Lower class dancing in Egypt

[atisheh]

As the result of several Facebook threads on the range of dancing in Egypt, and especially on lower-class dancing, I came across the documentary "Dancers." It's... quite sad, but very much worth watching. I have a few thoughts on it here:

http://atisheh.com/2015/01/06/some-thoughts-on-dancers-the-documentary-about-egyptian-performers/

I'd love to hear the thoughts and experiences of board members. I've never been to Egypt, and am generally pretty okay with the sexual aspects of the dance, but I did find it sad how joyless and forced so much of the dancing in this documentary was.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I think this exemplifies the vast differences between the indigenous cultures of contemporary Egypt and that of the west.

We in the west LOVE the pretty frilly picture of the belly dancer. She's practically a princess! Some costumes even come with tiaras. We fantasize and idealize the profession because we CAN. Because it's cool to be a belly dancer here. It's counter-culture. It's something college-educated women do to express their sexuality and personal creativity during their free time. We don't HAVE to do it. We choose to do it, and we choose our audiences. It's not work; it's fun. Belly dance in the west is a luxury activity, both for the performers and for the audience. It's a pretty big industry that is self-supporting.

It's NOT a luxury activity for many Egyptians. It's a very difficult way of putting food on the table.

I mean in a way, this dichotomy is similar to the vast difference between sewing your own clothes for fun and working in a sweatshop, isn't it?

 

[atisheh]

It's NOT a luxury activity for many Egyptians. It's a very difficult way of putting food on the table.

I mean in a way, this dichotomy is similar to the vast difference between sewing your own clothes for fun and working in a sweatshop, isn't it?

Yes, yes! It's one thing to be genuinely interested in something and to do it on your own terms, even if it is hard work when you do it. Quite another to do something whether or not you had an inclination for it, and be forced to do it a lot to make ends meet.

You got me with the tiara thing... it is a princess fantasy of a sort, isn't it?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I've thought about that a lot. Belly dance is kind of like the adult fantasy princess dance in the way that little girls view ballet. I mean, just LOOK at our costumes! LOL! Dripping with beads and sequins and coins and gorgeous swirling fabrics. It's the one dance we can do that doesn't require a partner or 14 years of daily classes.

 

[Jeanne]

For anyone interested in this topic, "A Trade Like Any Other" is a must-read.
http://www.amazon.com/Trade-like-Any-Other-Singers/dp/0292787235

 

[Sophia Maria]

For anyone interested in this topic, "A Trade Like Any Other" is a must-read.
http://www.amazon.com/Trade-like-Any-Other-Singers/dp/0292787235

I actually just got it for Christmas and am looking forward to diving into it!

This is a great topic, and something I've thought a lot about.

I think the sewing analogy is very legitimate. Especially in a country where the job market is already poor, education is not it's best, and opportunities for women are scarce.

What I'm actually very interested in is perhaps an explanation of how dancing got to be far more accepted in America and Europe, because as we know, at one time ballerinas were pretty much assumed to be "women of the night", so to speak...(the men as well, actually). I'm wondering if the Middle East will follow suit at some point, or whether the contexts are way too different. For America and Europe, I'm trying to think what it was... Feminist movements?

I'm thinking perhaps changes in the functioning of the business itself can also have a big impact on the art. Maybe if a society has more funding or endowments for the arts, artists don't have to scrounge as much for anyone who will pay. Also, I feel like there's also a huge difference in the business in terms of classes vs shows. At least in the states and in France, classes are the main business for a dancer, often daily or weekly, whereas shows are less frequent. Perhaps this allows the dancer more freedom to choose her venue or not "sell out", so to speak. If a dancer depends on booking as many shows as possible because they are his/her only source of income, he/she may end up in uncomfortable or compromising situations.

Letting my mind wander...

