Harry
Member
Yep!Recycled paper as well I guess.
Yep!Recycled paper as well I guess.
Oh about her tearing up Pope's picture? I think it was cool! She did apologize, but the message went out, and later said that she would not do it differently. :lol:
I think this is something she feels strongly about, cos of her childhood.
I guess we all percieve it in a different way, and I believe she managed to raise media awareness of the problem. So well done in my eyes!
Cool or not, it cut into people's beliefs. Can you imagine the furore had she criticised Islam in such a disrespectful way? I don't think it's cool at all, to diss religion in public like that. For millions of Catholics, it was disrespectful. I can appreciate where she was coming from, but she did it all the wrong way. She made herself look like a fool, barking at the moon and made no difference to anything, which was predictable.
Cool or not, it cut into people's beliefs. Can you imagine the furore had she criticised Islam in such a disrespectful way? I don't think it's cool at all, to diss religion in public like that. For millions of Catholics, it was disrespectful. I can appreciate where she was coming from, but she did it all the wrong way. She made herself look like a fool, barking at the moon and made no difference to anything, which was predictable.
To you her gesture is a sign of disrespect, to me a desperate shout for those that could not speak. Yeah 10 years before it went global. I admire artists who have the guts to stand up for what they believe in, especially when something like child safety is at stake. There are artists that name their dogs Jesus or Mohammed just be be disrespectful. And there are artists that put their career at stake because they cant keep silence.
Peace.
This is something of a ramble/train of though post I know :lol:
...someone would have called for her head, Salman Rushdie style or a Danish cartoon.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Muslim cartoon row timeline
What I find hypocritcal in the UK that we can turn on any number of comedy shows and people are taking the piss out of Christians, that's seen to be OK.
I think a key word you used was belief. Religion is not fact. I can believe any number of things it doesn't make them true, so why should I get bent out of shape if someone doesn't share that belief.
Well she attracted attention enough.... She knew she's gonna get stoned, but the crime is so appaling, so terrifying, and like she said 'having grown up as a pious child, i was raging because these people were turning people away from God' so I guess a bit of a childish act, but the one that shows her inner strength and conviction. PC would not always do the trick I guess.
You would also have to get ride of every single "ism" at the same time. Communism, socialism, liberalism, conservatism, even atheism. Human nature being what it is whenever someone feels a desire to dominate or control another, and gives into that desire, they will do their best to do so and will use whatever "ism"/tool is at hand for their purposes. A lot of good has been done by those following their beliefs as well. Unfortunately accepting that good means also accepting that people can do ill just as easily. It's called individual will/agency and unless you are willing to take away all choice or kill everyone in the entire world without exception you will never be ride of it. Just remember how many people were killed in Germany, Russia, and China; religion had nothing to do with that. In fact they tried their best to suppress religion because it had the audacity to say what they were doing was wrong. Nobody likes hearing that especially when it's true. Human nature.If I had my way, all religion would be abolished. There's too many wars, bloodshed and heartache caused by it. It seems it's always been an excuse to hurt and control other human beings.
wait so some celebrity ripped up a picture of the Pope because 4% of the priests in America have been charged/convicted of child molestation?
maybe i misread or didn't read enough...
but i'm missing the part where it's the Pope's or Catholicism's fault. i hate math so i'm going to burn a photo of Albert Einstein or one of a modern mathmetician? i dont see how that solves my problem, it would just make a stir among those who hate it as much as me and those who freaking love it, but....that's about it. something tells me it was a publicity stunt? i don't know, but it certainly got people talking, right?
to stay a little bit on topic, i am a Christian (pretty scientific too, nondenominational i suppose) and i still dance, i love it! of course a lot of the folks on my mom's side of the family are devout southern baptists and don't even watch me dance at family reunions or whatever, but fooey on them, if they don't wan to listen they don't have to. haha i even had one uncle ask my dad how he's ok with that (i was teaching my little cousins a mini class at the time) and my dad just laughed at him and said, "i'd like to see you bring this question up to her face."
wait so some celebrity ripped up a picture of the Pope because 4% of the priests in America have been charged/convicted of child molestation?
maybe i misread or didn't read enough...
but i'm missing the part where it's the Pope's or Catholicism's fault.
