Harry
Member
Yep!Recycled paper as well I guess.
Belly dance and religion
- Thread starter chryssanthi sahar
- Start date
Cool or not, it cut into people's beliefs. Can you imagine the furore had she criticised Islam in such a disrespectful way? I don't think it's cool at all, to diss religion in public like that. For millions of Catholics, it was disrespectful. I can appreciate where she was coming from, but she did it all the wrong way. She made herself look like a fool, barking at the moon and made no difference to anything, which was predictable.
Reen.Blom
New member
Well she attracted attention enough.... She knew she's gonna get stoned, but the crime is so appaling, so terrifying, and like she said 'having grown up as a pious child, i was raging because these people were turning people away from God' so I guess a bit of a childish act, but the one that shows her inner strength and conviction. PC would not always do the trick I guess.
What I find disrespectful is 4% of all priests in the US at that time have been accused of sexual child abuse. At that time in 1992 it was still hush hush, as it was not until 2002 when official investigation has been conducted to estimate the scope of the problem.
To you her gesture is a sign of disrespect, to me a desperate shout for those that could not speak. Yeah 10 years before it went global. I admire artists who have the guts to stand up for what they believe in, especially when something like child safety is at stake. There are artists that name their dogs Jesus or Mohammed just be be disrespectful. And there are artists that put their career at stake because they cant keep silence.
Peace.
This is something of a ramble/train of though post I know :lol:
...someone would have called for her head, Salman Rushdie style or a Danish cartoon.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Muslim cartoon row timeline
What I find hypocritcal in the UK that we can turn on any number of comedy shows and people are taking the piss out of Christians, that's seen to be OK.
I think a key word you used was belief. Religion is not fact. I can believe any number of things it doesn't make them true, so why should I get bent out of shape if someone doesn't share that belief.
I don't think I'd mind upsetting a few misguided folk for the sake of raising the issue of child abuse, not just that but the very fact that the church worked to cover it up is truely disgusting. I'd suggest a little more disgusting than someone ripping up a photo.
No, to me the roots of her gesture was understood as I've already stated, and I find it disgusting that the abuse takes place under the so called protective love and light of religion. I dislike religion .... there is not a single one I find truthful, quite frankly. For me, Religion is a man made vehicle of manipulation and control. What I found tiresome was her way of dealing with this matter, the way she did it, then apologised, then took the apology back. Make your bloody mind up. Stick to the convictions. She didn't.
Despite my lack of faith in religion, I can still appreciate that most people hold it dear and the Christian faith in particular seems to be everybody's whipping boy. There is abuse within most religions. But you don't often see any celebs getting up there and dissing anything but Christianity. Why? Because it's safe to criticize Christianity, which at the moment seems to have no PC backing to discourage it.
If I had my way, all religion would be abolished. There's too many wars, bloodshed and heartache caused by it. It seems it's always been an excuse to hurt and control other human beings. So had Sinead O'Connor stood there and ripped up a piece of paper with DOGMA written on it, she may not have suffered quite the same backlash. But who knows.... eh?
This is something of a ramble/train of though post I know :lol:
...someone would have called for her head, Salman Rushdie style or a Danish cartoon.
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Muslim cartoon row timeline
Indeed. :think:
Like I said, it's 'safe' to take the piss out of Christianity. You wouldn't have dared to it when the Spanish Inquisition ruled the roost, huh?
Yes, you're right, of course. It is an appalling crime. It's so depressing when a 'trusted' institution like religion is open to such ghastly abuse.
Wonderland Wigs
New member
Seriously heavy!
Ouch this is a seriously heavy discussion - maybe a bit much for a Sunday afternoon. Nice to see so many views and opinions though and to express everything openly without abuse!:dance:
Ouch this is a seriously heavy discussion - maybe a bit much for a Sunday afternoon. Nice to see so many views and opinions though and to express everything openly without abuse!:dance:
Ariadne
Well-known member
You would also have to get ride of every single "ism" at the same time. Communism, socialism, liberalism, conservatism, even atheism. Human nature being what it is whenever someone feels a desire to dominate or control another, and gives into that desire, they will do their best to do so and will use whatever "ism"/tool is at hand for their purposes. A lot of good has been done by those following their beliefs as well. Unfortunately accepting that good means also accepting that people can do ill just as easily. It's called individual will/agency and unless you are willing to take away all choice or kill everyone in the entire world without exception you will never be ride of it. Just remember how many people were killed in Germany, Russia, and China; religion had nothing to do with that. In fact they tried their best to suppress religion because it had the audacity to say what they were doing was wrong. Nobody likes hearing that especially when it's true. Human nature.
