Discussing non-english threads

[Moon]

Ok, I have not read everything being said after my last post here but I will just copy my reply on Caroline's pm in the very slightest hope people might finally understand where I'm coming from:

Hi Caroline,

Thank you for your message. I want to apologise for taking the Westerners mistrusting Arabs remark as an insult, because you probably didn't mean it as such, but I couldn't help I did and that's why I decided to make no further reply on the topic. I was very angry and that's usually no good condition to be in when making posts.
I realise you don't know me and that's probably why you and other people here don't understand what issues I have with this thread. First of all it has nothing to do with it being in Arabic. I have been raised with tolerance and respect to other cultures and religions, my parents even own the Quran. I've visited several Arabic-speaking countries and in general I find the people there very friendly. I'm interested in the more traditional styles of bellydancing and I've even tried to learn a bit of basic Arabic, though it's hard to learn from the internet and I have currently no time or money to study it seriously. Please understand it can be painful for those Westerners that are pissed off by their own country's media which tries to make people afraid of Muslims, when someone immediately mentions the anti-Arab attitude just because they say they disapprove of people speaking another language than English on an English forum. It's just as annoying as it is for Arabs when someone assumes all Arabs are terrorists. I would have spoken the same way if the thread had been in Swahili or any other language.
It is just a big pet peeve of mine, not just here but in any international place where people start speaking a language that most others can't understand. I've been called a traitor in the past by a bunch of Dutch people in an international chat box, just because I refused to speak in Dutch with them. I just don't understand why people do that on an international place, while there are plenty of places on internet where you can go to speak your own language. Sorry for making this into a long story but I hope giving you a bit more insight in who I am and how I think will assure you it has nothing to do with the thread being Arabic, just with the thread being non-English. To be honest I don't even care much for what is being said in there, it's more the principle.
Again, thanks for your pm,

Moon

And yes, my answer to Mya on my page includes the word "Arabic", because the thread where we were talking about happened to be in this language! Had it been in the north-eastern dialect of Kalaallisut I would have responded in exactly the same way. And now I won't respond in this thread anymore. Go ahead thinking what an evil anti-Arab person I am and finding "prove" for that in my profile for all I care.
As it is right now, yes I am upset and yes I am starting to regret coming back to the forum in the first place. Fortunately there are people here who know me well enough to understand I have no mistrust or hatred of any culture.

 

[gisela]

I don't get it either. Freddie, have you communicated with this person? I think it is pretty bad manners to keep posting suspicions about someone. I ALSO think it is bad form to copy/paste profile messages. I agree with Caroline that they are public and that you have to be aware that they could be read by anyone. Although just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD bring them up somewhere else.
About Awasef, who I am guessing you are referring to, those longterm members who have been communicating with her don't seem to have a problem with her. I would take that as a pretty solid indicator that she is just here as any other member, posting in those threads that feel relevant to her.
I'm sorry if I am talking on anyones behalf. Please correct me if I have made wrong assumptions.

 

[Mya]

I ALSO think it is bad form to copy/paste profile messages. I agree with Caroline that they are public and that you have to be aware that they could be read by anyone. Although just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD bring them up somewhere else.

I am in complete agreement with this. I however find it curious that the message was posted out of context i.e. without my initial message to Moon. That wasn't fair and i'm sure not everyone reading this thread went to Moon's profile to see what i said to her to begin with yet still judgements were made on her response.

Are people trying to put one against the other on this forum??? I don't understand it at all and i'm really feeling alot like Kayshier does with regards to this forum now.

Just in case anyone is interested and didn't go to Moon's profile; the message i sent her is as follows:

Watch out Moon - things have been INSANE on this forum recently with people flipping out and calling others all sorts of horrible names and things because of misunderstandings and assuming to know the motives of others' posts.

You're sweet and i don't want anyone to trip out on you because you're asking a question about something sensitive that was discussed before in your absence!

I think it's kind of ironic personally how this thread is panning out after i sent her that particular message.

Now with a huge headache,
Mya

 

[gisela]

Ok I went pretty off topic there myself as this thread was about how people feel about non-english threads. Sorry for that.

