Recnadocir
New member
Shanazel, you have a bright future in politics. Or the stage, either way, I salute you!
Feminine essenced dance
- Thread starter Sharif
- Start date
Aisha Azar
New member
Feminine essence, etc.
Dear Tarik,
Thanks for the info on Turkey. I thought it might be about the same but I have never had a chance to talk to Turks at length, so yu have added greatly to my knowledge. BTW there is a young woman teaching on an internship at OMI in New York right now. You might have met her. her name is Jennet. Tallish blonde and about 24. She just returned from Turkey where she is studying the culture/dance in depth. Fabulous dancer and I hope you two manage to connect. I am finally getting around to studying Turkish Rom and belly dance with her and she is wonderful!
REgards,
A'isha
Dear Tarik,
Thanks for the info on Turkey. I thought it might be about the same but I have never had a chance to talk to Turks at length, so yu have added greatly to my knowledge. BTW there is a young woman teaching on an internship at OMI in New York right now. You might have met her. her name is Jennet. Tallish blonde and about 24. She just returned from Turkey where she is studying the culture/dance in depth. Fabulous dancer and I hope you two manage to connect. I am finally getting around to studying Turkish Rom and belly dance with her and she is wonderful!
REgards,
A'isha
Shanazel
Moderator
In politics??? My dear, that statement makes me wonder: are you saluting me with all your fingers or just one?
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
A'isha -
Since the original thread where you and I were having the same debate that you and Tarik are now having has been demolished in the name of "on topic", and I haven't a clue where it is now....
I'll stay out of this one as much as I can as I feel Tarik has probably forgotten more about this dance than I'll ever know. Besides, he's saying essentially the same thing only far better than I could. More importantly, so does Aunt Rocky. The only thing Morocco has ever said on the subject of male dancers that I didn't like (that I know about anyways) is that we shouldn't do veilwork - I respectfully disagree. Otherwise, as she says, "The movement vocabulary is the movement vocabulary".
But - I wanted to reply to your comment about my keeping our debate non-personal and non combative, etc. You're most welcome, and I note the same thing in you! We all learn when we can have true discourse. While I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on certain things - you've won my respect and admiration all the same! You're one of the good ones.
I, to a certain extent, blame myself for not being articulate enough to explain exactly what I mean at times.
{BOW HERE}
Since the original thread where you and I were having the same debate that you and Tarik are now having has been demolished in the name of "on topic", and I haven't a clue where it is now....
I'll stay out of this one as much as I can as I feel Tarik has probably forgotten more about this dance than I'll ever know. Besides, he's saying essentially the same thing only far better than I could. More importantly, so does Aunt Rocky. The only thing Morocco has ever said on the subject of male dancers that I didn't like (that I know about anyways) is that we shouldn't do veilwork - I respectfully disagree. Otherwise, as she says, "The movement vocabulary is the movement vocabulary".
But - I wanted to reply to your comment about my keeping our debate non-personal and non combative, etc. You're most welcome, and I note the same thing in you! We all learn when we can have true discourse. While I think you and I will have to agree to disagree on certain things - you've won my respect and admiration all the same! You're one of the good ones.
I, to a certain extent, blame myself for not being articulate enough to explain exactly what I mean at times.
{BOW HERE}
Last edited:
taheya
New member
I have to agree with rico and sharif on this one. I think traditionally we are used to seeing female belly dancers. Therefore we associate belly dance with women. I dont personally feel that the dance is gender linked, it is due to the prevalence of female dancers that we assume it is "feminine".
Aisha Azar
New member
Feminine essence, etc.
Dear Zorba,
Thank you, and I return the compliment to you!
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Zorba,
Thank you, and I return the compliment to you!
Regards,
A'isha
Tarik Sultan
New member
(I'm really getting confused and having a hard time following this thread because it keeps getting disected and scattered to the far winds. Can we just agree to keep it under this heading please?).
Okay, what’s next? :
Tackling this issue is harder than untangling an afro that hasn’t been combed in a month! Oh well, I guess that’s why God invented picks and Afro Sheen!
