Discussing non-english threads

gisela

Super Moderator
Fair enough Moon, as you seem to have equal objections to all non-english threads.
You are certainly allowed to speak you mind, but I thought it was a bit harsh (actually a bit rude) to call people rude without asking for a translation, please, first.
Thank's Mya for offering a different view on the subject.
 

Mya

New member
I think at the end of the day, there is some great conversation being missed on this thread but i also believe that it would not be happening if it was in English and much would be lost in translation.

I think you're probably very right about that as well.

Gisela - great move making this a thread of it's own - i was about to say that we're probably way off topic.
 

Marya

Member
And I do 'very dare' say it, I thought it was a well known fact that the Western world has deep rooted mistrust of all the is 'Arab'.

Caroline,

Many individuals in the western world as I know it (USA) have a deep rooted mistrust of all "other". Although I am pale skinned and a native of the USA, because I pursue weird interests (not just MED) I am continually perceived as (insert some slightly insulting word here like hippie, earth muffin, communist etc). It is a human failing that we (all of us in the world) continually have to deal with.

Here where I live, the main "other" is the indigenous Nez Perce tribe. I haven't heard any anti-Arab comments lately, but I hear anti-tribal comments all the time. I am sure the comments are ignorant and based on lack of understanding and fear of the unknown, not deliberately malicious.

Personal experience is the key, a logical, informative comment from me about how not all Nez Perce are (insert insult here) or even an observation that my own experience does not support what the other person just said, gets me nowhere.

Just an ironic observation that in the past the USA government was accused of being too pro-Arab or pro Turkish (ref. The Arabists, by Robert D.Kaplan, The Burning by Peter Balakian) Some authors observe that this pro-Arabic policy was in fact anti-Jewish policy being expressed.

The other human behavior we all have to deal with is that we primarily perceive everything as personal. So even though posters tried to carefully craft a message, someone will perceive it as personally directed at them.

Marya
 

nightdancer

New member
Moon,

I had the same objections, I got shut down, too. Everyone talks about how great it is that we have articulate speakers here, except that we cant learn from them because there is no translation provided, and the online translators dont work well. So really, that's a dead horse.

It is not a "deep seated mistrust" of Arabs. It is not a fear that I am being talked about. It is not a dislike of the native culture in which I am participating. It's the general frustration that there is an educational resource at my fingers, but we cant use it, because we dont have the foggiest notion as to where to start. Its like giving a dog a bicycle. Secondly, I do not single out arabic threads as having issues, I took issue with all the threads not having a translation. I dont care if they are there, just have the courtesy to provide even a basic translation so that we who are not speakers can at least put together what is being said. I'd be more than happy to find myself a dictionary and start peicing things together myself if I had even a basic roadmap. The words and characters can be really subtle, and I could be thinking a word means "slipper", but in reality, it means "fish". But the one time that Tarik asked, the person responding was so rude to him that I've not bothered asking. I'm not asking for something like a word for word, but a "We were discussing a wedding that took place and that said dancer was there, hated her costume, but she did a good job." to be able to frame something.

Ultimately, Moon, you are not alone in feeling this way, but really, the issue has been put to rest and nothing is going to change. /rant
 

gisela

Super Moderator
I'm sorry you felt you were shut down, Nightdancer.

I would love to understand as well but this is not the case.
My take on this is that arabic-speakers on this forum are not obliged to be teachers of their culture. They can hang out and join in as anyone. Just as professional dancers and teachers here are not obliged to answer every question about hip-drops. They do it if they feel like it and more cannot be asked.
 
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nightdancer

New member
Eh, its all good. You win some , you lose some, right? In the big, grand scheme, its not like the posts are holding the cure to cancer or the recipe for Dr Pepper, right?

Really, I just want the forum to be a happy place again.
 

nightdancer

New member
...The posts dont actually have the recipe for Dr Pepper, right?




PS-For context, the original recipe for Dr Pepper is supposed to be this super-secret thing that only 2 people in the corporation have the whole entire thing, everyone else just has their part and peice.
 

shiradotnet

Well-known member
I'm a bit puzzled by the assertion that this is an English-language forum. When I joined, I did not see any "rule" or "policy" stating this. Yes, the dominant language used here is English, but I don't recall seeing anything stating that other languages aren't welcome.

Although I've always posted in English here on Oriental Dancer, I have been known to start the occasional German- or French-language thread on bhuz. I would have felt rather annoyed if someone on bhuz had started a thread like this one complaining about my German- or French-language threads. I had my reasons for using German and French, and I assume that the people on the Arabic-language thread have valid reasons for wishing to use Arabic.
 

da Sage

New member
This is an English forum... why don't you provide a translation? It's not nice to exclude people by speaking your native language on a forum where most people can't understand that.

