Greek Chifteteli
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Hi Maria! I have a question about Greek Chifteteli.
I recently downloaded two songs from emusic that said they were chifteteli that were from compilations of Greek dance music. Neither seemed to have the rythm I learned from American teachers as chiftiteli. That didn't entirely surprise me, since I know we have a tendacy to name a specific rhythm after a broader style of music (like we do with Beledi for example). The two songs I heard just seemed do different than I would have expected--they were fast songs, the main sound seemed to be a string instrument, etc. I really liked one of these songs and can imagine that someone might enjoy dancing to it! Does the rhythm we refer to as "chiftiteli" have any connection to Greek chiftiteli music? Does the music I described sound like chiftiteli music (I know sometimes things are mislabled)?
--Sam
I recently downloaded two songs from emusic that said they were chifteteli that were from compilations of Greek dance music. Neither seemed to have the rythm I learned from American teachers as chiftiteli. That didn't entirely surprise me, since I know we have a tendacy to name a specific rhythm after a broader style of music (like we do with Beledi for example). The two songs I heard just seemed do different than I would have expected--they were fast songs, the main sound seemed to be a string instrument, etc. I really liked one of these songs and can imagine that someone might enjoy dancing to it! Does the rhythm we refer to as "chiftiteli" have any connection to Greek chiftiteli music? Does the music I described sound like chiftiteli music (I know sometimes things are mislabled)?
--Sam
Maria_Aya
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Dear Sam
About the songs, can you recognize any lyrics? or have the names of them? this way i could tell more, chifeteli can be very slow or very fast depends.
Now about the rythm etc question, the best is to read our own Chryssanthi Sahar article about greek chifteteli (she is greek also).
http://www.orientaldancer.net/articles/tsifteteli.shtml
Just ask anything, we love so much greek chifteteli and it pains us that is not represented abroad in the right way (beside Chryssanthi at Germany) that we have to do something
Maria Aya
About the songs, can you recognize any lyrics? or have the names of them? this way i could tell more, chifeteli can be very slow or very fast depends.
Now about the rythm etc question, the best is to read our own Chryssanthi Sahar article about greek chifteteli (she is greek also).
http://www.orientaldancer.net/articles/tsifteteli.shtml
Just ask anything, we love so much greek chifteteli and it pains us that is not represented abroad in the right way (beside Chryssanthi at Germany) that we have to do something
Maria Aya
Hi Maria! Neither of these songs have lyrics.
These are how the songs were labled on emusic where I downloaded them:
Tsifteteli by Elenis and Athanasiou on Greek Folk Dances
http://www.emusic.com/album/10894/10894733.html
Rast Tsiftetelli by Various Artists - FM Records compilation called Gypsy Music Of Constantinople
http://www.emusic.com/album/10886/10886514.html
I associate this rhythym with chiftitelli/Tsiftetelli since I was taught the rhythm is called Chiftitelli:
http://www.emusic.com/album/10886/10886017.html
(I think you can click on listen without joining to hear a few seconds of it)
Is the above rhythm used in Tsiftetelli music? I didn't hear it in those two songs, but maybe I just didn't notice it since I am use to it being slow and percussive. (Still working on my musical ear). I am guessing that the style of music uses a variety of rhythyms like most styles of music.
By the way Maria, I read the article you suggested several months ago and found it really interesting. That article and some of your postss is why I downloaded those songs since I was curious what Greek Tsiftetelli music sounds like. Thanks Chryssanthi for writing that article!
These are how the songs were labled on emusic where I downloaded them:
Tsifteteli by Elenis and Athanasiou on Greek Folk Dances
http://www.emusic.com/album/10894/10894733.html
Rast Tsiftetelli by Various Artists - FM Records compilation called Gypsy Music Of Constantinople
http://www.emusic.com/album/10886/10886514.html
I associate this rhythym with chiftitelli/Tsiftetelli since I was taught the rhythm is called Chiftitelli:
http://www.emusic.com/album/10886/10886017.html
(I think you can click on listen without joining to hear a few seconds of it)
Is the above rhythm used in Tsiftetelli music? I didn't hear it in those two songs, but maybe I just didn't notice it since I am use to it being slow and percussive. (Still working on my musical ear). I am guessing that the style of music uses a variety of rhythyms like most styles of music.
By the way Maria, I read the article you suggested several months ago and found it really interesting. That article and some of your postss is why I downloaded those songs since I was curious what Greek Tsiftetelli music sounds like. Thanks Chryssanthi for writing that article!