I think the anger was directed to the fact that rather than hand priests over to the police, it was hushed up and they were often just moved to a new parish to go on abusing kids.
Apples and Oranges I'm afraid; it's a matter of context. The turn your other cheek is in teachings about how to behave in your personal life when insulted or persecuted and is a "higher law". If more people turned the other cheek instead of going off half cocked over every real or imagined insult the world would be a lot more peaceful. The eye for an eye is a part of system of government laws (not person morals) and is stating that when someone does harm/breaks the law then the punishment needs to be equal to the damage done/crime. Any government should do the same in order to protect it's citizens. Governmental law vs personal behavior, apples and oranges. I may be a firm believer in mercy but I want my government to hand out Justice.But the problem with using the bible to back up your(not specifically yours EE just a general 'your') pov is that it is contradictory.
Turn the other cheek, no wait! An eye for an eye.
haha i even had one uncle ask my dad how he's ok with that (i was teaching my little cousins a mini class at the time) and my dad just laughed at him and said, "i'd like to see you bring this question up to her face."
It was a real problem, one specific to the US that had been growing from the seminaries themselves, and one that had been going on for many years. The thing is that from what I have read about how Catholicism works (any Catholics may correct me if I'm wrong) the Pope may be "Patriarch among Patriarchs" but each region is essentially autonomous. All the Pope could really do about it was condemn it, which he did. By tearing up his picture she insulted Catholics all over the world, did nothing to advance change, and endangered her career. It wasn't until a series of news reports that analytically outlined and brought to light exactly what was happening and what the US Catholic church was doing and not doing that an outburst of public opinion forced them to actually DO something about it.
Apples and Oranges I'm afraid; it's a matter of context. The turn your other cheek is in teachings about how to behave in your personal life when insulted or persecuted and is a "higher law". If more people turned the other cheek instead of going off half cocked over every real or imagined insult the world would be a lot more peaceful. The eye for an eye is a part of system of government laws (not person morals) and is stating that when someone does harm/breaks the law then the punishment needs to be equal to the damage done/crime. Any government should do the same in order to protect it's citizens. Governmental law vs personal behavior, apples and oranges. I may be a firm believer in mercy but I want my government to hand out Justice.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I think I would like your father!
Maybe turn this on it's head, maybe people x thousand years ago decided they liked to celebrate, song, dance, hey, have a party. But, for some people there has to be a reason, a why, a why do we do these things and then the thinkers thought, hey, lets create something to celebtrate, as we have run out just celebrating for the hell of it, it's getting tedious without a reason.
So partying went on in the name of something other than for the fun of it, hey more reasons to party, more reasons to enjoy the fun things of life more often and why not. But people can't party all the time, some work has to be done, so the thinkers thought to regulate the partying, just so someone would go and hunt something, gather something, and get some regular sleep.
So the people being party animals got to wonder why regular work and sleep was giving way to the usual and there asked the thinkers, the thinkers who had created the reason for more creative partying said there were times when to party and times to work, so we can have better parties with more food, drink and fun, and time for the hangover to go away. The partygoers asked when is the next party, what time is it. Well time the ancient peoples were aware of as sun follows night and night follows day, so why not count these happenings, as clearly they are a marker we recognise, and hey look, as the night follows day the land changes, some times its dark and cold, other times it is sunny and warm, it gets light every day, and it gets dark every day and that other thing we see in the sky sometimes when it's dark changes, sometimes we see it it other times not and sometimes when it is seen it is different, it changes, but there is a pattern to its change and hey look at that, look what happens when the thing that comes out in the dark sky is at it's brightest and biggest, all that undrinkable water comes further up the land, plants are different, pick them between these white thing in the night sky times and they are bigger and better, oh and those of us who are different, the pretty ones are not wanting to party.
This thing in the night sky is useful. Hey, the head has cleared and I feel more awake,we have not had a party for a few days, let's party, sod the gathing the wood, it's warm anyway, but the thinker says it's not time to party, so we must go on gathing wood and chasing creatures, we have to wait, bummer, oh well, something to count the days to, only x more get ups until we can go for it again and party, mind you secretly I feel better about it, as I have only just got rid of that sick feeling the liquid from those smelly plants gave, and the wood pile is looking a little meagre, yeah, the thinker is right, we'll wait.