If I had to choose two words, to describe Egyptian society they would be ambivalence and conformity. Its not just in regards to dance, ITS EVERYTHING, racial identity, class, sexuality, religion, politics, you name it. However, I’ll focus on the issue at hand, which is, “ Is dancing considered shameful for men in the Middle East”? The answer is yes and no. So when some people say yes it is considered shameful, they are right, when others say no it isn’t they are also right. It all depends on the context that its happening in. By there is also an element of “shame” in regards to female dancing as well, which is also predicated on the context with in which this activity takes place. First, lets look at issue of “shame” in the context of social dance.
Generally speaking, there is no sense of shame connected to dancing socially, even when the movement vocabulary being used is identical to that which we are accustomed to seeing women do. In the social context, men actually have far more freedom and acceptance than women do. Its been my personal experience both in the Arab communities here as well as in various Middle Eastern countries, Egypt in particular, that people really enjoy seeing a guy who dances well. Case in point: This summer I was in Egypt and I went out to a club with a group of friends. One of my friends is a dancer I know from New York who is now living there. She’s a real live wire with a bit of a wild streak. She was up and dancing as soon as we got there, so eventually she pulled me up to dance with her, (something she would NOT have been doing if she was a native Egyptian woman who cared about maintaining a good reputation). The clientele was predominantly male, but even so, they really enjoyed watching me dance and even got up to join me. They were all either Egyptian or from the Gulf. Even some of the musicians and waiters started to dance with me. This is the typical response I experienced whenever I or another guy would get up to dance.
In social situations, men are enthusiastically encouraged to dance, especially if they are known to be good dancers. This point was illustrated later in the evening when a middle-aged guy sitting at the next table got up to dance spontaneously. It wasn’t just the fact that he executed all the movements, figure 8’s, ¾ shimmies, hip drops and circles with well oiled precision, but the unrestrained and exuberant spirit that animated his dance. He had more umph than most people I know half his age. I spoke to him afterwards because I wanted to get him on film, (never happened!). His name was Abu Ziad, 45 years old, the father of three and a cab driver for one of the five star hotels. He said that his dancing was a gift from God. When he was a boy he never danced, but watched at weddings and parties. One day when he was 14 he just got up at a wedding and started dancing and blew everyone away! Ever since then he had a reputation for being an exceptionally gifted dancer and whenever he went to a wedding or party, he could never sit down because all the people wanted to see him dance.
By the way, here's a clip of some footage I took on one of the party felucas on the Nile this summer. This guy was a far better dancer than I was able to show here, too many people walking in front of the camera:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvCmUyU6Gc8
Exceptions to this rule: When a person reaches a certain social level, they are expected to maintain an air of respectability and dignity in public. You will not see Hosney Mubarak or any of his officials shaking their tail feathers in public any time soon, (that goes double for Mrs. Mubarak), and if they do get up to dance, they will be very restrained. I often wondered why it was that when I see Arabic singers on television they seem so stiff. I especially noticed this with Hakim, because I’ve seen him just about every time he’s come to New York and he’s quite a live wire. When I saw him performing for a New Years celebration on T.V. he was uncharacteristically subdued. When I asked my friends about this they told me that it was because he was on T.V., so he had to be dignified. In the next post I’ll talk about how the issue of professional dancing is perceived.
Okay, what’s next? :
Tackling this issue is harder than untangling an afro that hasn’t been combed in a month! Oh well, I guess that’s why God invented picks and Afro Sheen!
If I had to choose two words, to describe Egyptian society they would be ambivalence and conformity. Its not just in regards to dance, ITS EVERYTHING, racial identity, class, sexuality, religion, politics, you name it. However, I’ll focus on the issue at hand, which is, “ Is dancing considered shameful for men in the Middle East”? The answer is yes and no. So when some people say yes it is considered shameful, they are right, when others say no it isn’t they are also right. It all depends on the context that its happening in. By there is also an element of “shame” in regards to female dancing as well, which is also predicated on the context with in which this activity takes place. First, lets look at issue of “shame” in the context of social dance.
Generally speaking, there is no sense of shame connected to dancing socially, even when the movement vocabulary being used is identical to that which we are accustomed to seeing women do. In the social context, men actually have far more freedom and acceptance than women do. Its been my personal experience both in the Arab communities here as well as in various Middle Eastern countries, Egypt in particular, that people really enjoy seeing a guy who dances well. Case in point: This summer I was in Egypt and I went out to a club with a group of friends. One of my friends is a dancer I know from New York who is now living there. She’s a real live wire with a bit of a wild streak. She was up and dancing as soon as we got there, so eventually she pulled me up to dance with her, (something she would NOT have been doing if she was a native Egyptian woman who cared about maintaining a good reputation). The clientele was predominantly male, but even so, they really enjoyed watching me dance and even got up to join me. They were all either Egyptian or from the Gulf. Even some of the musicians and waiters started to dance with me. This is the typical response I experienced whenever I or another guy would get up to dance.
