Importing a sword to the UK

[Bellydance Oz]

Hi

Can anyone tell me what the current situation is with swords in the UK?

I've found a few threads from a couple of years ago, talking about restrictions on swords due to changes in weapons laws. From what I can see, owning a sword is not a problem, and buying a sword from a UK store is also not a problem - but in 2010, buying a sword from Egypt was impossible, because British customs wouldn't allow it into the country.

Is that still the same?

 

[Fencai]

as far as from what I have seen, they are still not able to ship swords into the UK or Japan

sorry to be the grim reaper

 

[Emmab81]

I am not in the uk so unsure about restrictions on swords, is the restriction only on swords from Egypt or also from USA etc??? I would say the easiest thing would be to call customs and ask if there are any restrictions on importing swords, I would make sure that I specified ornamental blunt sword then if u can get it into the country I would ask the seller to mark the box 'contents: blunt ornamental sword - display purposes only'

 

[Pleasant dancer]

Might be better to avoid using the word "sword" at all. Use "dance balancing prop" instead.

 

[Yorkshire Lass]

Probably better to check with Customs dept directly. I think it depends if it's considered an offensive weapon or not.

Their website is here

HMRC Contact us

Apparently there's a customs information contact number down as 0845 010 9000 which you could consider calling and asking for information. They might be able to point you in the correct directions.

 

[Emmab81]

Might be better to avoid using the word "sword" at all. Use "dance balancing prop" instead.

I was thinking that if they xrayed it and saw a great big simitar then you are less likely to have delays or issues if you have pointed out that it is display only where as if you write dance prop and they see it is a sword then are they going to say 'dance prop my a!@$ that's a sword!' and that can cause issues?

I don't know, I am in Australia and have sword posted to me with no probs, last time I got a sword into the UK was 1998 and it came with me on the plane - had to go in the cock pit with the pilot though couldnt go in my luggage, which I figured was fine as I figured it would be less banged about in the cockpit than in a suitcase - but I am getting off poing

 

[Pleasant dancer]

I was thinking that if they xrayed it and saw a great big simitar then you are less likely to have delays or issues if you have pointed out that it is display only where as if you write dance prop and they see it is a sword then are they going to say 'dance prop my a!@$ that's a sword!' and that can cause issues?

I don't know, I am in Australia and have sword posted to me with no probs, last time I got a sword into the UK was 1998 and it came with me on the plane - had to go in the cock pit with the pilot though couldnt go in my luggage, which I figured was fine as I figured it would be less banged about in the cockpit than in a suitcase - but I am getting off poing

Good point. I know it's easier to sell on Ebay if you don't mention sword" (as I once did!). Swords are on their banned list.

 

[Aniseteph]

There was one on UK eBay just the other week listed as a sword and it didn't get taken down. I guess if they don't get flagged no one notices, or maybe the dance accessories section doesn't get policed much! I've seen them for sale at big events, not a lot of choice though. Hilary Thacker in Edinburgh seems to have a decent selection, if the website is up to date.

FWIW I don't think decorative use gets you off the hook - it's the curved blade they are bothered about. Customs' site says "offensive weapons including swords with a curved blade exceeding 50cms in length" are banned but "in certain cases may be brought into the UK if you have the relevant licence, permit or defence".

IMO most BD swords are no more blades than a steel ruler is a blade, but if they insist it's a sword, and some do look pretty realistic, I guess you just have to prove theatrical use i.e. you are a belly dancer and not a dangerous loon who is going to run amok in the high street. No idea what counts as proof - pics, performer's insurance, note from teacher...?

I wouldn't try to mess with customs by not using the S word, just be honest and jump through whatever hoops they ask.

 

[juliewren]

Tried to buy a sword from Ireland

I actually bought a sword from an Irish private seller on Ebay this week. It was a sword she bought in England at the Bellydance Congress. When she went to post it, the woman at the post office refused to send it. I suspect she wrote 'sword' on the customs declaration. It's odd as I do kung fu, and am legally allowed to own a sharp 'combat ready' sword of which I have quite a few, but I supposedly can't buy a sword to dance with. I really want the sword from the Irish seller, and I'm hoping she'll try to send it again, but label it 'belly dancing prop. It's worth a try.

 

[khanjar]

The only way I believe quite possibly that a sword might legally be imported or bought is as if it were a theatrical prop, because the law exempts theatrical use, so could it be belly dance performance is theatrical use ? So perhaps if sword has to be labelled, perhaps include the term ''theatrical prop'', or just call it that as that is what it is in terms of belly dance. The key in UK law it seems is definition, the naming terms not the object.

But this ill thought out law that came in the wake of an MP being killed with a samuri style sword by a disgruntled voter does not in fact prevent samuri swords being imported and owned legally, the law I believe is aimed at other curved swords with a blade length of 50cm or more, which for the sake of belly dancing includes the Persian talwar design, which is a form of scimitar or shamsir, the family and origins of the design are the same. Also are banned are the Turkish Kilic and the Arabian and mamluke derived saif, which includes the US Marine corp officer sword, which is a mamluke design because the blade is curved and over 50cm long. But curious perhaps that this law being conceived after a member of parliament was murdered with a samuri style sword, samuri swords are not banned, neither are straight bladed swords, so one can see, it does not make a lot of sense and only goes on to affect legitimate users not the criminal or ill minded as usual.

But as the law in the UK is open to interpretation it seems, this law can be challenged by user groups, so I ask why not as belly dancers challenge this law as perhaps raise a petition on the No10 website or lobby your MP, perhaps even invite your MP to a belly dance event where sword dance is performed then make the case as minds can be changed and exemptions to the existing law can be added to if it is shown the laws that are created are actually wrong and effect the wrong people's enjoyment and education and it could be argued ; health, because if laws are not challenged the public become disgruntled and law loses it's respect.