I cannot see anywhere in the rules that non-english threads are forbidden so therefore, regardless of how people feel about them, one must assume that they are allowed. Logical? yes.

Now with a huge headache

I agree Mya

 

[kayshier]

Moon,

although i am not sure you will be reading my message. thank you for your explanation.
while i might disagree with your principle, because i do not see this forum as an 'english only' forum, i appreicate your honesty.

i think it is arrogant to assume that because the primarly language spoken here is english it is an english only forum? are we now to nitpick between the Queen's english and American english? (considering that the forum is an american forum too?)

i don't think you are anti-arabic. what i do think however is that you were a bit rude to interrupt the thread with the outburst in the first place. i think the whole thing could have been handled privately.

instead your post, albeit as innocent as you were to previous events, may have been used as the mouthpiece for others who felt similarly discontented to voice their opinions. as a matter of fact it has gotten personal with one poster using the opportunity again to voice suspcion on the activities of another poster in here...that's really insulting btw. (moon i am not blaming you for this, i am just saying that you innocently opened the gate and all the horses that were kicking at it have bolted)

anyway. I will say this, I have communicated with the arab members of the forum in the hopes that i would have started a thread in which we could all learn arabic phrases. since that seems to be the problem for a lot of people...they cannot participate
but given the whole scenario that has taken place, i doubt very much that even with my good intentions this will happen.

the waters have been permanently muddied.

honestly, i don't think many realise how condescending their language is. speaking from a position of arrogance is one thing...speaking from that position and feigning ignorance is yet another....

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Kayshier,

I think that was very well stated and very insightful of the situtaion and where it went wrong.

I am personally not the best person to realise the million ways in which what i have said can be interpreted or indeed mis-interpreted, but it happens alot.

I shall endevour to word more carefully but I cannot promise it wont happen again or I will not be direct with my thoughts.

Thanks Mya for adding the other perspective on the message to Moon.

The problem with open messageing does mean it can be copied and pasted as indeed anything else on the internet which did not realise it would end up being discussed on the forum.

It is obviously not a big problem for Moon as she has responded by publicly announcing a Private Message she sent to me.

At the end of the day this is her chioce because they were her words, but did not include what I wrote to her.

I wrote to apologise for any misunderstanding and made it clear it was not personal to her as others here had tried to implicate.

 

[Marya]

I am thinking that it is perhaps a British/Western thing to think it is rude to talk in your own language when you can speak in English.

When I was a Peace Corps Volunteer, I was taught that since I could speak Spanish, it was considered rude for me to speak English (unless in private) in The Dominican Republic.

I tend to question these things and find it rather bizarre that people assume they are being spoken about if the language is not their own.

I hope that as the world becomes more multi-cultural this will change but I have observed this assumption over and over again. Even when I translated from Spanish to English for someone the suspicion that they were the topic of conversation remained. I am afraid it is part of human nature.

Marya

 

[kayshier]

When I was a Peace Corps Volunteer, I was taught that since I could speak Spanish, it was considered rude for me to speak English (unless in private) in The Dominican Republic.



I hope that as the world becomes more multi-cultural this will change but I have observed this assumption over and over again. Even when I translated from Spanish to English for someone the suspicion that they were the topic of conversation remained. I am afraid it is part of human nature.

Marya

marya, i beg to disagree (with the part in bold)

i think we are taught to be like this, fear what we do not understand or know, similar to many negative attitudes that people have been taught to harbour.

the whole thing is about suspicion and assumptions, but you know what they say about the spelling of ASSUME?

 

[karena]

Some thoughts on people feeling excluded from the Arabic thread, for what they are worth...

Imo people are excluded from threads on many different levels. Language is an obvious way, but it is imo way more complicated than that.

I think an example of what I am trying to say is this thread http://www.bellydanceforums.net/dance-styles/8220-rose-any-other-name-3.html

I have picked this thread, as I am one of the people who wrote lots in it, so hopefully I won’t offend anyone else.

Now this thread goes quite abstract, theoretical, and I can imagine for plenty of people it felt pretty pointless, circular and irritating. If people couldn’t understand, because they don’t think about things this way, they could have felt quite excluded from it.