Hey party time again, what's he saying, who, what, what's the thinker on about, oh, I see, the party is for something else besides having fun, it's different, but it adds a new dimension to the fun, fair enough, get on with the partying, though I must ask the thinker what's that all about. Oh, I see, I understand, fair enough, I admit, I was wondering about that stuff, good of the thinker to know that, but I admit the parties are better now, it seems we get in the mood many moons before and there are preparations, people enjoying themselves in their work, the expectation of the forthcoming event, and people practising what they do to enjoy themselves when they party.
Fair enough, it is better now, more work gets done, and we have more resources, though some of the other groups of people over the hill there seem not as fortuitous as us, maybe they don't want as much, but they are ok when we see them, though I must admit they got some unusual ideas.
Whose he, what's he saying, he's saying what, not seen him around here before, whats he babbling about, oh, I see, well that makes things simpler, I always had problems remembering all the things we were 'celebrating' when we party, there is a name that covers all of them, fair enough, party on.
What !, what now, just when we got used to the new name we are now being told the one name is not a name for what we were told and thought, how can that be, oh dear, we are being threatened, they are stronger than us, better do as they say for a quiet life, I can do my own thing in private, just go through the motions to keep them happy.
Well, life goes on now but no parties, all we seem to do is work and be told the one name isn't happy with us, because we are all bad. Oh, and the one name has a place we are told we will go to if we don't work and be good, but there is another place were partying goes on, where we can go and meet the one name and never want, as it seems we never have enough resources now, it gets taken off of us in the name of the one name and they have big threatening men with weapons to collect it and it goes behind high walls of stone.
Maybe the old times were better, but I must keep that to myself at all costs, as I have seen what has happened to others that felt the need to go back. Poor dear, she was such a lovely girl, but what they did to her and what a way to die, just because she loved to dance in the fields and woods, they said she had the evil one in her and they must find out who else is involved to save us.
That is actually easy, he symbolizes all of Catholicism even if he is not in direct control that is still the perception. Ripping up a symbol of what someone believe in is an insult to those who believe even if you do not. It is no different then ripping up anything else that symbolizes a belief. Maybe, to tie in with the dance, it would be no different then someone who hates bellydancing expressing it by taking someone's bedlah and performance wear and cutting it to shreds. You can argue all you want about whether it is true or compare it to idolism and it still won't change the fact it was an insult. If it hadn't been she probably wouldn't have done it.May I ask how the act of ripping up a photo is really insulting someone? It's a bit of paper afterall. If we're now saying that this bit of a paper is special because of who is on the other side. We need to ask what that special someone is symbolising. .....what does the Pope symbolise?
I will add to Ariadne's response with a couple of things that are, perhaps, a little bit stronger, some of which we have seen in the news:May I ask how the act of ripping up a photo is really insulting someone? It's a bit of paper afterall. If we're now saying that this bit of a paper is special because of who is on the other side. We need to ask what that special someone is symbolising....what does the Pope symbolise?
I will add to Ariadne's response with a couple of things that are, perhaps, a little bit stronger, some of which we have seen in the news:
Yes, the picture is only paper, but it is a symbol of faith for many. To my Jewish brothers and sisters, it is the Torah and the Mosaic tablets. To my Muslim brothers and sisters, it is the Quran and a picture of the Prophet. To my Christian brothers and sisters, it is the Bible and a picture of Jesus. To, some, a deliberate, public display of destruction or derision of any of these symbols is a most high offense or extreme insult.
Do we not owe it to our brothers and sister, regardless of faith, to respect their beliefs? To stay on topic, if there are those who think belly dance is immoral/sinful, that is their belief. We don't have to like what they believe, but, please remember, if you work at respecting their beliefs, they are mentally and morally bound to respect yours.
That is actually easy, he symbolizes all of Catholicism even if he is not in direct control that is still the perception. Ripping up a symbol of what someone believe in is an insult to those who believe even if you do not. It is no different then ripping up anything else that symbolizes a belief. Maybe, to tie in with the dance, it would be no different then someone who hates bellydancing expressing it by taking someone's bedlah and performance wear and cutting it to shreds. You can argue all you want about whether it is true or compare it to idolism and it still won't change the fact it was an insult. If it hadn't been she probably wouldn't have done it.