Why???

Dear Moon, I understand exactly what you mean. I rarely go over to the Arabic thread, because I don't understand any written Arabic. But I popped over just now out of curiousity, and I feel sad that I can't tell what is being said about the videos.:(

I offended some people a while back by saying that using Arabic in the middle of an English exchange was not nice to those who speak only English, and shortly after that the Arabic thread started up. I can't object to that because it is a whole new conversation, but I understand exactly what you're saying and why you feel that way. I personally am grateful that you choose to speak English in this forum most of the time, as my Dutch is worse than my Arabic!
 

lizaj

New member
I really can't see the problem with having non-English threads. I think it is good that this is recognised as an international forum and that folks who have English as a second language can freely discuss issues in their own first language.
If we are worried that people may be saying is abusive, inflammatory..well you know what they say about people talking behind your backs. SHRUG! It's far worse having someone being rude "to your face".
This is primarily a belly dance forum of course and I do wonder why people join it who are not either dancers, musicians or fans of the dance but hey ho they want to be part of the community and it's OK with Salome..who am I..?:cool:
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
here is a perfect example of English as a second language...

Perhaps and ? I carefully chose these words and symbols.

this does not mean my thoughts and questions are aimed at you or anyone in particular, but it is something which does occur all the time in the global sense.
The way you used it (in English) does implies that you believe Moon "in particular" to have a "deep seated mistrust for Arabs" as the person who started the thread. In essence you insulted her. It has to do with the subject of the sentence being those who might want rules against it in response to gisela who was in turn responding to Moon asking about it to begin with thus making the grammatical connection that you are speaking of Moon. It is the context in the conversation in general that causes it. Your statement may have been meant for gisela but as it is part of a larger conversation the context is applied to the entire context and not just the individual statement.



i understand the objections. It feels odd. as a matter of fact we are socialised that it is rude to speak in 'secret' in front of others, and this just seems to be an online version of that...
And that is it in a nutshell. I don't know about other countries but here it is considered very rude to speak in front of someone in a way that you know they will not understand, to exclude them in their presence. If it were "private" conversation there would be no problem but as it is a public forum it is similar to doing it to someone's face; something that I think that would bother just about anyone if it happened in person. By not providing at least a touch of explanation for those who don't understand it is the equivalent of being rude "to your face". I am reminded of when I went to a party where 90% of the people were from China and spoke Chinese (don't ask me which) in front of me throughout the night. Someone always took the time to let me know what they were discussing even though I couldn't really participate well so that I would not be excluded.

I admit it has bothered me to know that I am completely excluded from a thread I may find very interesting but I try not to let it get to me since I understand why those participating would want it.



BTW, if that recipe for Dr. Pepper is in there I want a copy too. ;)
 

kayshier

New member
Thank you Ariadne for admitting what i suspected motivated a lot of the objection to the thread, even those who aren't as forthcoming with their objections.

after reading shira's post though, i decided to peruse bhuz a bit...there are many arabic threads...some with phrases...like a lesson, some just as arabic conversations similar to this thread
nobody seems to have a problem with them from what i saw...there were even you tube videos on arabic pronunciations, phrases, even some funny stuff with an english speaking person trying to speak arabic and having problems.

not once did, did i see a thread asking "why?" or saying its an english speaking forum or we should only speak english in here, or somone interrupting the thread complaining.

i wondered for a bit and I suppose that at the end of the day its really about the posters and how they are received, and communication among posters...

i think a lot of the misunderstanding recently has gotten in the way and there are still undercurrents of animosity that we all need to get over. ALL of us.
it does not begin with whining or complaining that you feel excluded.
as i said before, i asked privately about the thread and i politely got answers.

i don't think there are any nasty trolls in here that would bite our heads off(yes pun intended :lol:)

that being said it was really refreshing to read the stuff on bhuz and it would be nice if people here could let go of whatever suspicions, feelings or inhibitions they have and just let things be.
 
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Awasef

New member
I'm not even going to comment on this. I'm done with this thread. How dare you?

Moon; I copy-pasted what you have written on your own profile:

Moon
Thanks for the warning Mya, I'm afraid I might have seen it a little too late but oh well, I expect they will completely ignore my post, or talk behind my back in Arabic, or say something in English which I will probably pretend to not have noticed.
I just really don't understand people who come to an international place, then the first thing they do is find people from their own country or a country who speaks the same language and talk with them in private. *sigh* Can't they just send each other pm's?