Now I tired my hardest, to not make it exclusionary. I tried my best to write in such a way that was accessible and didn’t use terms that others wouldn’t understand. I chose not to write in academic speak. I also try to do this in everyday life. But, if I am feeling attacked, or undermined, or excluded, or belittled, I up the academic-speak in response. It gets people off my back and creates a space where I can control what it happening more.

Now re the Arabic thread, I think the context is massively important. Imo I think people need to think why people felt they wanted this thread, and maybe reflect on the forum as a whole rather than scapegoating people that reacted in this way.

There are other threads which started around the same time which people could also consider to be exclusionary. Sure they are, in theory, open to everyone who speaks English but if you don’t get the cultural references...

Some of the other controversial threads are also very exclusionary. I am not going to go there, but if you put yourself in someone else’s shoes and think how could they respond to such a thread, you might be able to see for yourself.

So, I’m not intending to criticise anyone. I honestly don’t believe that most people on here, in all the different ‘camps’ want to be intentionally mean to one another. But, there are more ways of being exclusionary etc. than the one that seems to have become the focus. People can do it inadvertently or deliberately, and in many different ways. Some are more obvious, some are more subtle.

Being excluded from some things is a fact of life - we can’t all go round in one big gaggle doing the same thing. People used to (and some still do) believe that there is a ‘way of doing things’ etc but this is to the exclusion of minorities, whoever they are in the particular context. And I just wanted to try and expand horizons on that a little.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

see... me again! :lol:

Watch out Steph... it is Rebecca throwing those rocks again!! :dance:

PS Karena, you are of course right...

 

[Ariadne]

Oh dear... well it seems i am better understood when spreaking the little Arabic i know.

Perhaps means perhaps and a question mark is what it is.

Oh I wish it were that simple in English. English grammar is hard for me at times and I grew up with it I can't imagine how hard it can be for someone who didn't. From the way you responded I inferred that it was merely a case of a grammatical misunderstanding and simply tried to explain the context as I hope someone will do for me when the positions are reversed (as I am sure will happen).

Do you have a problem with non English threads or exclusion?

No more then I already said. Kharis gave a very good example as to the reason for this. However as I also said I can understand why there would be one so I try not to let it bother me and, yes, I found your explanation more then satisfactory.



However, this all gives me an idea though I don't know how others would feel about it.


On another forum I have been involved with for years concerning Japanese entertainment there is a lot of interest in Japan; language, culture, history, even slang. A few years ago the site created a new forum section just for those topics. They even started a language classes thread where a member of the staff who spoke fluent Japanese would post a new "lesson" once a week on a phrase or common word/slang and others could ask questions about context and how it would be used. It may not be the most active section of the forum but it is possibly the most useful. With all the interest on this forum concerning Arabic culture and language perhaps the same thing could be useful here? A home for threads on the subject like the language threads, somewhere a person who doesn't know so much could comfortably go to ask questions on the subject?

 

[Marya]

marya, i beg to disagree (with the part in bold)

i think we are taught to be like this, fear what we do not understand or know, similar to many negative attitudes that people have been taught to harbour.

the whole thing is about suspicion and assumptions, but you know what they say about the spelling of ASSUME?

Kayshier,

I am glad you disagree, it is hopeful that I might be wrong, I want to be wrong (in this case)

and yes I do know what they say about Ass u me.

Marya

 

[Afrit]

Why should I feel embarrassed? If I was in a group that spoke English and there was one person who's English was not so good, I would go out of my way to slow down and explain as best I could to that person what was being said. I would not turn my back on them, as the band did to me, and make them feel excluded.

Although it is "nice" to include everyone - it may have meant that the band could not discuss what they wanted to. Not because they did not want you to hear but because their English may not have been deep enough for a "real" conversation. Many "English speakers" have a limited ability to communicate subtleties or ideas outside their normal English range. For instance a hotel clerk may be fine discussing concepts relating to rooms, bathrooms, rates etc but might really struggle expressing views on politics in foreign language.

 

[Afrit]

Now this thread goes quite abstract, theoretical, and I can imagine for plenty of people it felt pretty pointless, circular and irritating. If people couldn’t understand, because they don’t think about things this way, they could have felt quite excluded from it.