Teaching our children (and having) self control and respect could solve a lot of our social issues with all of this. Unfortunately neither one is particularly "fashionable" right now.
eden eyes
New member
wait so some celebrity ripped up a picture of the Pope because 4% of the priests in America have been charged/convicted of child molestation?
maybe i misread or didn't read enough...
but i'm missing the part where it's the Pope's or Catholicism's fault. i hate math so i'm going to burn a photo of Albert Einstein or one of a modern mathmetician? i dont see how that solves my problem, it would just make a stir among those who hate it as much as me and those who freaking love it, but....that's about it. something tells me it was a publicity stunt? i don't know, but it certainly got people talking, right?
to stay a little bit on topic, i am a Christian (pretty scientific too, nondenominational i suppose) and i still dance, i love it! of course a lot of the folks on my mom's side of the family are devout southern baptists and don't even watch me dance at family reunions or whatever, but fooey on them, if they don't wan to listen they don't have to. haha i even had one uncle ask my dad how he's ok with that (i was teaching my little cousins a mini class at the time) and my dad just laughed at him and said, "i'd like to see you bring this question up to her face."
maybe i misread or didn't read enough...
but i'm missing the part where it's the Pope's or Catholicism's fault. i hate math so i'm going to burn a photo of Albert Einstein or one of a modern mathmetician? i dont see how that solves my problem, it would just make a stir among those who hate it as much as me and those who freaking love it, but....that's about it. something tells me it was a publicity stunt? i don't know, but it certainly got people talking, right?
to stay a little bit on topic, i am a Christian (pretty scientific too, nondenominational i suppose) and i still dance, i love it! of course a lot of the folks on my mom's side of the family are devout southern baptists and don't even watch me dance at family reunions or whatever, but fooey on them, if they don't wan to listen they don't have to. haha i even had one uncle ask my dad how he's ok with that (i was teaching my little cousins a mini class at the time) and my dad just laughed at him and said, "i'd like to see you bring this question up to her face."
I think the anger was directed to the fact that rather than hand priests over to the police, it was hushed up and they were often just moved to a new parish to go on abusing kids.
Dancing and the Bible: Is it OK?
For some folks think everything about the body is sinful - you're born a sinner - original sin.
You haven't actually done anything apart from being born but because sex is sinful -kaboom- all those little kids are condemned unless we save them.
But the problem with using the bible to back up your(not specifically yours EE just a general 'your') pov is that it is contradictory.
Turn the other cheek, no wait! An eye for an eye.
Ariadne
Well-known member
It was a real problem, one specific to the US that had been growing from the seminaries themselves, and one that had been going on for many years. The thing is that from what I have read about how Catholicism works (any Catholics may correct me if I'm wrong) the Pope may be "Patriarch among Patriarchs" but each region is essentially autonomous. All the Pope could really do about it was condemn it, which he did. By tearing up his picture she insulted Catholics all over the world, did nothing to advance change, and endangered her career. It wasn't until a series of news reports that analytically outlined and brought to light exactly what was happening and what the US Catholic church was doing and not doing that an outburst of public opinion forced them to actually DO something about it.
Apples and Oranges I'm afraid; it's a matter of context. The turn your other cheek is in teachings about how to behave in your personal life when insulted or persecuted and is a "higher law". If more people turned the other cheek instead of going off half cocked over every real or imagined insult the world would be a lot more peaceful. The eye for an eye is a part of system of government laws (not person morals) and is stating that when someone does harm/breaks the law then the punishment needs to be equal to the damage done/crime. Any government should do the same in order to protect it's citizens. Governmental law vs personal behavior, apples and oranges. I may be a firm believer in mercy but I want my government to hand out Justice.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I think I would like your father!