In social situations, men are enthusiastically encouraged to dance, especially if they are known to be good dancers. This point was illustrated later in the evening when a middle-aged guy sitting at the next table got up to dance spontaneously. It wasn’t just the fact that he executed all the movements, figure 8’s, ¾ shimmies, hip drops and circles with well oiled precision, but the unrestrained and exuberant spirit that animated his dance. He had more umph than most people I know half his age. I spoke to him afterwards because I wanted to get him on film, (never happened!). His name was Abu Ziad, 45 years old, the father of three and a cab driver for one of the five star hotels. He said that his dancing was a gift from God. When he was a boy he never danced, but watched at weddings and parties. One day when he was 14 he just got up at a wedding and started dancing and blew everyone away! Ever since then he had a reputation for being an exceptionally gifted dancer and whenever he went to a wedding or party, he could never sit down because all the people wanted to see him dance.
By the way, here's a clip of some footage I took on one of the party felucas on the Nile this summer. This guy was a far better dancer than I was able to show here, too many people walking in front of the camera:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvCmUyU6Gc8
Exceptions to this rule: When a person reaches a certain social level, they are expected to maintain an air of respectability and dignity in public. You will not see Hosney Mubarak or any of his officials shaking their tail feathers in public any time soon, (that goes double for Mrs. Mubarak), and if they do get up to dance, they will be very restrained. I often wondered why it was that when I see Arabic singers on television they seem so stiff. I especially noticed this with Hakim, because I’ve seen him just about every time he’s come to New York and he’s quite a live wire. When I saw him performing for a New Years celebration on T.V. he was uncharacteristically subdued. When I asked my friends about this they told me that it was because he was on T.V., so he had to be dignified. In the next post I’ll talk about how the issue of professional dancing is perceived.
Tarik Sultan
New member
<Snip>
Tarik... on the "duck" thing we must disagree. I give the people of the Middle East credit for understanding what they are doing, and if they recognize differences between belly dance and other types of dance, then I feel that they know what they are talking about. Again, it comes not down to movement but to that now infamous word, "essence". And I can see these differences, too. It is not a matter of if one is moving the hips or whatever, it is more than that. It is nothing to do with movement and everything to do with how that movement is approached on psychological and cultural levels, I guess would be a way to try to say it. If THEY do not think they are belly dancing becasue they recognize the difference in the essence and feeling of the dances, then who am I to argue about it?
<Snip>
....Well...of course there are going to be differences in the essence when you compair the way a man does the movement as compared to how a woman does it. I maintain that one of the major differences between Oriental Dance and western dances is the emotional qulaity. the technique is there to allow you to express your feelings and personality, rather than showing how athletic you can be. The way a man relates to the world and himself emotionally does differ because we don't experience the world in the same way. I still think its a matter of splitting hairs and that the main concern is that they don't want to be misunderstood as trying to immitate women.
Tarik... on the "duck" thing we must disagree. I give the people of the Middle East credit for understanding what they are doing, and if they recognize differences between belly dance and other types of dance, then I feel that they know what they are talking about. Again, it comes not down to movement but to that now infamous word, "essence". And I can see these differences, too. It is not a matter of if one is moving the hips or whatever, it is more than that. It is nothing to do with movement and everything to do with how that movement is approached on psychological and cultural levels, I guess would be a way to try to say it. If THEY do not think they are belly dancing becasue they recognize the difference in the essence and feeling of the dances, then who am I to argue about it?
<Snip>
....Well...of course there are going to be differences in the essence when you compair the way a man does the movement as compared to how a woman does it. I maintain that one of the major differences between Oriental Dance and western dances is the emotional qulaity. the technique is there to allow you to express your feelings and personality, rather than showing how athletic you can be. The way a man relates to the world and himself emotionally does differ because we don't experience the world in the same way. I still think its a matter of splitting hairs and that the main concern is that they don't want to be misunderstood as trying to immitate women.
