Men have unfair advantage in bellydance?

[Duvet]

Has anyone else come across this idea?

I’ve been told that some female dancers don’t like following a male act because it’s harder to work the audience as she is seen as a bit of an anti-climax. Is that true? I’ve also been told that men don’t have to try – they just have to get up on stage, and they’ll get a good reaction. Is this a common perception? I view this as insulting, considering the hard work, practise, time and money that we all put into dancing, but it made me think.

So does a man, by the very fact of being a man, get a better reaction from the audience than a woman would, even if she put more time and effort into her performance? I am not suggesting that the male dancer doesn’t also put in the time and effort, nor has the skill, but I’m asking if, in general, there is a feeling that a man gets more back from the audience for what he does.

I personally feel that a good performer is a good performer –period. A bad performance looks bad – period. However, could it be that as most bums-on-seats at bellydance events tend to be female, a male dancer gets a different reaction, not about his ability, but just that there’s a man up there that women will watch, judge and pass comment on in a way they don’t do to another woman? He may also receive the ‘surprise’ reaction (hey, there’s a bloke and he’s not that bad), or the ‘encouragement’ factor (hey, there’s a bloke, isn’t he brave), as well as the ‘titillation’ factor. Of course, he may also be a very fine dancer and deserve the response he gets.

Does it depend on the type of audience you are performing before? Or is there nothing in it?

 

[Jane]

I think you're on to something. It happens in any occupation or activity that traditionally has a strong gender disparity.

Dancers should be judged on their dancing and presentation, not on gender. I've seen enough men belly dancing that I got over the novelty aspect years ago.

Women who drool over male dancers, only because they are male, make themselves look silly.

I don't think they have an advantage as far as being taken seriously. I think they are at a disadvantage there, especially with the general public.

 

[khanjar]

What I have perceived so far, is male dancer equals novelty value,( do I want to be no more than a novelty, I have wrestled with this notion and nearly gave up), have a male dancer and a troupe might have an edge and for gawd's sake don't exclude the male. Sad, but perhaps it is like a female football player or other activity once dominated by males and now open to both genders, the pioneers are still too few and old status quo is dying too slowly in the more egalitarian parts of the world.

 

[Aniseteph]

Most of the times I've seen male dancers it's been the likes of Khaled or Ozgen or Tito or JimBoz; great performances that it would be tough for anyone to follow.

I have also seen dancers make a huge fuss of a guy who was no more talented than any number of female dancers, but oh wow isn't he BRAVE to be a man belly dancing, and he's doing so WELL... It's great to be encouraging and supportive, but I've never seen the same flapdoodle about a female dancer. It doesn't do anyone any good IMO.

It's offensive to do the wolfwhistly bit about a male dancer just 'cos he's a he (same as for a she, now I think of it). However if he is dancing well AND flirting his ass off at the audience I reserve the right to appreciate it. Names have been removed to protect the guilty. :redface:

 

[Yame]

It depends on the audience of course, but I've found that in my experience , yes, men get a better response for the simple fact that they are men (to be clear, I am talking about the belly dance community here, not the general public). Usually because our dancer audiences are usually composed of women, and well, most of these women are attracted to men. But more importantly because most belly dancers are women, so having a man is often a novelty.

Now, don't get me wrong. Many male belly dancers are talented and deserve the respect and attention. With that said, many of these talented male belly dancers get more attention than their equally talented female counterparts. And of course, there are also male belly dancers who are awful, but who are encouraged and cheered on because they are men.

It's to be expected. It's kind of unfair to both genders in different ways. It's unfair to men that people seem to have such low expectations of them that they will cheer anything on, when men are perfectly capable of being amazing belly dancers. It's also unfair to women who work hard and are very skilled, but get less attention because there are so many of us...

