Kasimir Satler

Kashmir

New member
He is an interesting fire performer - but I can't see any belly dance - "pure classical" or any other sort - at least in the first two minutes after which I gave up.
 

LOLIFIR

New member
He is an interesting fire performer - but I can't see any belly dance - "pure classical" or any other sort - at least in the first two minutes after which I gave up.
And what you are looking for only "classics"?? I think that this is free to use elements of "belly dance" ... That is something that most can be called "Oriental" ...;)
What is more important - emotional and originality ... or dance like everyone else, as always??
What's more important - the soul, or "belly":lol:
I liked the energy dance. I liked the originality and novelty, and lack of affectation and womanishness, so characteristic of many other men - "belly dance." :(
 

LilithNoor

New member
What's more important - the soul, or "belly"
Well, given this is a bellydance forum...

I quite like a bit of fire fusion, but this is not really my thing. Too much stage dramatics, and the way the video cuts and fades so frequently makes it impossible to judge any level of emotion or soul.

I'm also not massively keen on people who praise their preferred dancer by insulting other dancers!
 

Kashmir

New member
And what you are looking for only "classics"?? I think that this is free to use elements of "belly dance" ... That is something that most can be called "Oriental" ...;)
What is more important - emotional and originality ... or dance like everyone else, as always??
What's more important - the soul, or "belly":lol:(
No, I am looking for belly dance. Belly dance has a number of elements - movement vocabulary - there is little but not much in this clip; cultural links - there is none in this dance - neither the music nor the interpretation of the music.

So what link is there to belly dance? Only that he calls himself a male belly dancer. Without that label I'd call the clip a fire performance.

"Orientale" has two definitions - a broad one meaning any belly dance that is not folkloric or Tribal and a narrow one meaning belly dance to a specific classical style of Egyptian music. This is neither.

If you want originality and self expression then why limit yourself to belly dance which can only do this within set parameters? Otherwise you are just dancing - nothing wrong with that. Just drop the "belly" label.
 

LOLIFIR

New member
Well, given this is a bellydance forum...

I quite like a bit of fire fusion, but this is not really my thing. Too much stage dramatics, and the way the video cuts and fades so frequently makes it impossible to judge any level of emotion or soul.!
In my opinion, the "belly dance" is not only a "belly" but are participating and many other important parts of the body.:naghty:
Let's not forget that the name "belly dance" coined in Europe ... and it sounds like something rude and it makes little sense ;)
I'm also not massively keen on people who praise their preferred dancer by insulting other dancers!
Did I offend someone of the dancers in person??:D

No, I am looking for belly dance. Belly dance has a number of elements - movement vocabulary - there is little but not much in this clip; cultural links - there is none in this dance - neither the music nor the interpretation of the music..
In this video, I counted 5 or 6 different dances that are imposed on a music. It is easy to see, if not look for 2 minutes.
Especially since it's not a dance but a few ...
I watched this video more as a display of various dance and a dancer.
Probably we were looking at ways;)
So what link is there to belly dance? Only that he calls himself a male belly dancer. Without that label I'd call the clip a fire performance..
And not only the performance of fire ... And the serpent performance ...
And plastic and graceful movements of performance ...
Do you think that it would be better if he was half dancing, vibrating belly with a sweet smile for Egyptian music?? I understand that it is familiar, but it is so, so much:(

"Orientale" has two definitions - a broad one meaning any belly dance that is not folkloric or Tribal and a narrow one meaning belly dance to a specific classical style of Egyptian music. This is neither..
I will not argue ... I think it's "fusion" ...
I always thought that "Oriental" has a very wide meaning - from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains:pray:.
Once again, that in the mixed video 5 or 6 different dances.
Maybe he is dancing and not a pure and virginal "Belly dance", but that's for sure, "Oriental".
This is clearly not the French minuet:lol:
If you want originality and self expression then why limit yourself to belly dance which can only do this within set parameters? Otherwise you are just dancing - nothing wrong with that. Just drop the "belly" label.
Excuse me, do you really think that I - this is the Casimir, who dances in the video??
Maybe I do not understand you correctly ...
As the saying goes "everyone has his opinion" ...
I just showed you the new video that impressed me (as a woman and as a dancer):wall:.
You immediately began to look for flaws in its video, which I dared to put here ..
But it's similar to when the doctor sees in every person in the first place a potential patient, and each kitten - the experimental animal:(.
 

Darshiva

Moderator
LOLIFIR, Kashmir has the honour of being a very experienced (approx 20 years) and very highly respected bellydancer - very well travelled and educated in this dance. Her opinion does not come lightly.

You are being very condescending for no apparent reason. Perhaps you are the Kasimir in the video and were hoping for a better response? If so, it would be in your best interests to upload or link to a less edited video, one that shows the skills you speak of to people who don't know what they can't see in the video you linked to because it's not there. It has been edited out.

We love and adore each and every one of the male bellydancers on this forum. They are cherished regardless of ability or style because men are such a rarity in this dance style. Any criticism of this performer comes from the fact that if there is any bellydance in this video, it has been edited out in the making of the video. Simply put, it's a nice enough medley, but it does not show Kasimir's bellydancing skills in the best light. To me (with my mere 8 years of bellydance as opposed to Kashmir's 20ish) it comes across as a trick & prop showcase. A very skilled one, but I don't see the bellydance either.