But an old article from The United Kingdom Blade Forum on the subject of banned swords;

Swords and the Law

Another old article from Tribe.net ;

Swords banned in the UK

The web is full of it, so questions have been asked, but curiously not much in terms or recent questions, so perhaps most have just accepted what they believe to be the law and not seen fit to keep the subject alive.

But to remember laws like these are created by clueless people, clueless in the respect that all they see is malice and never see legitimate use, as one has just got to consider who drafted this law, and did they actually know anything about any of the activities that would be effected - likely as not, hence 'knee jerk' and not the precision tool it should be , but a hefty club to bludgeon legitimate use. Not that it will ever stop those that the law was intended for, the murderous minded, who if they can't grab a sword, will grab any other weapon, perhaps even a stick

But perhaps start and e-petition, carefully word it and publicise it, the law can be changed to suit our purpose, if we but believe and make the effort;

HM Government e-petitions

 

[jenc]

As usual - the government have made something of a hash of this by overreacting. I believe that you can get an exemption by being a collector - as if someone who was obsessed enough with sharp objects enough to surround themselves with them is by definition not going to go beserk.
as for dancers, I believe that at on e time the proposal was that you would have to produce an equity card

 

[Shanazel]

When dance swords are outlawed only outlaws will have dance swords.

 

[juliewren]

Why is it that Hillary in Scotland is legally allowed to sell them (and I'm greatful she does), but a privated seller can't? Are they usually for sale at Haflas/Bellydance gatherings still ? I worry now about buying one on Ebay from, let's say Egypt, in case my money goes out but the sword never makes it to me. As someone who already owns quite a few swords for tai chi and kung fu, buying swords online is always a gamble. I prefer to 'try before you buy', but that isn't always an option.

 

[Aniseteph]

I've seen them at big belly dance events in the UK. IIRC there's something in the legislation about the legal offence being making/ supplying them to someone who shouldn't have it. Not the buying or owning it. The seller might want to protect themselves by seeing some evidence that you are indeed a belly dancer, or maybe the fact that you are at a BD festival is enough. I've never tried to buy one so I don't know if they want any proof.

Of course you will still run into problems with people who think it's an offensive weapon.

 

[khanjar]

Yeah, think of the problems I have, because I have been asked to make them for a local troupe, they knowing I am a metal smith and have a forge, and in fact have had some bits of related jewellery off me before.

I will need to look deeper into this, for I have the patterns, dimensions etc for a Ottoman style kilij, a design I believe measured from one of the exhibits at Topkapi palace

 

[Aniseteph]

Yeah I'd definitely be digging into the legislation before arming the local troupe!

Out of interest, are they made the same way you'd make a "real" sword, say for re-enactments (or are those all totally fakey too and not like the real deal etither?)? How do you need to adjust them for belly dance - is it just a matter of leaving them blunt and weighting the handle? What about the weighting so it balances on edge? Do they have to be lighter than the real deal to not leave dents in dancers' heads?

And isn't it very expensive to do a proper crafted job? I've seen some BD swords that looked like something you'd poke the fire with (OK maybe not, they might melt). Reenactment theatrical swords OTOH - £££££££££. :shok:

 

[khanjar]

I used to make re-enactment swords to the viking standard, that is the viking re enactment design which encompassed a five pence radiused point and a 2mm dull edge and the lot made out of EN45 spring steel and case hardened, so no not traditional, but modern metal would cut an ancient weapon in half, so there is no need to go down the trad route any more, but damascene patterning found on the best can be etched with acid.

Swords of the belly dance design, so far traditional weights suffice, as the point of balance appears to be about between two and four inches in front of the quillion, but custom balancing can be done by weighting or not weighting the handle, it is the only place that this can be done to keep the design true. Ancient weapons were also balanced for the user.

Now the law as I understand it provides one may own a sword shaped object if they have a legitimate use for it aside from killing that is, dance swords are dance swords they are a prop for dancing a certain style, so are in fact as far as I can ascertain a theatrical prop, which is exempted from the current law. As to point and edge that will be down to the purchaser and what they want, as who is to stop them sharpening a dull edge, mind with case hardening spring steel they would have to work hard, that process makes the surface almost impenetrable unless one uses diamond or works hard with a silicon carbide stone and oil, but the hardness also resists dings and dents which without can make a safe dull edge pretty nasty.

But when it comes to making the first forays into making these things I think I will consult a good lawyer to ascertain what I propose to do is legal, as I can't have belly dancers being the cause of a bad name and if I do make these things, they will only be available to bona fide dancers not the passing fancy for I have no wish to put weapons in circulation despite the fact that there is a great many already.

It was also my idea as I can inlay into the metal a contrasting metal,perhaps brass or bronze or even gold if they can afford it, the koftgari method, names in Arabic calligraphy, for I have a source who can translate western sounds into Arabic script to make the prop personal and perhaps more secure in terms of theft.

 

[Aniseteph]

Ooh, if I ever wanted to spend silly money on a sword...

 

[juliewren]

Actually, swords made in the 'traditional' way are exempt from the law, as are swords from 'known' forges like the Dragon Well forges in China Tthough many of those produce cheap swords of dubious quality). Khanjar, I'd be really interested in more information about the swords you make. I use the Chinese jian and dao for tai chi and kung fu, and an always looking for a good swordsmith. You can PM me . Do you have a website?

 

[juliewren]

Criminal Justice act and swords as offensive weapons.

This is the legislature about swords. It is rediculously cobbled together by people who have no knowledge of experience fo any sort of bladed weapon.


Swords and the Law