 

[Shanazel]

Things have changed just in the decades since I took my first classes. Working as a belly dancer in the northern Rocky Mountains even part time in the mid-seventies gave one a reputation of being a bohemian with loose morals, at the very best. I can't tell you how many times I was approached about providing sexual favors as well as a dance performance. Some folks simply assumed sleeping with the groom to be was part of the package which is the exact reason I never did bachelor parties.

I usually had another job while I was dancing; not only was there not enough business in my part of the world to keep me employed 40 hours per week as a dancer, but having that other job made it possible for me to turn down jobs that I knew would put me in danger- the University of Wyoming's rugby team parties come immediately to mind. NO dancer in her right mind would dance for those guys in 1978.

Had it been my only source of income, I shudder to think of the conditions I'd have faced. When I was watching that very excellent documentary, I was reminded of my friends and acquaintances who were exotic dancers and whose histories were appalling like the dancers in the film. Abused children leaving home early, taken in by supposedly benevolent men and women who sooner or later put the runaway children to work... if I was a film maker, I'd make a documentary about exotic dancers in America- not the ones who choose to dance but those who have had to.

 

[Sophia Maria]

the University of Wyoming's rugby team parties come immediately to mind. NO dancer in her right mind would dance for those guys in 1978.

:shok::shok::shok::shok::shok: Or in 2015!! I mean, for me personally, dancing for only women is ideal, dancing for mixed audiences is fine. Never men only--every time I think about that, I think about that Haifa and Hakim video and go eww...

But it's kind of the sad thing, though, that often money has the last word. Entertainers have done pretty much all these things because they felt like they didn't have another choice. That's why people in many societies have those thoughts about dancers, because while their thoughts may be unfounded in your particular case, they are certainly based on reality.

Interesting point about dancers in America. I have known people who have worked in stripclubs, because they needed the money for things they needed, like food or education. I supported them because it gave them independence, but it always seemed sad, because they were not concerned with dancing, they were concerned with the money and power it could give them. (Important note: they both chose this)

The choices that freedom and independence give you are so important. I've never worked as a dancer, so I don't have direct experience, but even among my friend groups I noticed a certain aspect of being a dancer which is important--do you or do you not choose your audience? When I first started out, I was so excited about it that I would dance whenever and wherever, for whichever friends or acquaintances (I mean, still never only men, but), even if I realized that for some reason some part of that situation was uncomfortable. In the past couple years I've learned when to get up and "raq" out, and when to sit still and decline politely. I find that really changed the level of respect I got from friends and acquaintances, both arab and non-arab. When you choose and decline certain audiences, even on an informal level, you show that you really are all about the dance, not just about impressing or catering to people. Some people don't have that freedom of choice.

 

[Shanazel]

No, they don't, unfortunately for them. I occasionally danced for all male audiences way back when (I'm pretty sure I spotted Noah in one crowd) but when I did, I took my very own pet biker with me for body guard duty. I was told his presence probably affected my tips but I was more concerned with my safety. My day jobs at that time all involved outdoor work and for several months during each winter, I depended on my dance money to supplement what I'd managed to save during field season. Finances were pretty thin back then so I did a few things I'd rather not have done.

But no rugby teams. When the bumper stickers say "Rugby players eat their dead," I believe them.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Hate to say I told ya so......

The article was short and to the point. This is pretty much what I've been trying to get across to people, (often times on this very forum), for years. There is a world's of diference between what we do and the fantasy as seen in the old movies etc. Is the dance an art? Yes it is. Does it have artistic merit? Absolutely. However, the reality of the context in which it exists in Egypt is often overlooked. The Fifi's and the Sohairs are only a handfull, the overwhelming majority.... quite something else. I've stressed over and over again that there is a big difference between social dance and professional dance. This is one of the reasons why I keep saying if you really want to know the dance, you have to first look at the social dance. The professional dance is only one small aspect and often times, not the best representative. They are not appreciated as artists, nor are they hired for their talent. Sad fact but true.

