Aniseteph
New member
Out of interest and with the "history of BD in the UK" thread in my mind, what was the date on that article?
Male Belly Dancers
- Thread starter L42yB
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Out of interest and with the "history of BD in the UK" thread in my mind, what was the date on that article?
Yes, exactly!!! :clap:
I've been telling my bf (L42yB) to not worry about what I term "male bullshit propaganda", for example the preconception a lot of UK men have that men don't dance etc.
(Not to say that there isn't any "female bullshit propaganda" out there too of course
)
khanjar
New member
I understand it must be a few years old at least and that because I had heard the author had since had a sex change and was somewhere in Bulgaria.
So perhaps I know what you might be thinking, it is old information and possibly not the situation as it is now and that perhaps many are reading it and thinking negative things ?
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
This ain't Tango...
I don't like seeing sexuality in dance - my dance or anyone else's. That's just "my thing".
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
Nuts - it would have been a good idea at the time, huh? Its probably about 5 years old now...
Kashmir
New member
I didn't mean sexual in the pant-pant-pout-pout way. Rather the emphasis is moved from playing with the music and to playing with your partner. (I have not seen this shift in same sex duets)
Yame
New member
Maybe, though I don't see it as an either-or scenario or as a bad thing, and I see it in same sex duets too, at least in the ones I actually like. If the person isn't "playing" with their partner, I find it boring.
The way I see it, the best live drum solos are the ones where the dancer is playing with the music and the drummer (and the drummer plays with the dancer), and the best duets (same or opposite gender) are the ones where the dancers play with each other and the music.
But to each their own...
Aniseteph
New member
[QUOTE-Zorba]Nuts - it would have been a good idea at the time, huh? Its probably about 5 years old now...[/QUOTE]
LOL, my webmaster side knows how it is. But I do think it needs a date to reflect that things change.
The UK history thread made me think - where DID we get our perspective on BD in terms of classes? It may well have had a heavy dollop of the belly dance = wimmin's space ethos that some teachers haven't wanted to shake off, maybe because it's so fundamental to their idea of what bellydance is.
IMO it's maybe a little old-fashioned these days. For anyone who is in touch with the (ME-focused) BD scene, we have enough really high profile male dancers that a "no guys" policy is increasingly nonsensical. I've seen male students at workshops and events and it's no big deal.
I do appreciate that some guys have a tough time finding classes and I'm not trying to downplay people's experience, but it'd be a pity if male dancers in the UK expected to meet a wall of hostility and rejection - some of your potential classmates and teachers really don't have that attitude.
LOL, my webmaster side knows how it is. But I do think it needs a date to reflect that things change.
The UK history thread made me think - where DID we get our perspective on BD in terms of classes? It may well have had a heavy dollop of the belly dance = wimmin's space ethos that some teachers haven't wanted to shake off, maybe because it's so fundamental to their idea of what bellydance is.
IMO it's maybe a little old-fashioned these days. For anyone who is in touch with the (ME-focused) BD scene, we have enough really high profile male dancers that a "no guys" policy is increasingly nonsensical. I've seen male students at workshops and events and it's no big deal.
I do appreciate that some guys have a tough time finding classes and I'm not trying to downplay people's experience, but it'd be a pity if male dancers in the UK expected to meet a wall of hostility and rejection - some of your potential classmates and teachers really don't have that attitude.
Yorkshire Lass
New member
Tango is very different from bellydance as well. I love tango. It's my other passion in life and it's all about the sensuality, intimacy and closeness and the feeling of your partner in your arms and the feeling that the world could end and you wouldn't even notice.
Bellydance "feels" different for want of a better word.
The dynamic is completely other in bellydance as is the awareness and interaction with other performers.In bellydance I've performed with others from class and we are aware and interact but it's not the same level of awareness because it's not the same degree of intimacy.
I'm not putting this well but as someone who loves both, they're completely different in how they feell.
Before anyone mentions Belly-Tango fusion, I've seen it on more than one occasion but I've never liked it. The two just don't mesh properly to my way of thinking.
The only male / female bellydance piece I saw and really liked was a lady called Beatrice Parvin who performs in London. She danced at a hafla I attended. Her husband played the violin and she danced for him to his music. He didn't dance but interacted with her. That worked and the chemistry was absolutely beautiful and transformed the dance into something truly special.
Having that preference is fine, but surely it's equally fine to like it?
I like a good Tango
I think I might enjoy seeing a belly dance duet that was "sexy" in a similar way...Having never actually seen anything like it myself I am once again coming from a point of total ignorance. I may have to google Belly - Tango and have a look. It sounds cool to me
I guess it just sounded like you guys were shutting a potential area of belly dance down because of your personal preference, which seems ironically similar to, say, not allowing men to belly dance because some people have a preference against that...