Tarik Sultan
New member
Hey A'isha:
I haven't met her yet, but then again I don't get around much because I'm too busy working, so unless she comes to one of my classes or stops by somewhere I'm performing I wouldn't know her. I'd love to meet her though.
Aisha Azar
New member
Males, etc.
Dear Tarik,
I had a little bit of an epiphany this A.M.
In looking back over the many posts on this subject, I notice that most people seem to equate dance with movement more than any other element of the dance, whereas I equate the dance with its essence more than any other aspect. I understand responders to be sayaing "The movements are male and female", or "In social dancing men are belly dancing because they are doing the same movements as the women". My understanding of the situation is that if Arab guys say they are not belly dancing, I can agree because I see that the essence and feeling of what they are doing is very different from belly dance as in what we see on the stage, via such performers as Sohair Zaki, Fif, Lucy, Randa, etc. The men that I know personally do not feel that they are doing the same dance as these women, but instead see social dancing, as you have said, as something different than what is being done on stage. To me, even the movements of social dancing are more beledi and shaabi in their lack of complexity in MOST cases, (though I know an Egyptian man who can rival any dancer that I have seen in this area as well!).
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Tarik,
I had a little bit of an epiphany this A.M.
In looking back over the many posts on this subject, I notice that most people seem to equate dance with movement more than any other element of the dance, whereas I equate the dance with its essence more than any other aspect. I understand responders to be sayaing "The movements are male and female", or "In social dancing men are belly dancing because they are doing the same movements as the women". My understanding of the situation is that if Arab guys say they are not belly dancing, I can agree because I see that the essence and feeling of what they are doing is very different from belly dance as in what we see on the stage, via such performers as Sohair Zaki, Fif, Lucy, Randa, etc. The men that I know personally do not feel that they are doing the same dance as these women, but instead see social dancing, as you have said, as something different than what is being done on stage. To me, even the movements of social dancing are more beledi and shaabi in their lack of complexity in MOST cases, (though I know an Egyptian man who can rival any dancer that I have seen in this area as well!).
Regards,
A'isha
Sharif
New member
Great posts, Tarik!
Hi Tarik,
thank you so much for your thoughtful and interesting replies in this forum! You are enlightening us all, and giving useful information. I really get a sense of the ME atmosphere when I read your descriptions of how things work and are viewed over there. Being an expatriate myself I know how hard it is to convey how a different culture works and how it makes sense. Please keep them coming!
Hi Tarik,
thank you so much for your thoughtful and interesting replies in this forum! You are enlightening us all, and giving useful information. I really get a sense of the ME atmosphere when I read your descriptions of how things work and are viewed over there. Being an expatriate myself I know how hard it is to convey how a different culture works and how it makes sense. Please keep them coming!
Last edited:
Tarik Sultan
New member
I STILL HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT HOW TO DISECT THE SECTIONS OF THE QUOTE I WANT TO RESPOND TO, SO PLEASE READ THE WHOLE THING
Exactly. The stage version in the nightclubs is much more refined, complex and dramatic than the social version. I just think its such a shame that people like that have no venues to share their talents with the world. Can you imagine a world without a Barishnakov, Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly? There are so many talented people over there that we will never meet. So much light wasted. By the way, here's a clip of the infamous Tito doing his thing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6autbeh_tUk
I think he deserves a whole lot of credit for having the courage to take the step that he has in Egypt.
Dear Tarik,
I had a little bit of an epiphany this A.M.
In looking back over the many posts on this subject, I notice that most people seem to equate dance with movement more than any other element of the dance, whereas I equate the dance with its essence more than any other aspect. I understand responders to be sayaing "The movements are male and female", or "In social dancing men are belly dancing because they are doing the same movements as the women".
*I would agree, however, I personally think that the dance is a combination of a very definate movement vocabulary, as well as the emotional quality that animates it.
I also think it is important to note that once upon a not so very long time ago, the dance community for the most part was unaware of the fact that men also did these movements. They went so far as to say that it was unheard of for Middle Eastern men to move this way. At that time the focus WAS on the movements, not the essence being expressed through them. It was a great revelation and for many people, because they are unaware of the culture from whicdh the dance comes, it still is. By the way, did you like the video clip?