Now I tired my hardest, to not make it exclusionary. I tried my best to write in such a way that was accessible and didn’t use terms that others wouldn’t understand. I chose not to write in academic speak. I also try to do this in everyday life. But, if I am feeling attacked, or undermined, or excluded, or belittled, I up the academic-speak in response. It gets people off my back and creates a space where I can control what it happening more.

Good point. So we should only speak in language that (say) 3 std devs can understand. Would that be the level of what, a not too bright 10 year old? No big words. No subcluases. No abstract ideas. Nothing that requires more background work than a quick flick over Wikipedia?

Maybe we should apply this to the dance too. It is so elitist to expect people to be able to walk and shimmy at the same time. Let's ban it!

 

[Kashmir]

Although it is "nice" to include everyone - it may have meant that the band could not discuss what they wanted to. Not because they did not want you to hear but because their English may not have been deep enough for a "real" conversation. Many "English speakers" have a limited ability to communicate subtleties or ideas outside their normal English range. For instance a hotel clerk may be fine discussing concepts relating to rooms, bathrooms, rates etc but might really struggle expressing views on politics in foreign language.

Something even simpler. I'm currently making exams - many of whom are taken by English as a second language students. In casual language use of "will" "would" "may" "might" etc is irrelevant, but in exam land "the fuse will blow" gets no marks. While the fuse might/could/would under these circumstances blow gets the mark. Often if you want precision you need a very good understanding of the language and what exactly it means - not just near enough.

 

[khanjar]

I just wonder what will solve this current issue, or will it become yet another stand off?

In a world full of suspicion, enemies and bloodshed, can we not just get on here, share our interest in what this website is about. We are not the media hellbent on a story, we are just people communicating worldwide.

Come on people, put the differences aside and show the world people want to get on.

I wonder, it is a pity esperato died out, it might have been the answer to all this mis communication, everybody learns the same as a second and most useful language.

 

[Kashmir]

I wonder, it is a pity esperato died out, it might have been the answer to all this mis communication, everybody learns the same as a second and most useful language.

No - see above. Real communication needs a really good grasp of the language by all speakers. The only advantage would be to cripple every one by making them communicate in an unnatural language. But even then some people are more gifted in learning languages than others.

 

[da Sage]

No - see above. Real communication needs a really good grasp of the language by all speakers. The only advantage would be to cripple every one by making them communicate in an unnatural language. But even then some people are more gifted in learning languages than others.

I agree...some things just do not translate. The question is whether incomplete communication with all is better than (almost) complete communication with a few.:think:

 

[karena]

Come on people, put the differences aside and show the world people want to get on.

I wonder, it is a pity esperato died out, it might have been the answer to all this mis communication, everybody learns the same as a second and most useful language.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I wish people would embrace and accept difference, and also accept conflict as part of the process of human interaction. For me putting differences aside and just getting along means the majority (whoever they are in whatever context) get to be who they are at the expense of others. I am sure no-one means it that way, but it is something that is so commonly said without the true implications being thought of.

And re Esperato, I think everyone on here does speak the same language, and others too.

 

[shiradotnet]

I am bewildered by the attitude some people have that this is "an English forum" and therefore speaking other languages is not welcome. If Salome has not posted an English-only policy, why are others trying to create one?

I personally LIKE the idea of a forum where people are free to speak whichever languages they feel comfortable speaking.

I see this forum as being like a large ballroom containing a cocktail party. Some large signs have been posted on the walls indicating that people who want to talk about dance styles can congregate in one part of the room, those wishing to discuss music can congregate in another, those wishing to discuss performance in another, and so on. Around each of those signs, smaller clumps of people have formed to discuss specific topics. For example, near the Performance sign a clump of people is talking about how to deal with a veil sticking. Near the Beauty and Fitness sign, a group of people is talking about how to deal with excess belly hair. People are free to wander around the ballroom and join any group of people whose conversation happens to catch their attention. If they get bored with one, they can look for another that interests them more.

To me, the Arabic-language thread is just one of many groups of people who struck up a conversation in this big ballroom. Doesn't suit you? Fine, find another. There are plenty of others to choose from.