It was a real problem, one specific to the US that had been growing from the seminaries themselves, and one that had been going on for many years. The thing is that from what I have read about how Catholicism works (any Catholics may correct me if I'm wrong) the Pope may be "Patriarch among Patriarchs" but each region is essentially autonomous. All the Pope could really do about it was condemn it, which he did. By tearing up his picture she insulted Catholics all over the world, did nothing to advance change, and endangered her career. It wasn't until a series of news reports that analytically outlined and brought to light exactly what was happening and what the US Catholic church was doing and not doing that an outburst of public opinion forced them to actually DO something about it.
Apples and Oranges I'm afraid; it's a matter of context. The turn your other cheek is in teachings about how to behave in your personal life when insulted or persecuted and is a "higher law". If more people turned the other cheek instead of going off half cocked over every real or imagined insult the world would be a lot more peaceful. The eye for an eye is a part of system of government laws (not person morals) and is stating that when someone does harm/breaks the law then the punishment needs to be equal to the damage done/crime. Any government should do the same in order to protect it's citizens. Governmental law vs personal behavior, apples and oranges. I may be a firm believer in mercy but I want my government to hand out Justice.
:lol: :lol: :lol: I think I would like your father!
May I ask how the act of ripping up a photo is really insulting someone? It's a bit of paper afterall. If we're now saying that this bit of a paper is special because of who is on the other side. We need to ask what that special someone is symbolising. As only the last couple of pages seem to suggest everyone has got their own idea of what religion is and what those symbols mean - thinking for ourselves - that's good people. So if we follow this through I guess we next have to act what does the Pope symbolise? Again it's a diverse choice BUT let's not forget the position of God's right hand man on Earth it is a MAN made position - I recall something about God not being too keen on icons but there I go again trying to second guess the big guy.
Do we think that God was more upset by ripping a photo or raping kids. I'll go with option 2. I'd even go so far as to suggest he'd be quite pleased at those who confront and raise the issue.
There are a ton on things we could discuss but it all get's messy.
I'd love to post a routine from George Carlin about praying to Joe Pesci but I figure people will get upset by it. So I'll pop up a link. If you don't like effing and jeffing. Don't click. If you don't like to hear someone being critical of religion but trying to be funny with it then don't click.
Positive Atheism's Big List of George Carlin Quotations
YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit.
khanjar
New member
Maybe turn this on it's head, maybe people x thousand years ago decided they liked to celebrate, song, dance, hey, have a party. But, for some people there has to be a reason, a why, a why do we do these things and then the thinkers thought, hey, lets create something to celebtrate, as we have run out just celebrating for the hell of it, it's getting tedious without a reason.
So partying went on in the name of something other than for the fun of it, hey more reasons to party, more reasons to enjoy the fun things of life more often and why not. But people can't party all the time, some work has to be done, so the thinkers thought to regulate the partying, just so someone would go and hunt something, gather something, and get some regular sleep.
So the people being party animals got to wonder why regular work and sleep was giving way to the usual and there asked the thinkers, the thinkers who had created the reason for more creative partying said there were times when to party and times to work, so we can have better parties with more food, drink and fun, and time for the hangover to go away. The partygoers asked when is the next party, what time is it. Well time the ancient peoples were aware of as sun follows night and night follows day, so why not count these happenings, as clearly they are a marker we recognise, and hey look, as the night follows day the land changes, some times its dark and cold, other times it is sunny and warm, it gets light every day, and it gets dark every day and that other thing we see in the sky sometimes when it's dark changes, sometimes we see it it other times not and sometimes when it is seen it is different, it changes, but there is a pattern to its change and hey look at that, look what happens when the thing that comes out in the dark sky is at it's brightest and biggest, all that undrinkable water comes further up the land, plants are different, pick them between these white thing in the night sky times and they are bigger and better, oh and those of us who are different, the pretty ones are not wanting to party.
This thing in the night sky is useful. Hey, the head has cleared and I feel more awake,we have not had a party for a few days, let's party, sod the gathing the wood, it's warm anyway, but the thinker says it's not time to party, so we must go on gathing wood and chasing creatures, we have to wait, bummer, oh well, something to count the days to, only x more get ups until we can go for it again and party, mind you secretly I feel better about it, as I have only just got rid of that sick feeling the liquid from those smelly plants gave, and the wood pile is looking a little meagre, yeah, the thinker is right, we'll wait.