Hi Maria, the third is by a band/American Tribal Bellydance troupe called Gypsy Caravan based in Portland, Oregon. They don't claim to be gypsies, the cd it is from is a collection of the different rhythms taught/used in American bellydance. The reason I included this, is that several American teachers I have had teach this as a rhythm called Chifteteli. I always assumed the rhythm is used in chiftiteli music. Hearing the two that you confirmed are Greek chifteteli, made me wonder if I was mistaken. I had been taught that Greek chiftitelli is fast and read that the name refers to a stringed instrument.
I like the Greek songs as well--especially the second one.
chryssanthi sahar
New member
Dear Samsied.
Let's clear the misunderstandings: There are two things called "Chifteteli": One is the Turkish and Greek belly dance (whereas second is actually called "Tsifteteli", because we don't have the sound "ch" in Greek, except in some dialects), the other is the 8/4 Arabian rhythm Taksim, which some times is called also Chifteteli. Probably because it is used a lot for the Turkish Chifteteli, but in lot quicker version than for the Arabian Taksim parts of a musical routine.
The Turkish Chifteteli usually has the 8/4 rhythm Chifteteli and/or 4/4 rhythms, mostly Maqsoum. The Greek Chifteteli has in most cases 4/4 rhythms also mostly Maqsoum and in rare cases the 8/4 Chifteteli rhythm (which in this case is played slow, like in the Arabian music). The word Chifteteli is Turkish and means "two strings". We Greeks have the Turkish name, because, as you read in my article , Chifteteli was brought to modern Greece through the expatriate Greeks of Smyrna.
As about the songs you are talking about: the first is indeed a Greek Tsifteteli with a very quick 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm. The second is a Turkish Chifteteli with also a 4/4 rhythm (Maria sorry, this song is definitely Turkish and not Greek ) and the third song is obviously a fusion with an Arabian 8/4 Chifteteli or Taksim rhythm. I hope you are less confused about the subject now
Happy dancing
Let's clear the misunderstandings: There are two things called "Chifteteli": One is the Turkish and Greek belly dance (whereas second is actually called "Tsifteteli", because we don't have the sound "ch" in Greek, except in some dialects), the other is the 8/4 Arabian rhythm Taksim, which some times is called also Chifteteli. Probably because it is used a lot for the Turkish Chifteteli, but in lot quicker version than for the Arabian Taksim parts of a musical routine.
The Turkish Chifteteli usually has the 8/4 rhythm Chifteteli and/or 4/4 rhythms, mostly Maqsoum. The Greek Chifteteli has in most cases 4/4 rhythms also mostly Maqsoum and in rare cases the 8/4 Chifteteli rhythm (which in this case is played slow, like in the Arabian music). The word Chifteteli is Turkish and means "two strings". We Greeks have the Turkish name, because, as you read in my article , Chifteteli was brought to modern Greece through the expatriate Greeks of Smyrna.
As about the songs you are talking about: the first is indeed a Greek Tsifteteli with a very quick 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm. The second is a Turkish Chifteteli with also a 4/4 rhythm (Maria sorry, this song is definitely Turkish and not Greek
) and the third song is obviously a fusion with an Arabian 8/4 Chifteteli or Taksim rhythm. I hope you are less confused about the subject now Happy dancing
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chryssanthi sahar
New member
Unfortunately there are no online video clips from people who dance Tsifteteli. At least I couldn't find any. Maybe Maria knows better, she is an Internet expert (filakia Maria mou)
But I performed a traditional Greek Tsifteteli at my recent "Oriental Flow" show and I have this on video. I'll try to put it on my web page and on youtube. But I don't know how long it will take until I make it, because I am very busy at the moment.
(filakia Maria mou)But I performed a traditional Greek Tsifteteli at my recent "Oriental Flow" show and I have this on video. I'll try to put it on my web page and on youtube. But I don't know how long it will take until I make it, because I am very busy at the moment.
chryssanthi sahar
New member
I made it to put my traditional Tsifteteli video on youtube at last Have a look.
Have a look.
sedoniaraqs
New member
Chryssanthi: I'm confused now. I understand that "chiftitelli" refers to a dance, and is also used for a particular rhythm, but I'm wondering if its the same rhythm that is called chiftitelli on music CDs and in the U.S. or (wada kabhir in arabic? -- the two-toned one played with many taqsim) -- this rhythm isn't 6/8. I've only seen it notated by Middle Eastern musicians as 8/4 -- it has a very strong 8 beat structure.
the dancer in this clip is using music with what we call the chiftitelli rhythm.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4UUM5zY3Bw
Sedonia
the dancer in this clip is using music with what we call the chiftitelli rhythm.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4UUM5zY3Bw
Sedonia
Dear Samsied.