There was one sentence which I found very poignant, that the men danced better than the entertainers. Well, as you all know, I've been a leading advocate for the fact that the dance is inherantly unisex, but here's the thing..... Of course they were better, they were dancing from a place of joy, which is what the dance really is, those dancers are not. How could they be? In an environment where they are not even seen as human beings, how could they be joyful?

We live in a world of multiple realities and possibilities. This applies not just to dance, but everything in life. When you look at a person, you are looking at raw potential. It's like a plant, put it in an environment where it has fertile soil, sunlight and clean water and it will flurish. Put it in the dark, in poor soil and inadequate water, it will struggle to just survive. The potential of what the dance can be at its best and what we see in the Cairo back streets is the difference between a pure mountain stream and a sewer. Sad, but true. We humans have a talent for taking the most beautiful things in life and polluting and disfiguring them.. To dance in that environment, is a wonderful thing full of light and joy, to be a dancer, more often than not.... not so much. Why? because of the limitations of the visions and minds of the majority. Very few people that you will ever meet in life have the ability to think outside the box or to see the hidden potential in the things or people around them. We are all like the seeds of the most beautiful flowers waiting under the concrete for a crack to grow. Some of us are just lucky enough to live in abandoned parts of town!;-)

 

[Sophia Maria]

..... Of course they were better, they were dancing from a place of joy, which is what the dance really is, those dancers are not. How could they be? In an environment where they are not even seen as human beings, how could they be joyful?

Well said!

Yes, it frustrates me too...I think it's important to talk about the reality of the situation as much as we can stand, to spread knowledge. Dancers really need to know, I feel, because...I don't know--in a way, the story of oriental dance is not complete without knowing the ugly side of it. That is to say, dancing is not just about sequins, stages, clapping and supportive audiences, it's also about poverty, desperation, exploitation. If you can't see it, it still exists, you're just privileged enough to be safe from it.

 

[Shanazel]

but it always seemed sad, because they were not concerned with dancing, they were concerned with the money and power it could give them.

I've been debating with myself about whether or not to respond to this. Obviously, I've decided to respond.

I love dancing. Always have. I love teaching, too, but truthfully even though I love my students, I would not get up an hour after leaving my day job and slog out into the snow every Wednesday evening to teach if I wasn't getting paid very well for it . It's my job. I expect to be paid for my expertise, such as it is. The money is important.

One of the first times I danced in public for a largely male audience, I looked at the crowd and realized that any one of those men would give me anything I wanted in return for an hour of my time. It was the first time in my life I had any sense of power over anything or anybody and it was an amazing feeling. I was smart enough to realize that the way I kept my power was to never grant that hour of my time, but after that, I was always aware of it. I liked it. It was definitely part of the allure of dancing in public along with getting paid for something I was very good at.

So there we have it: I was not dancing for the sheer joy of it. I still don't teach for the sheer joy of it. Performance and teaching are jobs- fairly unusual jobs and more pleasurable jobs than many, but still jobs. Sometimes I enjoyed performing; sometimes all I wanted to do was stay home with my cats and not put on makeup or those damned uncomfortable costumes.

Being able to dance only for the love of music and movement is a privilege that not everyone shares. Be kind in your thoughts toward those who can't afford that privilege.

 

[Sophia Maria]

I've been debating with myself about whether or not to respond to this. Obviously, I've decided to respond.

I love dancing. Always have. I love teaching, too, but truthfully even though I love my students, I would not get up an hour after leaving my day job and slog out into the snow every Wednesday evening to teach if I wasn't getting paid very well for it . It's my job. I expect to be paid for my expertise, such as it is. The money is important.

One of the first times I danced in public for a largely male audience, I looked at the crowd and realized that any one of those men would give me anything I wanted in return for an hour of my time. It was the first time in my life I had any sense of power over anything or anybody and it was an amazing feeling. I was smart enough to realize that the way I kept my power was to never grant that hour of my time, but after that, I was always aware of it. I liked it. It was definitely part of the allure of dancing in public along with getting paid for something I was very good at.

