: scientific theory.
Physics is a theoretical science. Gravity is a theory taken as fact. Would you say that God is a theory taken as fact by some?

Eve, that really is an excellent question, which I do not think has a simple "yes" or "no" answer. Some answers to that question are in a book I recently finished, entitled, "God According to God" by Gerald Schroeder, an M.I.T.-educated physicist and Jewish theologian.

 

[Eve]

LOL funny story. Don't you just love family get togethers. My mum was convent educated..and used to regale us with stories of being beaten by the nuns. Mind you, she did have a fabulous education.

yep. Fun times despite all the fighting:lol:

Maybe she knew the same nuns as my nan?

Long story short-she was in a Father Hudson childrens home but ran away because of the nuns being more of the hell fire and brimstone type rather than love and light. They'd have you working all day and you'd get an orange.

 

[Ariadne]

Hi Ariadne,
...

RE: scientific theory.
Physics is a theoretical science. Gravity is a theory taken as fact. Would you say that God is a theory taken as fact by some?

Funny you should mention gravity as that happens to be one of the area's of scientific study I have been following. Discoveries on gravity in the last decade not only indicate it is firmly a theory but that several parts of the theory considered to be foundational to the entire concept are being called into question as to how it actually works... but that is entirely off topic.

God a theory? Maybe. People rarely apply scientific theory to The Gospel in spite of the fact that what we know of as the scientific method is clearly outlined in the Bible as the means of finding out whether the teachings in it are true or not, Question > Study > Test > Results. Maybe that is why I have little trouble with following both. That's the interesting thing about both however, truth is truth whether we know what it is or not, and finding that out is the study of a lifetime. If God does exist then that is a truth/fact and those who believe it are not making a mistake. It is only if he doesn't that it is merely a theory and they are mistaken. I suppose the only way to find out for yourself is to test it... but again that is all probably off topic since it has nothing to do with dance either.



PS. I tracked down the source of the video you linked too. The author is a theologian who seems to use his view of religion to effect social change, which is of course not necessarily a bad thing, but does seem to be slanted to a specific bias. Whenever checking out new information I always look at the bias first so I can keep it in mind while looking at the information presented. I did find it interesting though that that particular video has been seized upon by some Islamists as a conversion tool.






... I am still afraid this is all off topic. hmmmm... applying the scientific method to dance. Can it be done? After all it isn't like some people haven't already turned it into a religion it's sciences turn! :lol:

 

[Harry]

... I am still afraid this is all off topic. hmmmm... applying the scientific method to dance. Can it be done? After all it isn't like some people haven't already turned it into a religion it's sciences turn! :lol:

Hi Ariadne,
Here's some science: Dance is healthy, right up there with smiling and laughter. And, to add religion to it, consider Psalm 150. :dance::dance::dance:

 

[Kharis]

Hi Ariadne,
Here's some science: Dance is healthy, right up there with smiling and laughter. And, to add religion to it, consider Psalm 150. :dance::dance::dance:

Religion, like politics, has no place in the entertainment arts. God, I so wanted to stick Billy Bragg's songs up his bum and put a match to them. And as for Sinead O'Connor.....! I do feel that song and dance should be done for the joy of it and share in that joy with others....not a platform for someone to start spouting off from. Where's me flameproof drawers..?

 

[Reen.Blom]

Hi Ariadne,
Here's some science: Dance is healthy, right up there with smiling and laughter. And, to add religion to it, consider Psalm 150. :dance::dance::dance:

I bet its your favourite!:lol::lol::lol: