I want to commit a bellydance sin!

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lizaj

New member
The criticsms levelled at miss Meta were that she was obviously not ready to teach, that she was wrongly claiming there are no good teachers in the UK, that her dancing in public was innapropriate. I reckon those are valid comments. No one was being malicious but honest. We none of us want to see a dancer going off to teach after a very few lessons and with such poor technique so we are looking after the common good. Would I tell Ms Meta to her face, she was not ready to teach..Would I tell her she should not teach people in workshops...most certainly! Would I tell her to her face she should not be dancing in a restaurant..certainly NOT..that's up to the owners and the patrons to critique. Would I tell her not to dance in a student recital..certainly NOT.
But hey ho she refused to take advice, she went her own sweet way , refusing to read comments so she obviously was not that bothered.
 

Kharis

New member
I reckon those are valid comments. No one was being malicious but honest.
Saying she is terrible, damaging, cringeworthy, that her dancing is a 'spectacle'. Perhaps it may have been better to have simply said nothing, because often silence can speak volumes where words cannot.

I felt sorry for her, because at the end of the day, she has as much freedom to do as she wishes as any of us, bad dancing or no. We all had to start somewhere, and I would never have developed had I not done quite a lot of 'self learning'. We all make mistakes, and as has been pointed out, hindsight is a great thing. We must all remember we too, had to learn and make our own mistakes. Give her advice, tips, constructive criticism, but don't post her footage up here and then proceed to pull her apart, which is what has been done, what with all the emoticons of horror, outrage and anger at her technique and costuming.

We none of us want to see a dancer going off to teach after a very few lessons and with such poor technique so we are looking after the common good.
What common good? Who dictates the 'common good' laws? Who is judge, jury and executioner here? I'm sorry, but whilst I do agree wholeheartedly that a dancer needs a good grounding in technique and this girl does not have it reflected in her dancing on that footage, I also firmly believe that we have no right to dictate to others whether they teach or not. Where they dance, or how they dance or what they dance to. If I believed that, I would certainly have told certain of my students they were not 'ready'. But I do not believe in this restriction, and have the philosophy of live and let live and also that a teacher must embark on her/his own learning curve without being shot down in flames before they've even taken flight. My teacher tried to do that to me... I went off and did my own thing. The rest is history.

I've had students who've started teaching and flourished. In fact, all the students that came via my classes are still teaching...some of them were good dancers and some of them were not. It has already been acknowledged on here that you can be a lousy dancer but a good teacher. And vice versa. So where does anyone get off saying this girl has no right teaching? It's nobody's business if she's teaching, or chooses to wear transparent harem pants in the street.

As for someone's comment on her lack of dance 'qualifications', who her teacher is...don't get me started on that nonsense.

I know dancers/teachers who are sorely lacking in both departments with 'qualifications' to their name. I've had students come to me, taught by such people, who learned nothing in their time with the Great Qualified of Belly Dance.

But hey ho she refused to take advice, she went her own sweet way , refusing to read comments so she obviously was not that bothered.
I'm not bloody surprised she went her own sweet way, I would too. If she's not bothered to take on board sound advice, that's her prerogative. If she's that bad a teacher, she won't thrive and neither will her business. And that's her path too... not yours, not mine, not anybody elses.
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
Belly dance moves make up the greater part of the dance. They are quite distinctive and easily recognisable. Ergo, if one belly dances to any music, be it ME or otherwise... it's still recognisable as belly dance. One does not have to trumpet exactitudes to qualify this fact.
That is not an agreed point of view and has been discussed many times.

Nobody is challenging your right to your opinions. I'm merely being observational here. The thread that evaded me earlier was the Metamorphosis dance thread. Most of the earlier comments were constructive and helpful but then the You Tube footage went up and everybody let rip at her. Nasty.
I highlighted the word 'everybody' as this is totally inaccurate.

I don't have the inclination to go
scurrying off
to 'report' to moderators. It's their job to evaluate what is offensive or not..not mine.
Well that sort of contradicts what you are saying and doing in your posts. I think, or it appears that you choose to use this issue to shut people up on another thread.
This thread and your remarks were aimed at people who discussed fusion. I am terribly confused, this is why I suggest you deal with any issues you have directly, as there seems to be several of your posts which have remarks aimed at certain individuals, and it seems to have worked as it has become strangely quiet around here.


This is a board of free speech, and rightly so. But as I pointed out, there's a fine line between airing one's opinion and being snide or overbearing.
mmm...re-read some of your own posts.


Yes, I've been on these boards for many years, and I've done my fair share of mouthing off.
And you have changed your mind about this? you learned it was not a good thing to do? perhaps some of the people making these statements are in exactly the same place as you were when you did your mouthing off... maybe they too will change their mind in the future?