:rolleyes:


And you scold Caroline Afifi for suggesting you mistrust Arabs?
 

da Sage

New member
In defense of Moon, she has just spent several months practicing what she preaches in terms of speaking the language of the country she is visiting now, as well as speaking English here. Moon and I don't always agree on things, but I know she is coming from a place of openness and honesty, and I respect that.
 

PriscillaAdum

New member
Moon; I copy-pasted what you have written on your own profile:

Moon
Thanks for the warning Mya, I'm afraid I might have seen it a little too late but oh well, I expect they will completely ignore my post, or talk behind my back in Arabic, or say something in English which I will probably pretend to not have noticed.
I just really don't understand people who come to an international place, then the first thing they do is find people from their own country or a country who speaks the same language and talk with them in private. *sigh* Can't they just send each other pm's?

:rolleyes:


And you scold Caroline Afifi for suggesting you mistrust Arabs?


Word.
 

masrawy

New member
Thank you Awasef this is a perfect example of the 30% rule of tolerance from "Lake Taliban"

To moon
Your post has been ignored in the other thread, and we did not talk about you behind your back nor we live under your carpet waiting to jump on you .. so PLEAS stop being paranoid.



Moon; I copy-pasted what you have written on your own profile:

Moon
Thanks for the warning Mya, I'm afraid I might have seen it a little too late but oh well, I expect they will completely ignore my post, or talk behind my back in Arabic, or say something in English which I will probably pretend to not have noticed.
I just really don't understand people who come to an international place, then the first thing they do is find people from their own country or a country who speaks the same language and talk with them in private. *sigh* Can't they just send each other pm's?

:rolleyes:


And you scold Caroline Afifi for suggesting you mistrust Arabs?
 

~Diana~

AFK Moderator
Yesterday I actually popped onto the thread cause I was curious as to what, excuse my word use here, "squiggly lines" were. I could not figure out why there was all this pretty "squiggly lines" and then there was this writing with letters and numbers. I found that translators didn't work on it so I just wondered into another area of the forum after that.

I will say part of me is sad and slightly disappointed cause I don't know what is being written about and how interesting it might have been to me. Though I guess they are probably talking about what is already written in English in other threads. I don't feel left out at all but more along the lines of 'what are they saying and is it interesting to learn about but I can't know.'
 
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Mosaic

Super Moderator
Moon; I copy-pasted what you have written on your own profile:

Moon
Thanks for the warning Mya, I'm afraid I might have seen it a little too late but oh well, I expect they will completely ignore my post, or talk behind my back in Arabic, or say something in English which I will probably pretend to not have noticed.
I just really don't understand people who come to an international place, then the first thing they do is find people from their own country or a country who speaks the same language and talk with them in private. *sigh* Can't they just send each other pm's?

:rolleyes:


And you scold Caroline Afifi for suggesting you mistrust Arabs?

Awasef copy/pasting notes/messages from someone's profile with the intent to provoke (this is what it appears like), is not what we want to see on this forum:naghty:. Moon's message does not in anyway single out an individual language/or culture, so what was your reason for doing this?

Maybe it would be far better to have a conversation privately with Moon, explaining why you feel it is necessary to have a private language thread. I think many forum members have similar feelings as Moon does, but refrain from voicing them for fear of being ridiculed, be pointed at as racist or whatever.

Salome allows other language threads, so that is OK, some may not care one way or the other, some may not like it, but accept it, some may feel hurt and left out, but have come to a point of ignoring, other's want to know why it is necessary. Regardless of individual feelings, (everyone) Salome has a lot on her plate right now and certainly does NOT need another snarky war going on on her forum right now (or any other time - there has been enough of that)

* Sorry mods of this forum, but this is just getting too snarky!

If anyone wishes to speak to me about this, please refrain from posting in this thread and PM me instead. Thanks.
~Mosaic
 

lizaj

New member
I think Mosaic has a point. People are reluctant to challenge but I think Moon could have looked into the history of the establishing of the non-English threads and the problems we have had. This latest spat may have been avoided.
After all with the internet tools available we can all check up on what is being said in thread with a language we don't understand so why should someone be saying something in their own language they are afraid to post in English. Nothing is secret on the open board ...and no, you can keep that Dr Pepper sh$3e to yourselves .... I'll stick with Dandelion and Burdock;)
There may be less friction on Bhuz but frankly what with the endless succession of (albeit beautiful) costumes for sale, amateur doctors and problem page items, I'll still brave the flack on OD:lol:
 
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