Let's clear the misunderstandings: There are two things called "Chifteteli": One is the Turkish and Greek belly dance (whereas second is actually called "Tsifteteli", because we don't have the sound "ch" in Greek, except in some dialects), the other is the 6/8 Arabian rhythm Taksim, which some times is called also Chifteteli. Probably because it is used a lot for the Turkish Chifteteli, but in lot quicker version than for the Arabian Taksim parts of a musical routine.
The Turkish Chifteteli usually has the 6/8 rhythm Chifteteli and/or 4/4 rhythms, mostly Maqsoum. The Greek Chifteteli has in most cases 4/4 rhythms also mostly Maqsoum and in rare cases the 6/8 Chifteteli rhythm (which in this case is played slow, like in the Arabian music). The word Chifteteli is Turkish and means "two strings". We Greeks have the Turkish name, because, as you read in my article , Chifteteli was brought to modern Greece through the expatriate Greeks of Smyrna.
As about the songs you are talking about: the first is indeed a Greek Tsifteteli with a very quick 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm. The second is a Turkish Chifteteli with also a 4/4 rhythm (Maria sorry, this song is definitely Turkish and not Greek
Happy dancing
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia
Moderator
Hail the Greek Goddesses! I like Sedonia, have learned the Turkish rhythm chifteteli is an 8/4 beat. Here in the States it is usually played slowly. During the cabaret shows of the 60's and 70's, the chifteteli rhythm was part of the taqsim portion of the dancer's show. Now I've watched Chryssanthi's clip and I'm trying to understand the difference.
InChryssanthi's article tsifteteli is the Greek form of bellydance, but does the dance use different rhythms? Would you say that tsifeteli, is a performance style dance or a dance seen by the everyday folk? In the clip seonia poted, is the rhythm and dnace style most American dance students were most familiar with.
Yasmine
InChryssanthi's article tsifteteli is the Greek form of bellydance, but does the dance use different rhythms? Would you say that tsifeteli, is a performance style dance or a dance seen by the everyday folk? In the clip seonia poted, is the rhythm and dnace style most American dance students were most familiar with.
Yasmine
chryssanthi sahar
New member
Hi girls.
I have to apologize for the confusion I created as about the Arabian Chifteteli rhythmray: . Of course it is not 6/8 but 8/4. I probably had a black out, when I was writing that posting.
So, Arabian Chifteteli: slow 8/4 rhythm, mainly used bei Taksims (instrument solos, therefore also the name "Taksim").
Greek Tsifteteli: most usually 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm, in some cases Baladi (Masmoudi saghir) rhythm, in seldom cases 8/4 Chifteteli (which is used almost only as intro, at the beginning of a song) and in even more seldom cases Saidi (only at modern Tsifteteli songs, usually if the song is a "cover" from a modern Arabian song).
The song I'm dancing on the clip is one of the oldest Greek Tsifteteli songs, first Rembetiko generation so to say. That's why it is sung partially in Turkish (the refrain), because the Greeks who came from Smyrna (today Izmir) were either bilingual or they even spoke only Turkish. I'll tell more to the song on the youtube forum.
I have to apologize for the confusion I created as about the Arabian Chifteteli rhythm
ray: . Of course it is not 6/8 but 8/4. I probably had a black out, when I was writing that posting. So, Arabian Chifteteli: slow 8/4 rhythm, mainly used bei Taksims (instrument solos, therefore also the name "Taksim").
Greek Tsifteteli: most usually 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm, in some cases Baladi (Masmoudi saghir) rhythm, in seldom cases 8/4 Chifteteli (which is used almost only as intro, at the beginning of a song) and in even more seldom cases Saidi (only at modern Tsifteteli songs, usually if the song is a "cover" from a modern Arabian song).
The song I'm dancing on the clip is one of the oldest Greek Tsifteteli songs, first Rembetiko generation so to say. That's why it is sung partially in Turkish (the refrain), because the Greeks who came from Smyrna (today Izmir) were either bilingual or they even spoke only Turkish. I'll tell more to the song on the youtube forum.
sedoniaraqs
New member
Dear Maria Aya and Chryssanthi:
Thank you so much for all of this information on chiftitelli the dance and chiftitelli the music. I have another question: Are there any rules for Turkish and Greek music about which pieces should only be used for chiftitelli the folk dance, and which pieces have the same rhythm but can be used for oriental?