But one thing I don't do, is post up someone's dance performance so that everyone can disembowel it in the worst possible way.
There is more than one way to skin a rat or disembowel someone.
You forget that this person they speak of has an abundence of teaching videos, these things tend to be reviewed in great detail.. have you never dont this before? Estelle, Janine Rabbit, have you never made public comments? like you say, you know you have.

Like I said, perhaps you are in a more enlightend place these days but maybe others have similar emotions you had when you saw things you did not approve of?

This board has improved because certain negativity is no longer active on it.
True, so lets all be a little more tolerant and less judgemental and keep it that way.

I think the point has been made now, but lets not cast shadows over people for things we have done ourselves.
 
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lizaj

New member
Saying she is terrible, damaging, cringeworthy, that her dancing is a 'spectacle'. Perhaps it may have been better to have simply said nothing, because often silence can speak volumes where words cannot.

I felt sorry for her, because at the end of the day, she has as much freedom to do as she wishes as any of us, bad dancing or no. We all had to start somewhere, and I would never have developed had I not done quite a lot of 'self learning'. We all make mistakes, and as has been pointed out, hindsight is a great thing. We must all remember we too, had to learn and make our own mistakes. Give her advice, tips, constructive criticism, but don't post her footage up here and then proceed to pull her apart, which is what has been done, what with all the emoticons of horror, outrage and anger at her technique and costuming.



What common good? Who dictates the 'common good' laws? Who is judge, jury and executioner here? I'm sorry, but whilst I do agree wholeheartedly that a dancer needs a good grounding in technique and this girl does not have it reflected in her dancing on that footage, I also firmly believe that we have no right to dictate to others whether they teach or not. Where they dance, or how they dance or what they dance to. If I believed that, I would certainly have told certain of my students they were not 'ready'. But I do not believe in this restriction, and have the philosophy of live and let live and also that a teacher must embark on her/his own learning curve without being shot down in flames before they've even taken flight. My teacher tried to do that to me... I went off and did my own thing. The rest is history.

I've had students who've started teaching and flourished. In fact, all the students that came via my classes are still teaching...some of them were good dancers and some of them were not. It has already been acknowledged on here that you can be a lousy dancer but a good teacher. And vice versa. So where does anyone get off saying this girl has no right teaching? It's nobody's business if she's teaching, or chooses to wear transparent harem pants in the street.

As for someone's comment on her lack of dance 'qualifications', who her teacher is...don't get me started on that nonsense.

I know dancers/teachers who are sorely lacking in both departments with 'qualifications' to their name. I've had students come to me, taught by such people, who learned nothing in their time with the Great Qualified of Belly Dance.



I'm not bloody surprised she went her own sweet way, I would too. If she's not bothered to take on board sound advice, that's her prerogative. If she's that bad a teacher, she won't thrive and neither will her business. And that's her path too... not yours, not mine, not anybody elses.
I think we seem to forget she intitially asked for advice on her website and her plans.
She deleted her initial post.
She then posted on youtube that there were no good teachers anywhere near her part of the UK.
I think to prop up her right to operate as a teacher teaching poor technique is to degrade all those dancers and teachers who make an effort to learn instead of charging off and making slim excuses and innaccurate statements.
If we cannot criticise ill advised action from people within our community, what the h£ll, can we.:confused: Do we chuck any kind of standards out of the window and say hey folks free for all, make it up as we go along.

Mods..... I think these last few posts might be moved to debate or Miss Meta's post.
 

Kharis

New member
I think we seem to forget she intitially asked for advice on her website and her plans.
She deleted her initial post.
She then posted on youtube that there were no good teachers anywhere near her part of the UK.
I think to prop up her right to operate as a teacher teaching poor technique is to degrade all those dancers and teachers who make an effort to learn instead of charging off and making slim excuses and innaccurate statements.
If we cannot criticise ill advised action from people within our community, what the h£ll, can we.:confused: Do we chuck any kind of standards out of the window and say hey folks free for all, make it up as we go along.

Mods..... I think these last few posts might be moved to debate or Miss Meta's post.
What a student does on our classes and under our wings within that timeframe is different from dictating what they do outside of our classes and in their own free time. We do not have a right to tell them whether they can teach or not if they decide that is what they want to do.. If they ask should I, am I ready? fine, I feel justified in giving constructive advice, as we all do. I may tell them they need more tuition, or extra private lessons. But, I won't tell them..."No, you can't do it', I won't allow you to. You're not good enough.' Particularly not when they've already set themselves up.