My understanding of the situation is that if Arab guys say they are not belly dancing, I can agree because I see that the essence and feeling of what they are doing is very different from belly dance as in what we see on the stage, via such performers as Sohair Zaki, Fif, Lucy, Randa, etc.
*Yes, I can agree. The thing is that the male theatrical expression of this vocabulary is still in its infancy. With Sharki, there was a very concious idea as to what they wanted the dance to express and how they should do it. There hasn't been the same motivation for male dancers. For this reason and because there are so few male role models, each one of us has to kind of reinvent the wheel so to speak. From costuming to presentation, we have had to take our que from our sisters and then figure out how to not loose our maleness at the same time. Some of us are able to do this better than others.
The men that I know personally do not feel that they are doing the same dance as these women, but instead see social dancing, as you have said, as something different than what is being done on stage.
*Exactly. However, I do know many guys who consider what they do belly dance. Theyt don't make a distinction, between the social dance and the stage dance. I think this is because "belly dance", is an English word which does not convey the reality of their cultural context. If they were speaking to me in Arabic, they would probably say Raks Sharki for the stage version and baladi or Shabbi for the social version. Belly dance is a blanket term and there isn't even a general consensus among us as to what it qualifies, much less the general public. Having said that however, I still do believe that part of it is that some of them want to be clear that they are not trying to emulate women, its just the way they dance.
To me, even the movements of social dancing are more beledi and shaabi in their lack of complexity in MOST cases, (though I know an Egyptian man who can rival any dancer that I have seen in this area as well!).
Regards,
A'isha
Exactly. The stage version in the nightclubs is much more refined, complex and dramatic than the social version. I just think its such a shame that people like that have no venues to share their talents with the world. Can you imagine a world without a Barishnakov, Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly? There are so many talented people over there that we will never meet. So much light wasted. By the way, here's a clip of the infamous Tito doing his thing:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6autbeh_tUk
I think he deserves a whole lot of credit for having the courage to take the step that he has in Egypt.
Last edited:
Aisha Azar
New member
Femenine essence, etc.
Dear Tarik,
Sometimes I have trouble with the quote feature becasue I am just not very technical. I have been using the same sound system in the studio where I teach dance for over 10 years and I still can't get it together just right every time! I loved the video of the guy dancing shaabi. One thing I saw in this film and in the guys here is that they tend to hold their arms a lot higher than the women do, much of the time and that there is a sort of expansion ( Or something) in the chest while the hips stay tiny and internalized. It's a very different feel from what women do.
I agree that as a stage presentation that Raqs Sharghi as performed by men is "in its infancy", though don't you think that men have actually been dancing belly dance as entertainers all along, just not so very publicly? I have never had anyone from the Arab countries deny that men dance belly dance, only that it is "shameful" for them to do so, leading me to believe that men have definately been out there as paid entertainers since the beginnings of the dance! They have just not been as public about it as women.
I also have thought about the term belly dance as perhaps what people say when they do not think an English speaking person might not get the total cultural meaning in beledi, sharghi or shaabi. They know that "belly dance" is terminology with which we are familiar. I have given this thought about other things as well. I was interviewing an Egytian woman one time about her life and she was talking about how it was important to marry someone from the same village as you in rural areas in Egypt. A Saudi friend was interpreting when I did not know terms or when our Egyptian friend could not quite think of the English word. Our Saudi freind interpreted the word "village" as "tribe" because that would be the meaning in Saudi Arabic, though I understood that in Egyptian dialect it did not have the exact same meaning as tribe.
I think Tito is wonderful and brave, too!!
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Tarik,
Sometimes I have trouble with the quote feature becasue I am just not very technical. I have been using the same sound system in the studio where I teach dance for over 10 years and I still can't get it together just right every time! I loved the video of the guy dancing shaabi. One thing I saw in this film and in the guys here is that they tend to hold their arms a lot higher than the women do, much of the time and that there is a sort of expansion ( Or something) in the chest while the hips stay tiny and internalized. It's a very different feel from what women do.
I agree that as a stage presentation that Raqs Sharghi as performed by men is "in its infancy", though don't you think that men have actually been dancing belly dance as entertainers all along, just not so very publicly? I have never had anyone from the Arab countries deny that men dance belly dance, only that it is "shameful" for them to do so, leading me to believe that men have definately been out there as paid entertainers since the beginnings of the dance! They have just not been as public about it as women.
