Men have unfair advantage in bellydance?

[Amulya]

That's rude, even when it was a bit funny to you. She must have been surpriced that you could dance

 

[Zorba]

"I was really mad at you when you came on because I thought you were the stagehand and that you were ruining the 2 lovely dancers routine"

She went on to say that it was O.K. once she realized I was part of the show.

I thought it was very funny but goes to show that men do get a different reaction at times

Snort!

I had a dance sister who is also a troupe mate of mine tell me that she has seen the same reactions time and time again from audience members when I come on stage:

1) Shock and disbelief.
2) "This has GOT to be a joke!"
3) Uh, he's serious about this.
4) Uh, he's pretty good!

and sometimes from the gals:

5) MAD! If a *GUY* (of all things) can do this, I can too!

This is why this particular dance sister *is* a dance sister. She saw me at a show years ago - attending because she was toying with the idea of giving it a try - and this was her reaction!

This all underlines what Tarik says about male dancers: We have to prove ourselves EACH and EVERY time we set foot on stage!

 

[Erik]

This all underlines what Tarik says about male dancers: We have to prove ourselves EACH and EVERY time we set foot on stage!

Thought about ranting in a PM to someone but decided to post. It may open a can of worms, but if so 448 posts is as good a place to quit as any.

The following is from Erikosaurus Obsoletis. You can see him in the museum with the rest of the fossils. He believes concepts like faith (without theocracy) still have a place in the Third Millenium. Another of the archaic words he uses is honor.

To this creature's bizarre way of thinking, there are honors that you win only once, hang them on your wall in a frame, and after that the only way to relive them is to remember. And then there are honors which repeat themselves. I can only imagine, but I always thought being a male dancer would make one feel special, like Spec Ops is special. The few.....the proud.....THE MEN OF BELLYDANCE. And if it were me, it's the kind of special that I wouldn't trade for ordinary.

If I could back up the clock twenty years I might be learning how to dance. If I could back up the clock thirty years I think I definitely would, and not just for fun. To Erikosaurus, the fun is in the achievement.

For a woman who succeeds in a male-dominated field I should think the chance to prove herself again and again would also be an honor, but this is from the perspective of an outsider looking in. After proving oneself for the 4,985th time it might indeed become tiresome.

 

[Zorba]

Well, in other news I was just shown the door in my Tribal class. I'll give the teacher this: she tried. Unfortunately, the she inherited the class from a long-time "women only" instructor, and the class wanted to go back to that.

I'm bummed - this is the first time this has happened to me - it wouldn't be so bad except that this is the *ONLY* ATS class in these parts, although there *is* a Tribal fusion class that I've been a part of for awhile. And I continue with my cabaret and folkloric classes as well.

 

[khanjar]

I am very sorry to her that Zorba, and to think I thought tradd was harder than ATS, the latter myself discerning from the tuition I received ATS was a sloppier version of trad, that is the movement is more relaxed.

But going back to the original question; '' Men have an unfair advantage in belly dance'', to that I have to disagree, because there are a many a teacher who will take on a male wannabee, because it is in this day and age politically correct to do so and ; '' hey look at me, am going against the grain, maybe I'm the one', another Morocco'', only to find later when things go wrong one must have listened closer to what the past taught. For I have found another way discrimination can work undetected and that is welcome all on websites, but on approach be told only one gender classes are currently being run.

 

[Erik]

Zorba, when I first got on the Internet eight years ago and began reading about BD I detected a strong "female empowerment" with Tribal. It made me wonder if I was some kind of Peeping Tom even to look at them. This attitude seems to have relaxed in recent years, but evidently there are some holdouts.

Sorry for your reverse, and I can understand why it has you down, but I know that you're not the kind to let it overcome you.

EDIT --- Let us be clear. Nothing against female empowerment, but like any good thing it has the potential to be carried to excess.

 

[khanjar]

Yeah something that is becoming a problem as I see it, this empowerment issue, and to what ends, as superiority is not the way forward, no point replacing what was with something else, because in time that will also be replaced and between the genders, what's the point ? Sure there is a point, there is always a point to those with agenda, but analyse the agenda and one will always find unsound minds and we let those minds govern society, are we mad, sure we must be. The challenge of humanity is to unite both genders as one, not one above the other and one below the other as if one half of humanity is a different species to be controlled.