Metamorphosis had already set up her classes and her website from what I can gather. She seemed prepared to take on board all that was said. Whether she acts on that is her business. If she's as bad as everyone thinks she is, then her classes will not flourish. You yourself have said many times that you teach only beginners. Well, that seems to be what she is doing at the moment...wanting to teach basics to beginners. We all have to start somewhere, and all of us have had to make our own way in the teaching business, making our own mistakes along the way. How can any of us possibly learn fully if we do not make those mistakes.

It's not about chucking out standards... it's about guidance and teaching and sharing... but also letting go if someone wants to fly the nest and do their own thing. Whilst there are passions running high about what we believe, I believe that I do not have the right to stop someone from setting up their own class. I may privately think otherwise, but I'm not an autocrat who can say yay or nay...nor would I presume to.

I, like most teachers, will insist upon doing everything in my power to give my students the best possible tuition and education. But that's all I can do. If they come to me and say, I want to teach, I'm setting up my own class, then I do not feel it is my place to try and stop them. There will always be bad teachers. There will always be those who are egotistical enough to think they know it all after a short bout of tuition. But this is a free country, and so I believe in guidance and encouragement rather than being a barrier or brick wall.

Is Metamorphosis a bad dancer? She's not much worse than a very well known and also respected teacher who has been teaching for years and years and who is not a great dancer, but by all accounts she's a very good teacher. So far as I know, she's never injured herself nor a student, despite the fact that her style and technique are sadly lacking. She ran highly successful classes for years.
But this seems to be a point that is being conveniently ignored...the possibility that a bad dancer can be a good teacher.

My personal feelings are that you need to be a good dancer to be a truly good teacher. But I can also accept that there will be poor dancers who do successfully teach. All should be given that chance and choice if they want to.
 

Kharis

New member
True, so lets all be a little more tolerant and less judgemental and keep it that way.

I think the point has been made now, but lets not cast shadows over people for things we have done ourselves.
You have obviously chosen to take my observations personally judging from some of your remarks?

You may want to split hairs here for the sake of feeding the debate, but I still feel that posting someone's dance footage up here and then pulling it apart is wrong...and could potentially make a lot of people who visit this site reticent about sharing....... and trying to justify the general tone of bitchiness under the veil of being concerned about her lack of teaching skills doesn't sweeten the bad taste it leaves in the mouth.

The smokescreen of personal finger-pointing fails in the distraction of your own unkind comments on this matter. You really do protest too much...
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
[
QUOTE=Kharis;139368]You have obviously chosen to take my observations personally judging from some of your remarks?

You may want to split hairs here for the sake of feeding the debate, but I still feel that posting someone's dance footage up here and then pulling it apart is wrong...and could potentially make a lot of people who visit this site reticent about sharing....... and trying to justify the general tone of bitchiness under the veil of being concerned about her lack of teaching skills doesn't sweeten the bad taste it leaves in the mouth.

The smokescreen of personal finger-pointing fails in the distraction of your own unkind comments on this matter. You really do protest too much...
since when did you become all sensitive and caring? :lol::lol::lol:

Phew...:rolleyes:

ps How would I describe that particular dance form I witnessed with my own peepers? Self indulgent crap.

This is just one of your quotes commenting on a clip from a few months ago on the Rachel Brice thread.

So it is ok for you but nobody else?

That was the point I was making really...no big deal.
 
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Kharis

New member
Feeding your need for the perpetuation of argument

Not prepared to play the My Dad is Bigger than Your Dad game. Bye to this thread.
 

LunaXJJ

New member
So, back on the original topic. Anyone else have any unorthodox songs they like to BD to? I don't know if I said this before, but I practiced to some techno before. That was some good fun.
 

paigan

New member
**edited for swearing**

OH MY GOD MOST OF YOU WOULD BE AT HOME AROUND A CAULDRON KEEP IT UP LADIES AND MAKE EVERY ONE NEW AND OLD TO THIS :mad::naghty:FORUM FEEL SO WELCOME WELL DONE:naghty::dance::clap::clap::clap:YOU ARE SO FULL OF IT:rolleyes:




Original text left as is, just the header is edited.
 
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lizaj

New member
I assume you are refering to heated discussions...well they tend to get like that when people care about what they do then different persepectives will clash. I am sure that most people who join internet forum are aware that this will happen wether it be crossstitchers or garden gnome fanatics...... and you know what they say about kitchens;):D

Put yourself and your opinions in the public domain and you tend to get a response. Sadly it may not be what you'd like to read.
 

Dhuma

New member
So, back on the original topic. Anyone else have any unorthodox songs they like to BD to? I don't know if I said this before, but I practiced to some techno before. That was some good fun.