But fair on unfair, it's just what happens, for now. As a woman, I've been involved in some male-dominated activities and got special treatment for being a woman. I didn't ask for it, but I can't spin or deny the fact that I WAS treated much more kindly than my male peers. Some people may have resented that, but as far as I know people didn't care either way. Most people didn't care in my case simply because I WAS very skilled, but as far as less-skilled women getting ahead of more skilled men just for being women, yes, that pissed a lot of people off. So I did my best to make sure I earned everything I got.

I think men in belly dance should have the same attitude. Regardless of how people actually view you, do your best to do well and to earn respect even if you don't necessarily need to try very hard or be very good to get that respect. Have high standards for yourself regardless of what people expect of you. Don't expect less of yourself because some people seem to expect less of you for being a man.

 

[Darshiva]

Has anyone else come across this idea?

I’ve been told that some female dancers don’t like following a male act because it’s harder to work the audience as she is seen as a bit of an anti-climax. Is that true? I’ve also been told that men don’t have to try – they just have to get up on stage, and they’ll get a good reaction. Is this a common perception? I view this as insulting, considering the hard work, practise, time and money that we all put into dancing, but it made me think.

So does a man, by the very fact of being a man, get a better reaction from the audience than a woman would, even if she put more time and effort into her performance? I am not suggesting that the male dancer doesn’t also put in the time and effort, nor has the skill, but I’m asking if, in general, there is a feeling that a man gets more back from the audience for what he does.

Does it depend on the type of audience you are performing before? Or is there nothing in it?

I've gone on after a man at a huge fundraiser & in my (somewhat limited) experience, I can say, nope, every dancer brings their own novelty and if they don't, they probably aren't quite ready for stage yet. I had no trouble going on after a guy. In fact the only negative feedback I got about my performance was that it was too long (which was my fault, I sent the organiser the wrong version of the song and had to dance for an additional 4 minutes that I hadn't practiced to - the things that try us as dancers!!!). It was certainly more nerve-wracking (for me) to be following a big name dancer as a fill-in for another big-name dancer who'd cancelled at the last minute. (different gig)

So I'd say that if you're worried about going on after a guy, don't. You will succeed or fail on your own merits and that would happen anyway, regardless of who you went on after!

 

[Lara]

It's a double edged sword. There is the novelty aspect, and the dance community does have a tendency to want to particularly encourage male dancers, on the other hand the GP part of audiences is sometimes really taken aback & doesn't always know what to think. Even in a more dance friendly audience, I've seen a good male dancer deal with way more cr** from women in the audience than we'd ever let men get away with when a woman is performing. Novelty is good for an initial reaction, maybe even a cheer or 2, but after that, *everyone* has to stand on their own 2 dance legs- being a man doesn't make up for bad dancing any more than having the most amazing (or startling) costume would. Now, amoung dancers of a comparable competence level, I have to admit I really like watching they guys for the most part, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying the performance of the woman who comes on after him.

 

[shiradotnet]

Here's something written by a male belly dancer that offers some useful food for thought on this topic:

The Odyssey Of The Lizard Boy, by Valizan

 

[khanjar]

He got it right from what I understand so far, male dancers are seen as a novelty.

Even it was in my new class the first day I was approached by an elder dancer after the lesson and congratulated on how brave I was to come to the class, my answer was, why not, for I have been doing this for three years, is there a problem ? Of course I know the answer to that, but I am doing this for me so far and no other. I also added perhaps in defence that my interest in belly dance was also to alleviate back problems after a thrice slipped disc, nothing so far, be that meds, chiropractor Pilates or yoga had ever given me the relief I have now through regular belly dance practice. I realised that defence was wrong, I should have stood my ground, but one gets this way when others question as it is still rare in my town to find a male belly dancer, although I am assured my new teacher has said from time to time there has been males, like in my old class where at one time there were three of us that dwindled to just me.

Yeah so it may be a novelty, but it is up to the majority to change that, you want us included, treat us just like any other, our skill or lack there of should be our status as a belly dancer, not our physique or the difference between our legs. But perhaps with some they don't want us here and harping on novelty will drive many away, as I for one wish to be judged as a human with skill, not what I did not have any say in.