Hey party time again, what's he saying, who, what, what's the thinker on about, oh, I see, the party is for something else besides having fun, it's different, but it adds a new dimension to the fun, fair enough, get on with the partying, though I must ask the thinker what's that all about. Oh, I see, I understand, fair enough, I admit, I was wondering about that stuff, good of the thinker to know that, but I admit the parties are better now, it seems we get in the mood many moons before and there are preparations, people enjoying themselves in their work, the expectation of the forthcoming event, and people practising what they do to enjoy themselves when they party.
Fair enough, it is better now, more work gets done, and we have more resources, though some of the other groups of people over the hill there seem not as fortuitous as us, maybe they don't want as much, but they are ok when we see them, though I must admit they got some unusual ideas.
Whose he, what's he saying, he's saying what, not seen him around here before, whats he babbling about, oh, I see, well that makes things simpler, I always had problems remembering all the things we were 'celebrating' when we party, there is a name that covers all of them, fair enough, party on.
What !, what now, just when we got used to the new name we are now being told the one name is not a name for what we were told and thought, how can that be, oh dear, we are being threatened, they are stronger than us, better do as they say for a quiet life, I can do my own thing in private, just go through the motions to keep them happy.
Well, life goes on now but no parties, all we seem to do is work and be told the one name isn't happy with us, because we are all bad. Oh, and the one name has a place we are told we will go to if we don't work and be good, but there is another place were partying goes on, where we can go and meet the one name and never want, as it seems we never have enough resources now, it gets taken off of us in the name of the one name and they have big threatening men with weapons to collect it and it goes behind high walls of stone.
Maybe the old times were better, but I must keep that to myself at all costs, as I have seen what has happened to others that felt the need to go back. Poor dear, she was such a lovely girl, but what they did to her and what a way to die, just because she loved to dance in the fields and woods, they said she had the evil one in her and they must find out who else is involved to save us.
......................................................................................................
My belief, is that humankind are essentially party animals, we like to party and enjoy life, now some of us imbibe alcohol for fun, some sing, some dance and whatever else, use your imgination, but enjoyment is what we seek, those times when the heart is full of mirth, it is good for us and for those that believe in such things, good for the spirit, it makes us feel good and more benevolent to our fellow man. Now I cannot accept a religion that actively inhibits the joy of life, as I see it it is not for me, others can have it if that's their thing, but count me out.
I feel it is better to wonder than read the words written by man, whether a god spoke them or not, I take man as being the point of error and if truth, then the interpretation and context matter greatly and one thing I do know ask anyone the truth of a thing, and in their thoughts, they all have a different version. The act of teaching a single thought inhibits free will and speaks too much of control, we, humanity, are not logical thinking machines, we feel and that gets in the way of logic, we cannot be programmed completely, as free will will always burn even in the darkest of places, with the body imprisoned, the mind is free to wander.
Dancing is a joy to perform, and a joy to watch, it does occur it has been done in the celebration of life and for the continued celebration of life. Maybe even the word fertility has been taken to mean but one thing, that of child birth, but one must remember, it takes both male and female to create life and as regards this dance, hip movements are common to both genders in the creation of that life. With hip and back problems, well, everyone knows, the desire to create life is inhibited when pain and discomfort are present, not to forget the lasting after effects of vigorous movement when the person is unhealthy, pain creates lasting memories, our bodies are programmed to recognise pain as something is wrong and to be avoided. So, maybe fertility really means health, the continued health of everyone, female, and male.
But what does irk me, is why are we so prudish about the act of recreation of our own species, or even the simple enjoyment of each other. If that is a product of the belief in a name, then, to me, it is pretty twisted as we should be celebrating life, our life, and the life of others, life is celebration as without celebration, why live.
So partying went on in the name of something other than for the fun of it, hey more reasons to party, more reasons to enjoy the fun things of life more often and why not. But people can't party all the time, some work has to be done, so the thinkers thought to regulate the partying, just so someone would go and hunt something, gather something, and get some regular sleep.