 

[Zorba]

Zorba, when I first got on the Internet eight years ago and began reading about BD I detected a strong "female empowerment" with Tribal. It made me wonder if I was some kind of Peeping Tom even to look at them. This attitude seems to have relaxed in recent years, but evidently there are some holdouts.

Sorry for your reverse, and I can understand why it has you down, but I know that you're not the kind to let it overcome you.

Oh, its definitely there - but as my "home troupe" figured out, They can be, and ARE, all about "female empowerment" and my presence changes nothing at all. Granted, the troupe director told me that its highly unlikely that there'll ever be a second male as I'm weird and fit in in a way most guys couldn't - but whatever! I guess it just didn't work for this particular Tribal group.

The best revenge is to be successful despite their rejection - they'll see me dancing Tribal with either another troupe - or my own troupe which has already done some Tribal (more choreographed ITS to date, but we're working on ATS). HA! Put that in your coin belt and smoke it...:lol:

 

[khanjar]

I don't know about you, but with me, wrongs perceived cause revenge and revenge I have found to be a motivator to excel. Perhaps obsessive at times, but isn't obsession another variation of passion ?

 

[chirel]

5. They are acknowledging how difficult it can be to step beyond stereotypes

I'd go with number five as for many people bellydance is feminine and sadly for many men aren't supposed to show an interest in feminine things. Therefore men and bellydance don't mix naturally in many people's minds. Many years ago when I attended belly dance classes regularly there was one guy, and at first i was surprised by it. Thinking how could a man shimmy his hips or chest? What about chest lifts, there's nothing to lift? Silly thoughts, really. But as the class continued I realised that he was no different from the rest of us. We were all pretty much beginners and most of us weren't anywere near to shimmying anything since we were so stiff.

Hmm. Another thought. Saying your brave for belly dancing might also mean that you are brave to challenge the gender stereotypes AND face the repeated reactions of people telling you how brave you are


Edit. Wanted to add, that the first phrase is me trying to imagine what people in genearl might think instead of saying what I think. I love it when people step over the gender boundaries, and I wish men would have more chances to show their interst in anything that is considered feminine and that women would have a chance to show interest for things considered masculine (and I think women have more freedom in this than men, at least in Finland still).

 

[Erik]

I'd go with number five as for many people bellydance is feminine and sadly for many men aren't supposed to show an interest in feminine things.

That's exactly what held me back for many years. The term bellydance or some permutation of it would come up in a conversation, and I would look down at the floor in shame. No more of that. Yes, it is feminine, and I don't give a rat's rump anymore about who knows that I am interested.

On Tribe.net I am a member of twelve tribes; three of them bellydance-related. I keep waiting for someone I have argued with on the other nine tribes to try and needle me about it, and I'm completely ready to respond, but as yet no one has undertaken that challenge.

 

[Darshiva]

If I could back up the clock twenty years I might be learning how to dance. If I could back up the clock thirty years I think I definitely would, and not just for fun. To Erikosaurus, the fun is in the achievement.

For a woman who succeeds in a male-dominated field I should think the chance to prove herself again and again would also be an honor, but this is from the perspective of an outsider looking in. After proving oneself for the 4,985th time it might indeed become tiresome.

Erik, I say this with the most love I can muster, please go find yourself a nice class to join. It is NEVER too late to start dancing, but the longer you leave it, the more you'll regret it once you do start dancing.

Find someone who will take you in & instruct you. Point them our way when they are leery - I am sure that any number of our membership will willingly act as character reference for you.

Your passion for this dance is evident and you should definitely not let age, gender or perceived clumsiness hold you back. Just do it. You'll be glad you did.

 

[Erik]

Thanks, Darshiva. Shira and Shanazel have also suggested that I take classes, but not as forcefully as you.