I also have thought about the term belly dance as perhaps what people say when they do not think an English speaking person might not get the total cultural meaning in beledi, sharghi or shaabi. They know that "belly dance" is terminology with which we are familiar. I have given this thought about other things as well. I was interviewing an Egytian woman one time about her life and she was talking about how it was important to marry someone from the same village as you in rural areas in Egypt. A Saudi friend was interpreting when I did not know terms or when our Egyptian friend could not quite think of the English word. Our Saudi freind interpreted the word "village" as "tribe" because that would be the meaning in Saudi Arabic, though I understood that in Egyptian dialect it did not have the exact same meaning as tribe.
I think Tito is wonderful and brave, too!!
Regards,
A'isha
Last edited:
Tarik Sultan
New member
Thanks Sharif: I'm glad you're enjoying the information I'm sharing. Sometimes I wonder if people appreciate what I have to say because they rearly make comments when I post something. I really do like to get feed back regardless if people agree or disagree.
That's a very interesting observation. I think that's part of the difference that a lot of us were alluding to in that the movements are the same, but they look different because we are built differently. zorba made a comment to this effect a while back. I think the fact that men hold our strength in our upper bodies, but are smaller in the pelvic girdle has something to do with that. The hip movements often look smaller and tighter.
In regards to the arms, I think part of that might also be psychological. Men are encouraged to be more outgoing, while women on the other hand are encouraged to be more reserved, especially in public.
If you mean the current version of the dance developed in the early 20th Century, actually, yes I do, but not as entertainers. They have been behind the scene all along as choreographers, Ibrahim Akef is a perfect example, (he actually did dance in one movie a long time ago, except it was set in a prison and he was dressed as a clown go figure). I know a lot of teachers and choreographers in Egypt, but none of them will ever perform on stage in public. There have definately not been any in the nightclubs.
I asked Nadia Hamdy if there ever were any on the Mohamed Ali circuit. The only one she knew of was a guy who was married to a very famous costumer, but he danced in drag.
In the Baladi style, yes there have been and still are, but these entertainers are not in places where they would get widespread media attention. Mahsoub in Luxor is one such example, however, he is more of an all around entertainer rather than just a dancer. He had a cousin named Abdul Karim who was a dancedr as well when he was younger, but he died a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34hchkLCAVs
I think this comes down to the semantic issue we mentioned about using the English term belly dance. I think what they meant was that yes men do dance, (socially), but that it would be considered shameful for them to do so professionally. I spoke to Rakia Hassan at length about this issue and that was her take on it. This thought was also echoed by all the male dancers and choreograophers I spoke to. I'll go into more detail in another post.
An interesting anecdote: My last night in Cairo, I ended up in a boat disco with a group of friends. During the course of the night there was a performance buy a male theatre style folk troup, (think Reda, but very badly coordinated). They did several numbers with quick changes. First was a disco/hip-hop number, then a felahin number, followed by the worse fake ass Nubian dance I ever saw and then a Saidi stick dance. At the end of the last number they grabbed people out of the audience to dance with them. They all look off their turbans tied them around their hips and started dancing. Unfortunately, the management would not let me film it. Too many hookers running around, I guess they were afraid I might be undercover vice squad.
BY GEORGE I THINK I GOT IT! THANKS SHANAZEL!
That's a very interesting observation. I think that's part of the difference that a lot of us were alluding to in that the movements are the same, but they look different because we are built differently. zorba made a comment to this effect a while back. I think the fact that men hold our strength in our upper bodies, but are smaller in the pelvic girdle has something to do with that. The hip movements often look smaller and tighter.
In regards to the arms, I think part of that might also be psychological. Men are encouraged to be more outgoing, while women on the other hand are encouraged to be more reserved, especially in public.
If you mean the current version of the dance developed in the early 20th Century, actually, yes I do, but not as entertainers. They have been behind the scene all along as choreographers, Ibrahim Akef is a perfect example, (he actually did dance in one movie a long time ago, except it was set in a prison and he was dressed as a clown
go figure). I know a lot of teachers and choreographers in Egypt, but none of them will ever perform on stage in public. There have definately not been any in the nightclubs. I asked Nadia Hamdy if there ever were any on the Mohamed Ali circuit. The only one she knew of was a guy who was married to a very famous costumer, but he danced in drag.