So the people being party animals got to wonder why regular work and sleep was giving way to the usual and there asked the thinkers, the thinkers who had created the reason for more creative partying said there were times when to party and times to work, so we can have better parties with more food, drink and fun, and time for the hangover to go away. The partygoers asked when is the next party, what time is it. Well time the ancient peoples were aware of as sun follows night and night follows day, so why not count these happenings, as clearly they are a marker we recognise, and hey look, as the night follows day the land changes, some times its dark and cold, other times it is sunny and warm, it gets light every day, and it gets dark every day and that other thing we see in the sky sometimes when it's dark changes, sometimes we see it it other times not and sometimes when it is seen it is different, it changes, but there is a pattern to its change and hey look at that, look what happens when the thing that comes out in the dark sky is at it's brightest and biggest, all that undrinkable water comes further up the land, plants are different, pick them between these white thing in the night sky times and they are bigger and better, oh and those of us who are different, the pretty ones are not wanting to party.
This thing in the night sky is useful. Hey, the head has cleared and I feel more awake,we have not had a party for a few days, let's party, sod the gathing the wood, it's warm anyway, but the thinker says it's not time to party, so we must go on gathing wood and chasing creatures, we have to wait, bummer, oh well, something to count the days to, only x more get ups until we can go for it again and party, mind you secretly I feel better about it, as I have only just got rid of that sick feeling the liquid from those smelly plants gave, and the wood pile is looking a little meagre, yeah, the thinker is right, we'll wait.
Hey party time again, what's he saying, who, what, what's the thinker on about, oh, I see, the party is for something else besides having fun, it's different, but it adds a new dimension to the fun, fair enough, get on with the partying, though I must ask the thinker what's that all about. Oh, I see, I understand, fair enough, I admit, I was wondering about that stuff, good of the thinker to know that, but I admit the parties are better now, it seems we get in the mood many moons before and there are preparations, people enjoying themselves in their work, the expectation of the forthcoming event, and people practising what they do to enjoy themselves when they party.
Fair enough, it is better now, more work gets done, and we have more resources, though some of the other groups of people over the hill there seem not as fortuitous as us, maybe they don't want as much, but they are ok when we see them, though I must admit they got some unusual ideas.
Whose he, what's he saying, he's saying what, not seen him around here before, whats he babbling about, oh, I see, well that makes things simpler, I always had problems remembering all the things we were 'celebrating' when we party, there is a name that covers all of them, fair enough, party on.
What !, what now, just when we got used to the new name we are now being told the one name is not a name for what we were told and thought, how can that be, oh dear, we are being threatened, they are stronger than us, better do as they say for a quiet life, I can do my own thing in private, just go through the motions to keep them happy.
Well, life goes on now but no parties, all we seem to do is work and be told the one name isn't happy with us, because we are all bad. Oh, and the one name has a place we are told we will go to if we don't work and be good, but there is another place were partying goes on, where we can go and meet the one name and never want, as it seems we never have enough resources now, it gets taken off of us in the name of the one name and they have big threatening men with weapons to collect it and it goes behind high walls of stone.
Maybe the old times were better, but I must keep that to myself at all costs, as I have seen what has happened to others that felt the need to go back. Poor dear, she was such a lovely girl, but what they did to her and what a way to die, just because she loved to dance in the fields and woods, they said she had the evil one in her and they must find out who else is involved to save us.
......................................................................................................
My belief, is that humankind are essentially party animals, we like to party and enjoy life, now some of us imbibe alcohol for fun, some sing, some dance and whatever else, use your imgination, but enjoyment is what we seek, those times when the heart is full of mirth, it is good for us and for those that believe in such things, good for the spirit, it makes us feel good and more benevolent to our fellow man. Now I cannot accept a religion that actively inhibits the joy of life, as I see it it is not for me, others can have it if that's their thing, but count me out.
I feel it is better to wonder than read the words written by man, whether a god spoke them or not, I take man as being the point of error and if truth, then the interpretation and context matter greatly and one thing I do know ask anyone the truth of a thing, and in their thoughts, they all have a different version. The act of teaching a single thought inhibits free will and speaks too much of control, we, humanity, are not logical thinking machines, we feel and that gets in the way of logic, we cannot be programmed completely, as free will will always burn even in the darkest of places, with the body imprisoned, the mind is free to wander.