If someone wanted to do it, they should be free to do it. And of course, you would all be free to not like it
But I'm probably just reading far too much into what you're saying for the sake of irony
Sophia Maria
New member
I found this! I love it when I find clips of just random people dancing.
The words "mental prison" have been mentioned a lot here, and I think that's spot-on. So many guys (and this may be cultural because I find this especially with American caucasian guys that I know)...so many guys I know really, really have this entrenched thought that dancing, unless one is dancing sexy with a girl or unless it's REALLY manly aggressive dance, is just plain "gay". I have laughed and tried to explain to them that there is nothing to that belief. In my experience, gender either makes no difference whatsoever, or women are actually much more attracted to a guy who can dance well on his own.
I also get extremely frustrated whenever I hear the words "a dance for women by women". It's said so much here in the U.S. I used to just assume it was true, didn't think much about it at all. Then I saw that guys belly dance and it didn't take much for me to realize that there is NO REASON why men should not dance this dance.
The words "mental prison" have been mentioned a lot here, and I think that's spot-on. So many guys (and this may be cultural because I find this especially with American caucasian guys that I know)...so many guys I know really, really have this entrenched thought that dancing, unless one is dancing sexy with a girl or unless it's REALLY manly aggressive dance, is just plain "gay". I have laughed and tried to explain to them that there is nothing to that belief. In my experience, gender either makes no difference whatsoever, or women are actually much more attracted to a guy who can dance well on his own.
I also get extremely frustrated whenever I hear the words "a dance for women by women". It's said so much here in the U.S. I used to just assume it was true, didn't think much about it at all. Then I saw that guys belly dance and it didn't take much for me to realize that there is NO REASON why men should not dance this dance.
khanjar
New member
The trouble with saying; '' A dance for women by women'', is actually robbing the original culture of it's birth right, I for one am keen to avoid that and admittedly, I do generate negative thought when I hear it said.
But the perceptions many males have about being perceived as less than what they think they are whenever them dancing is brought up, says lots about their security as males. The same with the vociferous homophobes, what are they hiding to be so hateful to people who are causing them no bother.
So perhaps I can say many males are just plain insecure and will do anything to avoid peer pressure as many males are unable to function on their own and so need to be part of a group of other less secure males.
For example, I know one of my male pals dances BD, his partner has taught him a bit, but whenever I suggest he goes out to learn a bit more, it is always; no, no chance,can't do that, what would people think dancing in private is okay though. Which is fine, but I disagree with the notion; what would other people think. Who cares what they think, if they think. I mention, that do it, but I always get back that people around here think I am mad anyway, so I have a excuse. Gee thanks friend.
But the perceptions many males have about being perceived as less than what they think they are whenever them dancing is brought up, says lots about their security as males. The same with the vociferous homophobes, what are they hiding to be so hateful to people who are causing them no bother.
So perhaps I can say many males are just plain insecure and will do anything to avoid peer pressure as many males are unable to function on their own and so need to be part of a group of other less secure males.
For example, I know one of my male pals dances BD, his partner has taught him a bit, but whenever I suggest he goes out to learn a bit more, it is always; no, no chance,can't do that, what would people think dancing in private is okay though. Which is fine, but I disagree with the notion; what would other people think. Who cares what they think, if they think. I mention, that do it, but I always get back that people around here think I am mad anyway, so I have a excuse. Gee thanks friend.
I went to an all boys school where anyone who did any kind of dancing was guaranteed to get the s*** kicked out of him on a regular basis. I played music, did drama and acting and only just managed to get away with that because I was also captain of the rugby team.
But dancing would have been a social death sentence. For just the reason you said. You would be labelled as "gay" and the environment was ridiculously homophobic. Probably a bunch of repressed closet cases ruining it for everyone else.
I ended up protesting to my parents until the eventually agreed to send me to a coed school, but I guess the damage was done because I've never been able to dance. I've tried, at times in the past, but all attempts have gone badly and only served to emphasize and support my belief that dancing = social suicide, at least for me.
And so now I have this irrational fear about dancing. Especially in front of someone else. The mere thought terrifies me. And since my upbringing is probably not entirely dissimilar to a lot of other men, I can only assume that I'm not alone in feeling like this. It's much easier to hide behind the excuse that men shouldn't dance, than it is to face that fear.
khanjar
New member
Then you know what is holding you back from enjoying yourself and learning something new....