So there we have it: I was not dancing for the sheer joy of it. I still don't teach for the sheer joy of it. Performance and teaching are jobs- fairly unusual jobs and more pleasurable jobs than many, but still jobs. Sometimes I enjoyed performing; sometimes all I wanted to do was stay home with my cats and not put on makeup or those damned uncomfortable costumes.

Being able to dance only for the love of music and movement is a privilege that not everyone shares. Be kind in your thoughts toward those who can't afford that privilege.

I'm glad you did respond--I feel like what you're saying here really adds to the discussion!

I think this is the really important thing that we're getting at here; just dancing--being able to train yourself to become a great dancer, buying music, studying with good teachers--just for the sake of passion and personal interest is a luxury when all your other needs are taken care of. I am currently blessed enough to do this, the only caveat being that my budget is STRICT so I make sure I can take good classes. But that's it. It's a pretty dang comfortable life, and I am grateful for it.

However, even for people who don't dance as a job (and especially those who do), other things certainly come into play. If it's your job (or even second job) you have to make enough money. You have to keep students and audiences. And there are other things as well which vary from person to person--the anecdote about power is an interesting one.

Basically, what I've been trying to say through my posts on this thread is actually what you've expanded upon here When I mentioned that some only do it for the money or power, I was not making a general statement about people who dance for a living. I was talking specifically about a couple friends I have had who stripped, who described it in precisely those terms--dancing is only way to get people to do what you want. That was their opinion, and it was sad to hear it to that extreme. Like I said, I don't condemn that, and for someone who has very little power and money, it can be very fulfilling to feel that control over that part of their lives. I think that power and money is a factor is really a factor to how everyone makes decisions; all I'm saying is that basically I would be sad if that were my only driving force to dance.

 

[MizzNaaa]

Well that's yet another sad reality of Egypt's current culture and views on its own dance. Women in public sphere in ANY field even the 'respectable' jobs are scrutinized, judged, and found guilty regardless, now add to that equation something that has been sexualized like baladi dancing and of course that would be the result. These women for all intents and purposes are trafficked and treated like sex-workers, the dancing at this point doesn't matter, what matters is it's a female who is forced to bare her flesh and skin for men so her pimp could get money. The situation is multi faceted really cause it's not just about the dancing itself, or the way people view dancing. Again, it's about how Egyptians view women, their place and role in society, and how dancing publicly and for money breaks those rules, and how there are those who exploited these views to do what we see in that documentary.

The sad truth is, even in Egypt's "golden era' of dancing, the situation wasn't much different. Perhaps in ways less extreme, but the use of dancing as a profession was always equated with sex-work, even during times when people like Tahia Carioca and Samia Gamal and Naima Akef...etc existed.

Whether that will change or not remains to be seen. As an activist and a feminist I surely hope so, but what I know for a fact is that it'll take many years.

 

[Shanazel]

MizzNaaa, I am always so happy when you come here and share your thoughts. Thank you.

 

[Amulya]

After watching the clip, I'm thinking is 'what a nightmare for the dancers'. I totally understand they hate their job, there is nothing nice or fun about this, and dangerous on top of it as well. We have the luxury to choose our audiences, and that makes all the difference. Yes there are also horrible audiences in the west (all male/awful venues) but at least we can decide not to do those. I feel so sorry for these women they have to put up with those lewd men.
Did the first dancer also have a medical condition? She was mentioning weight gain from a treatment. The other needed heart surgery. I hope they can get out of this and have a nicer life. Though another dancer seemed to like the work.
The video made me want to know more about them, it was too short, so many questions unanswered.

Off topic, I was curious about the make up, why do they put a band of silvery white all over the middle section of their faces? It covers the eyes, nose and top of cheeks and after putting the rest of the make up its still very visibly there. MizzNaaa, is that a local fashion?