Sorry if this is a dumb questions -- I mostly know about Arabic music.
Sedonia
Thank you so much for all of this information on chiftitelli the dance and chiftitelli the music. I have another question: Are there any rules for Turkish and Greek music about which pieces should only be used for chiftitelli the folk dance, and which pieces have the same rhythm but can be used for oriental?
Sorry if this is a dumb questions -- I mostly know about Arabic music.
Sedonia
chryssanthi sahar
New member
I don't know about the Turkish music, but as about the Greek Tsifteteli music, theoretically there are no rules about what style of belly dance you should dance with it. It just has to harmonize with the music. Practically though, it is safer for a non-Greek to dance Oriental dance rather with new, modern Tsifteteli songs, which are very similar with the Arabian Pop Baladi songs. If you can dance with Pop Baladi (modern Arabian songs), you can also dance the same stuff with modern Tsifteteli. It is better not to dance Oriental with the old Tsifteteli songs, if you haven't dealt explicitly with them, because they are lot more "Greek" than the new Tsifteteli songs and maybe what you would dance with such a song would look strange to a Greek. For Greeks it is different, since they grow up with this music, they have the right feeling for it, so they are more free to dance something different than the traditional Tsifteteli folk dance also with the old songs. I dance sometimes my Greek-Arabian fusion (Tsifteteli Oriental, which I mainly dance with modern T-songs) also with old songs, as long as it suits the music.
Kiraze
New member
I think that what Crysshanti said about Greek tsifteteli music is valid also with Turkish ciftetelli. Usually ciftetelli is danced in Turkey with "oriental movements" as a solo dance whether it was between folk dances as a improvisation or just casual dancing at parties, discos etc.
chryssanthi sahar
New member
Since Greek Tsifteteli had been brought to Greece by the Greeks of Smyrna, this means from Turkey, it is almost the same like the traditional Turkish Chifteteli, especially when danced as a folklore/social dance. The Tsifteteli of today is changing, because of stronger Arabian and Western influences (Shakira for example. You'll see more young girls dancing like Shakira than dancing traditional Tsifteteli in the bouzoukia clubs today). But also in Turkey belly dance is changing. That's why I believe that it is no problem to dance Oriental dance with modern Greek and modern Turkish belly dance music, but it is a problem to do so with traditional belly dance music of both countries (I mean for foreigners).
chryssanthi sahar
New member
You are welcome Samsied
chryssanthi sahar
New member
Hi folks.
Yesterday I just found out something new about the Greek Tsifteteli, which I didn't know until now. We not only have 4/4 and more seldom 8/4 rhythms in Greek Tsifteteli music, but also 2/4 Ayub and Malfouf rhythms. Especially some older Tsifteteli songs have those rhythms. I found out accidentally, because my Arabian drummer (who is also one of my best friends) loves Greek music. So yesterday (we had again an Arabian night with live music) he was asking me after our performance to translate the words of some Greek songs he had on a tape, for him. He loves those songs, so he wanted to know the words (well, he also always translates the words from the Arabian songs that I love, for me). Some of those songs were older Tsifteteli songs. I was not sure about the rhythm they had though, so I was asking him, if he can recognize what rhythm it is. So he recognized one as Malfouf, another as Ayub. Most of the others were Maqsoum, which is also the most common. So I'm happy that I learned something new. It is very convenient to have Arabian musicians as friends
Yesterday I just found out something new about the Greek Tsifteteli, which I didn't know until now. We not only have 4/4 and more seldom 8/4 rhythms in Greek Tsifteteli music, but also 2/4 Ayub and Malfouf rhythms. Especially some older Tsifteteli songs have those rhythms. I found out accidentally, because my Arabian drummer (who is also one of my best friends) loves Greek music. So yesterday (we had again an Arabian night with live music) he was asking me after our performance to translate the words of some Greek songs he had on a tape, for him. He loves those songs, so he wanted to know the words (well, he also always translates the words from the Arabian songs that I love, for me). Some of those songs were older Tsifteteli songs. I was not sure about the rhythm they had though, so I was asking him, if he can recognize what rhythm it is. So he recognized one as Malfouf, another as Ayub. Most of the others were Maqsoum, which is also the most common. So I'm happy that I learned something new. It is very convenient to have Arabian musicians as friends
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