In the Baladi style, yes there have been and still are, but these entertainers are not in places where they would get widespread media attention. Mahsoub in Luxor is one such example, however, he is more of an all around entertainer rather than just a dancer. He had a cousin named Abdul Karim who was a dancedr as well when he was younger, but he died a few years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34hchkLCAVs
I think this comes down to the semantic issue we mentioned about using the English term belly dance. I think what they meant was that yes men do dance, (socially), but that it would be considered shameful for them to do so professionally. I spoke to Rakia Hassan at length about this issue and that was her take on it. This thought was also echoed by all the male dancers and choreograophers I spoke to. I'll go into more detail in another post.
An interesting anecdote: My last night in Cairo, I ended up in a boat disco with a group of friends. During the course of the night there was a performance buy a male theatre style folk troup, (think Reda, but very badly coordinated). They did several numbers with quick changes. First was a disco/hip-hop number, then a felahin number, followed by the worse fake ass Nubian dance I ever saw and then a Saidi stick dance. At the end of the last number they grabbed people out of the audience to dance with them. They all look off their turbans tied them around their hips and started dancing. Unfortunately, the management would not let me film it. Too many hookers running around, I guess they were afraid I might be undercover vice squad.
BY GEORGE I THINK I GOT IT! THANKS SHANAZEL!
Last edited:
Aisha Azar
New member
Males, etc.
Dear Tarik,
I think we are saying the same thing about men in different words. I don;t think that male entertainers took to the very public stage or so much moveis, etc, but in very private parties where they did and still do work as dancers, not just as social dancers, but as their job as entertainers. The social morality of the times might prevent anything more for them by way of dancing publicly...especially if they are working also as prostitutes.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Tarik,
I think we are saying the same thing about men in different words. I don;t think that male entertainers took to the very public stage or so much moveis, etc, but in very private parties where they did and still do work as dancers, not just as social dancers, but as their job as entertainers. The social morality of the times might prevent anything more for them by way of dancing publicly...especially if they are working also as prostitutes.
Regards,
A'isha
Tarik Sultan
New member
.....Well...I suppose there are people who do that sort of thing. I was thinking more along the lines of legitimate performance opportunities and venuesThe guy I showed the clip of is a legitimate performer who performes for the community.Now I don't doubt that there are people who hire guys for, "private parties", where they also do othere things, but that's a whole other ball of wax. There is a lot of hustling going on over there, mostly for male foriegners and totally unrealted to any dance type activity. Mostly young guys from poor backgrounds looking for a means of bettering their situations.
As I stated in a previous post, when I was in Egypt this summer, I spent a lot of time on the party felucas on the Nile, (that was where I got the footage of the guy dancing). I did notice that the captins of the boats had hired young street girls and gay teenagers to dance on the boats while they were docked to attract customers. Sometimes they also danced on the boat as it was sailing. More often though, as soon as the boat was filled up, they jumped off to go fill up another empty one. These kids though, weren't wearing any sort of costume. I don't doubt that they do get propositioned, but the captins definately did not allow people to talk to them while they were working.
Recnadocir
New member
Dear Tarik,
Your complaint about the posts being moved, and difficult to keep track of, has been noted. Perhaps when you have been around a bit longer you will want to take a crack at it yourself? Please note that it is pro bono work.
Dear Aisha,
This word "essence" has been used countless times here, but I'm not even sure we all have the same definition of "essence." It seems a rather difficult word to define, to me, and I'd rather abstain for now, but perhaps you would care to take a stab at it?
Your complaint about the posts being moved, and difficult to keep track of, has been noted. Perhaps when you have been around a bit longer you will want to take a crack at it yourself? Please note that it is pro bono work.
Dear Aisha,
This word "essence" has been used countless times here, but I'm not even sure we all have the same definition of "essence." It seems a rather difficult word to define, to me, and I'd rather abstain for now, but perhaps you would care to take a stab at it?
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia
Moderator
I feel like a kid sitting on the stairs when the grown-ups are a having a fight(discussion) . I'm learning so much so don't stop or you'll make me go to bed Yasmine
. I'm learning so much so don't stop or you'll make me go to bed Yasmine
Recnadocir
New member
I'll bring you a Starbucks, Yasmine. You can stay and fuss and feud with the grown-ups!I feel like a kid sitting on the stairs when the grown-ups are a having a fight(discussion)