So all I can say though I do understand completely given my own background, is free yourself and become human. That is genderless as it should be as a dancer, for gender is only about procreation and little else other.
Yes I know, it is often easier said than done, but ask yourself why ascribe to the mentalities of people who don't matter, let them be locked away in their world of narrow mindedness that is if they haven't already freed themselves, for you never know and it is hardly likely you will see them again anyway given your new location and if you did, what of it, adults are free to make their own choices if they just think for themselves.
Go on give it a go if you are interested, you can always quit, but you won't know unless you try.
So all I can say though I do understand completely given my own background, is free yourself and become human. That is genderless as it should be as a dancer, for gender is only about procreation and little else other.
Yes I know, it is often easier said than done, but ask yourself why ascribe to the mentalities of people who don't matter, let them be locked away in their world of narrow mindedness that is if they haven't already freed themselves, for you never know and it is hardly likely you will see them again anyway given your new location and if you did, what of it, adults are free to make their own choices if they just think for themselves.
Go on give it a go if you are interested, you can always quit, but you won't know unless you try.
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
This is a HUGE debate in our community. I don't like it, myself. It cheapens our dance and confuses it with other dance forms.Having that preference is fine, but surely it's equally fine to like it?
I like a good Tango
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Kashmir
New member
It actually hooks into a number of discussions we have had about what exactly is belly dance. Traditionally it is Solo Improvised with Torso Articulations. Most people are happy to include group dances which are choreographed in the style. That is, with the movement vocabulary and musicality associated with its countries of origin. Another test is would a person from, say, Egypt recognize the dance as belly dance, or raqs sharqi or raqs beledi?
When you get into a steamy pas de deux where the sexual tension overpowers the music then, no, it ceases to be belly dance (that is not to say you cannot have a mixed sex duet doing belly dance just the particular one in my head doesn't deserve the name). This isn't a question of preference but definition.
Sophia Maria
New member
Yeah I agree. To my mind, the character of BD is really really different from tango. I love duets and think they should happen more often, but...it's different. For me, BD, especially Egyptian, seems to have this witty humor and very, very subtle flirtation (in general, not just specifically meaning romantic/sexual flirtation) that makes it distinct from other dances like tango.
L42yB said:
Yep, I know a lot of guys that refuse to dance--absolutely refuse. But I know a lot of people like that, too, and not just guys. For instance, I have one friend that is extremely self-conscious about her dancing, and a lot of it, I think, is due to the fact that she got discouraged early and then never started. Trust me when I say, it's NEVER too late to get up and dance. And if you're worried about what others will think, unfortunately there's no way to go around that--you have to push through it with your chin up. I mean, everyone has to go through some of this--how many times have I been leered at when I say I'm bellydancer, or had to listen to people just talking about my butt or my abs...? There's no point in hiding, or in yelling at them.
If you know what you want to do, then that's all you need. You don't need other people to approve.
khanjar
New member
You did better than me then, drama, no chance, I used to hide and music though at the time I could get it, as soon as teachers wanted to push it further, I backed off.
It was the same in my school anything remotely effeminate, the performing arts was just plain gay, but of those that attacked what were they, if anything other than the product of their parents, even now I wonder what their home life was like outside of school.
Dancing in front of someone else, I get that and although I am reckoned to be better than what I reckon, no way, not yet can I dance in front of others, but I recognise that feat as what drives me to become better and one day I will cross the threshold and do what I have always feared and with that even now I suspect the thought will be why did I not do it sooner, but fear is fear, irrational yes it is in this case, but the past does dig deep holes. I know, so you are not alone.
Duvet
Member
It's probably nearer seven years. The Bristol Day of Dance mentioned was in 2005. Is there any chance, Zorba, that you could add something to the bottom or top of her article explaining that MAJMA does now quite happily accept men into workshops? In fact I don't know of any UK festival that doesn't (unless someone knows better).
Kharis website also no longer carries a 'Dance Classes for Men' link (and quite right too; it should be taken for granted that men can go). Unfortunately this also means visitors to the website are now denied the pleasure of viewing a great example.
Having read Helen's (fka Mike) article I'm pleased to say things have certainly changed in the UK. While you still get some dancers and teachers with those attitudes that Helen talks about (and I can fully appreciate how a rejection feels based solely on gender grounds), and there is a fair amount of general public misconception which can fuel some really dumb comments, the bellydance community as a whole accepts men far more readily than it used to. I'm not saying that people don't have those views in private, and I occasionally do find a class or workshop with an initial 'no men allowed' attitude, (which 9 times out of 10 is gone after a brief conversation), but I believe people realise that they no longer have the right to ban men from 'public' events anymore.