Dancing is a joy to perform, and a joy to watch, it does occur it has been done in the celebration of life and for the continued celebration of life. Maybe even the word fertility has been taken to mean but one thing, that of child birth, but one must remember, it takes both male and female to create life and as regards this dance, hip movements are common to both genders in the creation of that life. With hip and back problems, well, everyone knows, the desire to create life is inhibited when pain and discomfort are present, not to forget the lasting after effects of vigorous movement when the person is unhealthy, pain creates lasting memories, our bodies are programmed to recognise pain as something is wrong and to be avoided. So, maybe fertility really means health, the continued health of everyone, female, and male.
But what does irk me, is why are we so prudish about the act of recreation of our own species, or even the simple enjoyment of each other. If that is a product of the belief in a name, then, to me, it is pretty twisted as we should be celebrating life, our life, and the life of others, life is celebration as without celebration, why live.
Sounds like the bellydance world...perhaps it's becoming a religion.
Ariadne
Well-known member
That is actually easy, he symbolizes all of Catholicism even if he is not in direct control that is still the perception. Ripping up a symbol of what someone believe in is an insult to those who believe even if you do not. It is no different then ripping up anything else that symbolizes a belief. Maybe, to tie in with the dance, it would be no different then someone who hates bellydancing expressing it by taking someone's bedlah and performance wear and cutting it to shreds. You can argue all you want about whether it is true or compare it to idolism and it still won't change the fact it was an insult. If it hadn't been she probably wouldn't have done it.
Harry
Member
I will add to Ariadne's response with a couple of things that are, perhaps, a little bit stronger, some of which we have seen in the news:
Yes, the picture is only paper, but it is a symbol of faith for many. To my Jewish brothers and sisters, it is the Torah and the Mosaic tablets. To my Muslim brothers and sisters, it is the Quran and a picture of the Prophet. To my Christian brothers and sisters, it is the Bible and a picture of Jesus. To, some, a deliberate, public display of destruction or derision of any of these symbols is a most high offense or extreme insult.
Do we not owe it to our brothers and sister, regardless of faith, to respect their beliefs? To stay on topic, if there are those who think belly dance is immoral/sinful, that is their belief. We don't have to like what they believe, but, please remember, if you work at respecting their beliefs, they are mentally and morally bound to respect yours.
Reen.Blom
New member
Oh its not strictly american promlem, lost of cases in Ireland, Australia, etc. American is just most investigated.
Vatican condemned it in 2001, almost 10 years after she tore up that pic. LOOOOONG time of silence.
Catholic church (like most other churches) is an organization and the Pope as the head of it reperesents the position of it. To me it makes sense to protest against the silence and the efforts to hush and cover up the crimes.
Vatican condemned it in 2001, almost 10 years after she tore up that pic. LOOOOONG time of silence.
Catholic church (like most other churches) is an organization and the Pope as the head of it reperesents the position of it. To me it makes sense to protest against the silence and the efforts to hush and cover up the crimes.
First issue - The worship of idols is forbidden. Forgiveness is encouraged. I'm not going to speak on behalf of 2 billion Christians, I'm also bet there were a number who thought about it and went, 'y'know maybe she's got a point'.
People got their knickers in a knot over a photo - why weren't they so vocal about the crimes committed by priests and covered up by the church? That's what they should have been angry about.
People have allowed themselves to be mentally hamstrung by an artificial servitude that doesn't encourage meaningful debate.
Respect - which is all fine and dandy but when applied to the real world I don't think this holds up. Before anyone starts yes I know it's an extreme example.
Is it fair to say that Hitler and Stalin were wrong? Is it ok to say the slavery is wrong? I'm not going argue in favour of saying, 'well Adolf you may think sending jews to the gas chambers is ok but I think it's wrong but I respect your beliefs.'
It's not going to happen. Jesus in the temple didn't respect the rights of those business men looking to provide for themselves and their families.
People can think what ever they like it's when their ideas start to encroach on what we believe or on how we would like to act it becomes an issue - that is the only real link I can see betweed BD and religion.
Last edited:
If someone did that to a costume I may think they're a nut. If they were doing it a specific agenda or statement behind it I'd consider that and hell, may even support their action - that is the key to this incident - motivation. I'd also say that America is a much more openly religous country than the UK. If people go on the tv here and say they're a Christian you can feel a faint snigger go round the room, you're a nut! I know I'm over simplying things but I think this needs to be considered. I've never heard anyone say God bless the UK in 35 years.