 

[Aniseteph]

ITA defence IS wrong, you don't need a defence any more than anyone else does.

Don't think in terms of standing your ground. Chances are she was just trying to be friendly and welcoming and supportive and using the obvious conversation opener, not having a problem with your being there and challenging you about what you were doing in a belly dance class. Maybe she is the nice friendly type who will also talk to new lone female students. People are mostly nice. And if they aren't, who gives a rat's behind unless they are in a position where they get to affect you?

The male students dropping is not necessarily significant - I'd say the majority of female beginners drop out sooner or later too. It's not for everyone.

 

[Zorba]

I haven't seen or heard of anyone finding a male dancer hard to follow on stage - it'd be pretty much the same as following a female dancer "was s/he so incredible that s/he's a hard act to follow?". We've all experienced the latter.

But I certainly have seen, and experienced for myself, the "novelty factor" others in this thread have alluded to. Its not right, its not fair to the gals, but it is often there. Not quite so much as it was 10 years ago when I was a baby dancer, but still...

 

[khanjar]

ITA defence IS wrong, you don't need a defence any more than anyone else does.

Don't think in terms of standing your ground. Chances are she was just trying to be friendly and welcoming and supportive and using the obvious conversation opener, not having a problem with your being there and challenging you about what you were doing in a belly dance class. Maybe she is the nice friendly type who will also talk to new lone female students. People are mostly nice. And if they aren't, who gives a rat's behind unless they are in a position where they get to affect you?

The male students dropping is not necessarily significant - I'd say the majority of female beginners drop out sooner or later too. It's not for everyone.

Yes, I know she was being nice and supportive, but perhaps I was a little 'off', at first, because of the amount of crap I have had in the past, I kind of expect negativity and yes there is not any significance with males dropping classes, it just looks worse because of the numbers involved.

But the dancer mentioned I later warmed to, because as a back specialist it never occurred to her that belly dance is a good control for back pain.

 

[Aniseteph]

Even if someone IS trying to be negative or nasty or confrontational there is mileage in wilfully taking it the good way. First because there's no reason why you should let their attitudes affect your life and bring you down, second because it takes the wind out of their sails and might really piss them off.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Within the dance community I think men get a strong reaction becase it is acknowledged that they are few and far between and so the audience trys to be supportive. I seriously doubt that a good female dancer will have a hard time following a not so good male dancer.

My experience I have always gotten good reactions from my audiences, but that was because I made sure that I had reached a certain level of proficiency before I began doing solos. I was my own worse critic.

Dancing in the real world I've found that I most female dancers have a far easier time than i do. Its been my experience that dancers who were far beneath my abilities receive better tips and more importantly job opportunities.

Every time I go onstage I have to prove myself. Just recently I had the experience of being let go from one of the clubs I danced in. I was told they couldn't afford the expence. Imagine my surprise when I walked by on my way to my regular to see a dancer going into my old establishment. A dancer I know, who has absolutely no training at all, but she is good looking....

So when it comes down to where it really counts, male dancers do not have an advantage. Where as many dancers can get by on their looks, we can't. I can't go out and just be cute, I've got to work very hard otherwise I'll loose the audience. I've been in my regular gig since 2003. The reason I've lasted this long is because I never just danced, I went beyond what was expected to make contact with the audience, draw them out, engage them, where as the female dancers didn't give much beyond a smile. I've been very successful and yet, despite the fact that I am a proven entertainer, I still have a hard time getting hired in most clubs in the city.

So yes, in one context, male dancers get attention and applause, but where it really counts, those who have gained recognition and respect as artists have earned it on the merit of genuine talent.

 

[Aniseteph]

Dance community vs. professional world is a very important distinction; what is important to the individual depends on where you are, and where you plan to be.