Yep -- I've enjoyed tossing a bit of Celtic or Celtic Rock at our coffeehouse audience (just one dance surrounded by more traditional fare). There's plenty to work with in them, rhythm-wise. I'm going to bounce some Alanis Morisette lyrics off our instructor to see if they'd be welcome at the coffeehouse or if I need to bring it to the bar where the Urban ATS ladies dance, instead (no swearing, just . . . direct.)
 

Yshka

New member
Whew, I never thought I would, but I've been working on a piece with a modern dancer lately, and might be doing a small piece in which I will incorporate moves from the Oriental dances as well as classical and modern western dances.... to music by Wim Mertens :D. I'm trying to put the layout of a classic Oriental choreography into a western song by trying to 'translate' that song with my body the way we would in Oriental Dance. It's an interesting path I must say. Wim's music is full of intricate layers and emotion.

It'll be a one time thing though and for an audience that consists of dancer who know their stuff, mainly. I'm not a fusion dancer and never will be. After this one I will head back towards deepening my knowledge of Egyptian dances and contemporary Cairo styles. :cool:
 
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Shanazel

Super Moderator
An experiment I occasionally assign my students is to dance to a traditional middle eastern piece of music, then to something really western (Toby Keith or hiphop:D) and compare the two experiences. The continuing students "get it" right away and even most of the beginners can tell a difference between watching dancers bop to Toby vs. dancing to Hossam Ramzy.

Hey, Paigan, one of the biggest disagreements I ever witnessed was between two very dignified ladies at a meeting of the African Violet Club. I thought they were going to take off their diamond rings and come to blows over a difference of opinion re: fertilizing plants in winter.

Heat up the wine in that cauldron and toss in some mulling spices, 'cause we do rumble at times. :dance:

 
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LunaXJJ

New member
Yep -- I've enjoyed tossing a bit of Celtic or Celtic Rock at our coffeehouse audience (just one dance surrounded by more traditional fare). There's plenty to work with in them, rhythm-wise. I'm going to bounce some Alanis Morisette lyrics off our instructor to see if they'd be welcome at the coffeehouse or if I need to bring it to the bar where the Urban ATS ladies dance, instead (no swearing, just . . . direct.)
I'm glad we could steer away from the unpleasantness this thread ran into. Different opinions doesn't always mean a fight has to ensue, sometimes we just need to agree to disagree, and let it go.

I once heard someone say "Fighting on the internet is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded." XD You gotta admit, with some arguments, that's absolutely true.

I love Alanis, not so much her later stuff, but her early stuff was amazing. =] I might try that out myself some time. I don't know about how country would work, partially because I'm not very fond of it myself. I have a theory about music and dance. All music has the basic 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 beat. When you dance, any type of dance, has the same basic structure. By simply increasing or decreasing the speed, you can dance to anything with anything. If you've seen someone do the chicken dance to heavy metal, you know what I mean. XD
 
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gisela

Super Moderator
I have a theory about music and dance. All music has the basic 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 beat. When you dance, any type of dance, has the same basic structure.
Not sure if I am misunderstanding you here, but there is PLENTY of music and dance that don't have the 1-2-3-4 beat but instead maybe 1-2-3, 1-2, 1-2-3-4-5, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 etc
Even in 1234 music and dance the accent can be on 1 and 3 or 2 and 4 or just on the "and". I think the finess of acknowledging the music in dance is to not just go over it like a marching band 1234, 1234 but to pick up those small differences in beat and rhythm (and melody etc of course, but this was a beat example)
 

Roshanna

New member
I do sometimes practise to 'inappropriate' music, either because it's what I happen to be listening to or as a fun challenge. I don't think I would perform with it though - I did consider it for a while, but decided that it would probably be crap. I'd still like to try to choreograph to something weird at some point, but as a relative newbie it seems better to stick with ME music.

My sinful bellydancing favourites are Gogol Bordello, Gwen Stefani, the Doors, the Birthday Party, Bauhaus and Sex Gang Children. I like dancing to 80s goth/post punk music as there is often quite dense, tribal-sounding drumming and a lot of sudden tempo changes and strange atmospheric noises that are good for doing wavy hand gestures :D
 

Kashmir

New member
I have a theory about music and dance. All music has the basic 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4 beat. When you dance, any type of dance, has the same basic structure. By simply increasing or decreasing the speed, you can dance to anything with anything.
Umm, no, not really. You cannot dance 1 2 3 4 to 3/4 or 5/8 or 7/8 or 9/8 or 10/4 - all common ME time signatures. If you do your dance won't fit the music!
 

illustria

New member
There's this song in the opening credits of HBO's True Blood. It's "Bad Things" by Jace Everett. Bellydancing to it, I believe, would be sinful - BUT I SO WANT TO!!!

Oh, lovely. Now that it's off my chest, i can go back to my day job...
 
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