 

[MizzNaaa]

I don't know how to word this better but well, that's just their taste. Makeup is a tool to add color and be flashy for them and that's just how they do it. Also there's a lot of internalized racism and anti blackness involved too, which is why a lot of women especially from lower classes try to whiten their faces with makeup to appear lighter skinned. Tldr: a mix of personal taste and misconception about proper use of makeup as well as a bit of anti-darker skin involved?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I don't know how to word this better but well, that's just their taste. Makeup is a tool to add color and be flashy for them and that's just how they do it. Also there's a lot of internalized racism and anti blackness involved too, which is why a lot of women especially from lower classes try to whiten their faces with makeup to appear lighter skinned. Tldr: a mix of personal taste and misconception about proper use of makeup as well as a bit of anti-darker skin involved?

2,000yrs of being colonized by non Africans. I don't think it was deliberate as in the case of the Atlantic slave trade, but the result was the same, equating power, success, beauty with lightskin. It's a psychological thing. Back in the day when Egypt was a majpr world power African features were what people copied. Braided hair styles, coils and afros were top fashion. You can see the Afro wigs at the Cairo museum.

It was also a time when being a woman was valued. People always marvel at the amount of independence that women in Egypt had as compared to the rest of the Ancient World, but this was quite common in African cultures and still is to this day. The line of descent was through the mother's line, not the father. To be pharaoh you had to marry a woman of the royal blood. Just reminds me of the saying behind every great man is a woman. It's sad to see the result of colonialism on Egypt. The loss of it's language and culture and the rise of both sexism and racism. The things that are so wonderful about Egypt are the things they are blind to. The wonderful variety of skin tones, features, hair textures are the things that they are ashamed of. To be beautiful in Egypt, you have to look as non Egyptian as possible WTF?! The principle of honoring the divine feminine and the balance of masculine and feminine is gone. Now, no one wants a daughter, only a son. What would happen if everybody got their wish?

I wish the remedy were as simple as a return to pride in the ancient way of life, a restoration of the Coptic language. However, because of christianity and Islam, that will never happen. The spirituality that honored the creative force as both masculine and feminine and honored the balance of nature is replaced with the idea that the old ways were devil worship. That mankind is separate from nature and man is above woman. When we fail to realize that we are all connected, we all have an important role to play in the divine order of things, this is what we get. The way we treat women is reflected in the way we treat Mother Earth, we use her, pollute her and take her for granted. We take that which is beautiful and turn it into ugliness. I place more judgement on the men in this scenario than I do the women. If they were valued, respected, this wouldn't exist.

 

[Amulya]

I don't know how to word this better but well, that's just their taste. Makeup is a tool to add color and be flashy for them and that's just how they do it. Also there's a lot of internalized racism and anti blackness involved too, which is why a lot of women especially from lower classes try to whiten their faces with makeup to appear lighter skinned. Tldr: a mix of personal taste and misconception about proper use of makeup as well as a bit of anti-darker skin involved?

Yes, I was wondering if it had to do with skin whitening, but then the rest of the face isn't done in a lighter colour, so probably just a fashion thing in makeup. It's kind of silvery white, maybe the idea is that the make up stands out better with that underneath? Coincidentally I saw a tip on a make up site yesterday where they mentioned putting white underneath eyeshadow to make it look brighter, but that was only on the upper eye lids.

 

[Tanglefoot]

An eye opener, I posted in a local FB bellydance group, to be deleted by the owner, where why I wonder , doesn't reality interest and then though, why of course reality as it applies to poor majorities smashes fantasies, of which could be seen as a bit of a colonial mentality.

But one thing has to be said about western bellydance fantasy is that perhaps it keeps a cultural art alive in the face of oppressive regimes, alive so that when cultures wake up to their loss they may find what they have lost somewhere in other cultures fantasy.