Please note that bellydance is as much about the music as it is about the moves - it shares a movement vocabulary with: ballroom, latin, ballet, jazz, hula, african, modern, hip hop, the list goes on. Just because something has certain moves from the bellydance vocabulary doesn't make it bellydance. Just because the costume fits or the props are the same does not make it bellydance. Simply speaking, we need more information to see the dancer the way you do. So, could you please link to a video that shows us what you see in it?
 

Kashmir

New member
I'm going to assume you are just new to belly dance and not a troll and answer some of your points.
No, I am looking for belly dance. Belly dance has a number of elements - movement vocabulary - there is little but not much in this clip; cultural links - there is none in this dance - neither the music nor the interpretation of the music..
In this video, I counted 5 or 6 different dances that are imposed on a music. It is easy to see, if not look for 2 minutes.
Are you trying to say you can see 5 or 6 movements that are part of the belly dance vocabulary? Over 6 minutes? Apart from belly dance not being just a bunch of moves - if you can only spot one here and one there (assuming they are ) it doesn't make the performance belly dance. Without context, a shimmy might be South American, a hip circle part of hula. a hip lift jazz.
And not only the performance of fire ... And the serpent performance ...
And plastic and graceful movements of performance ...
Do you think that it would be better if he was half dancing, vibrating belly with a sweet smile for Egyptian music?? I understand that it is familiar, but it is so, so much:(
Neither fire nor snakes are actually part of belly dance. Most dance should be graceful - ballet is graceful, Bharatanatyam is graceful, even Ceroc is graceful. None are belly dance.

If you think belly dance is " half dancing, vibrating belly with a sweet smile for Egyptian music" - then you have a lot to learn - even just about Egyptian belly dance (and there are lots of other valid styles of belly dance). Vibrating bellies is a tiny part of belly dance and most often seen the US not Egypt. In fact, you tone suggests you don't actually know - or like - belly dance.

I will not argue ... I think it's "fusion" ...
I always thought that "Oriental" has a very wide meaning - from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains:pray:.
Once again, that in the mixed video 5 or 6 different dances.
Maybe he is dancing and not a pure and virginal "Belly dance", but that's for sure, "Oriental".
Actually , "fusion" menas there has to be at least two styles of dance (or dance and music). For it to be fusion - there has to be recognizible belly dance elements.

The word "Orientale" when used in belly dance has a specific meaning - it does not mean " from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains". It is short hand for danse orientale - which is a French translation of the Arabic raqs sharqi - nothing more.

If you call your dance "Oriental" you don't have free rein to do anything vaguely related from from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains - you are doing an Egyptian style dance; usually to Egyptian music with an Arabic interpretation. No fire. No snakes. Lots of hips, some footwork, arms that frame - possibly some Arabic gestures. All of it tied to the music. A deaf person watching a good belly dancer should be able to hear the music.
 

Aniseteph

New member
To be fair the clip is labelled bally dance. <ducks and covers>

Seriously - I saw some moves that looked tribal fusion-y, but as has been pointed out, with that music over the top it's just so much (skillful) movement vocabulary.

Snakes and fire, bare bellies, slave boys, low slung skirts and turbans do not make something belly dance; they are just so much showbiz schtick to persuade people they are seeing something exotically middle eastern, or even belly dance. It ain't necessarily so.

LOLIFIR said:
I always thought that "Oriental" has a very wide meaning - from the coast of Morocco, to India and Iran, and from the sources of the Nile to the Caucasus Mountains
No. Dictionary-wise it means Eastern, which is pretty useless on a forum like this when we are on different sides of the planet. In general non-BD usage, hereabouts it would suggest countries like China and Japan to me. Lumping together a huge sweep of countries from Morrocco to India is... well, dictionary-definition of Orientalist really, and not a good thing. :naghty:

IMO Kashmir is spot on with her definition of oriental in the BD usage - it's much more specific.
 

Afrit

New member
I am a bally dancer. I once took a Zumba class - and that is very like bally dance.

I am a bally dancer I have a bally dance DVD that I watched once.

I am a bally dancer - I have a skirt, fire and a snake. So now I am a professional bally dancer.
 

Shanazel

Super Moderator
I've been around long enough to know the difference between belly dance and a circus act. This is a circus act.

LOLIFIR translates phonetically to low-lifer. Poor choice of pseudonym or a honest evaluation of self- worth?
 
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Tarik Sultan

New member
I really don't like when peole put another music track over videos. It makes it impossible to tell what they really dance like. whether this guy is a belly dancer or not.... I don't think this video is the best choice to judge him by. Are there any videos of him doing a performance that cold show us what he really dances like?
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
It's not important, because some on stage, while others write here.
I don't think anyone was being critical of his level of dancing, ir his skill as a performer, only whether or not it meets the criteria to be considered part of this dance form. That's something very different. I think everyone agrees that there is talent and entertainment value in that clip, we are just not sure if it represents our dance form because we don't see any of those elements in it. I'm not saying he isn't, its just that the way the thing is edited all we see are the fire performance elements, perhaps the identifying elements wee edited out because they wanted to highlight the fire dance elements? In which case I would say it would have been better to put more of the dance routine in the clip with the original sound tracks and less of the fier dancing so things would be more balanced.
 

Carnivorous

New member
It's shame that video is just a montage, it's hard to see more than one movement from any routine.

I agree with Tarik that the fiery-ness seems more of the focus, but that's not really surprising because promotional materials often focus on the most "showy" aspect of a performance - just think of how many times we've all seen Rachel Brice backbend even though it's one move she does quite rarely throughout a show.

Other than that, i'm pretty sure i recognise the guy, i'm sure there is another video of him doing a drum solo which is much more bellydance.

I'd personally call this more Burlesque-y
 
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