In the commercial world surely everyone, male or female, is at risk of being given the push for someone who is more commercially attractive (age, weight, hair/skin colour, bust size, etc etc as well as gender). And/or cheaper. Wouldn't it be great if audiences were interested in more than eye candy?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Dance community vs. professional world is a very important distinction; what is important to the individual depends on where you are, and where you plan to be.

In the commercial world surely everyone, male or female, is at risk of being given the push for someone who is more commercially attractive (age, weight, hair/skin colour, bust size, etc etc as well as gender). And/or cheaper. Wouldn't it be great if audiences were interested in more than eye candy?

Which is why I strongly believe that dancers should begin creating our own venues. If we created venues where we were in charge of presenting high quality dancer the public who comes to see it would know what they are seeing and those who only wanted eye candy would go elsewhere. I do believe that if you have something of quality, you will find people who appreciate it.

 

[Duvet]

It’s real nice to be getting lots of attention and encouragement, but then you feel, this isn’t right; ‘that dancer is far more talented than me/has worked really hard to do this, and she’s not getting this reaction’. And it makes it kind of tough to judge your own progress if people are always reacting to you based on your novelty factor rather than your ability. It does the ego a ton of good, but not the ego’s reality check.

There is also the danger of being used as a prop, and I have turned down duet offers because I felt she didn’t want a man who could dance, she just wanted a man to posture with, and a cardboard cut-out would have worked just as well. It sounds like I’m moaning, and I guess I am, and I might end up shooting myself in the foot if the reality sucks, but I want to know how good my ability is, and not be fooled by a lot of empty thrill factor. This is when you need those really good friends who’ll tell you straight – no hold bars, no being nice.

Khanjar- I’ve received the “You’re so brave” line so many times I almost don’t notice it, but take it as a normal comment. It usually comes from women in a class/workshop, or from men after a performance. It is an odd line, as I feel it means, by the implication of comparison, that the speaker views themselves as a coward. Women get this comment as well, and I think (or imagine) there are different reasons for it;

1. They really do think you’re brave to do something they don’t have the courage to do
2. They are trying to be nice about your lack of ability
3. They think you shouldn’t be dancing (for whatever reason)
4. They think you have some underlying problem for which belly-dancing is therapy
5. They are acknowledging how difficult it can be to step beyond stereotypes
6. They feel a compliment or encouragement is necessary, but don’t know what else to say
7. They’re being friendly
8. They want something from you

The whole “men in bellydance” issue is pretty odd though. I find that as a student, men still need to tread carefully and not appear threatening or offensive, but once they start performing they’re not only welcomed with open arms, but also get treated in exactly the way they wouldn’t be allowed to behave in themselves. What gives?? Double standards I feel. As someone told me years ago – some are fine having a male follow-the-bum teacher, but wouldn’t let a man in the class as a student.

 

[Amulya]

Good topic!

I find it interesting to see that when a new male dancer pops up in the community that sometimes dance troups/schools are just way too keen to scoop him up and claim him.

And I always noticed how men get more applause and attention. I can imagine for new dancers that it can be a bit overwhelming.

 

[~Diana~]

The area I live in this is far from the case. There are no male bellydancers here at all (from my knowledge) and if there were the community is so new to bellydance itself that a male bellydance would really freak some people out. They just would not understand and I'm sure that it be extremely hard for him to be accepted and taken seriously by some, if not most, of the general public.

I hear that our performance coming up one group is going to have two males in it but I'm not sure if they are actually dancing. It will be very interesting to see how the audience and other dancers take this.

 

[BigJim]

I had the opportunity to dance in the opening number of one of my favorite instructors annual show. It started with one dancer on stage, the instructor joining her for some combination veil work and at about the 4 minute mark I came on, danced with them for a bit and finished up with a short drum solo.

After the show was over an older lady approached me and said "I was really mad at you when you came on because I thought you were the stagehand and that you were ruining the 2 lovely dancers routine"

She went on to say that it was O.K. once she realized I was part of the show.

I thought it was very funny but goes to show that men do get a different reaction at times