There are other factors involved, the first of which is economics. My tires and boots are worn but I cannot as yet afford to replace them. I have no spare tire. I am saving for four new tires for the vehicle and two new boots for me. Hoping to have them by winter. Anyone who thinks all Americans live like kings could get a reality check from me. Once I did, but no more.

I live in the country country. [When you hear those dueling banjos you know you are getting close, but there are places even more rural. Without a good reason for being on their land you could find yourself shot.] These people don't even know what it is. I doubt there are any bellydance classes within a 50-mile radius.

I'm pushing fifty now. The outside is very well-preserved, but I'm having hip pain lately. Some people need hip replacement in their fifties and I fear I will be one of them.

In the last eight years I have developed a great respect for this dance. I could tell you how it all began, but it would take too long. Maybe on another thread. Anyway, I'm the all-or-nothing type. If I can't give it my all, I prefer to give it nothing. The years to become proficient aren't there anymore, and there are other things I am determined to do with the years I have left.

Nevertheless, your words have great effect on me, and I will keep them in mind. I'm playing the lottery, and if I ever win I may not be able to outspend Miles Copeland and produce THE GREATEST BELLYDANCE EXTRAVAGANZA THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN, but I can afford classes. Just hoping in my present condition that when my hip drops it comes back up again.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

Darshiva, you have eloquently said what I was going to say to Erik, thank you so much.

Erik, I was 46 when I was finally able to find a local teacher. Please, please don't let your age hold you back! I'm 51 now, and am so glad I took that first bellydance lesson.

Thanks to all of the wonderful people here on this forum, I have recently decided to make it a goal to become a teacher, myself. I'm not ready yet, not by a longshot, but I'm going to work hard to get there.

The one thing I want to make abundantly clear to my future students is that bellydance is a cultural art, and that bellydance is for EVERYONE. I want to teach men, women, and children, and approach bellydance as a family activity, and a wonderful cultural study (I don't see how anyone can study bellydance and try to divorce it from the countries and peoples from which bellydance comes from). Not only do I want to teach future students the dance, but also the people and their way of life. This is going to require a lot of dedication and study, I know. Although I've never been to the Middle East, I've always, always loved that part of the world, from the time I was a little kid.

I realize that there are going to be problems teaching all ages and genders, and that it will be a great responsibility to protect my future students from perverted people who might try to join my class, and from those of little understanding who would down my precious students for studying bellydance. I don't want my future students to be treated as some sort of novelty or anything else outlandish. I've got my work cut out for me, but I love bellydance so much, and want to share that love with all who want to learn.

 

[Erik]

Thanks, Farasha.

I consider myself primarily a historian......but if I could just learn enough to teach a novice dancer how to do one move correctly, it would be a life well spent. We'll see how it goes.

 

[khanjar]

I'd go with number five as for many people bellydance is feminine and sadly for many men aren't supposed to show an interest in feminine things. Therefore men and bellydance don't mix naturally in many people's minds. Many years ago when I attended belly dance classes regularly there was one guy, and at first i was surprised by it. Thinking how could a man shimmy his hips or chest? What about chest lifts, there's nothing to lift? Silly thoughts, really. But as the class continued I realised that he was no different from the rest of us. We were all pretty much beginners and most of us weren't anywere near to shimmying anything since we were so stiff.

Ever heard the saying; sex is between the legs, gender is between the ears ?

But what of gender, medical science says there are only two, yet ,more and more scientists are beginning to recognise what is needed for procreation is not the entirety of it, as life is more than just procreation. Perhaps it is there are people who are designed to further the population and others that aren't, and perhaps even outmoded types that nature has decided needs to drop out of the gene pool.

Yes, my current research is revealing there are many types of human being, male and female is not that clear cut anymore and who knows what any of us here actually are, beyond what procreation has equipped us for.

Hmm. Another thought. Saying your brave for belly dancing might also mean that you are brave to challenge the gender stereotypes AND face the repeated reactions of people telling you how brave you are

There is a problem in that, say those that do challenge the boundaries are in fact the gender differences, that could upset the standard form, because those that are different are likely to cross boundaries to do what it is they want to do, but that does not apply to all.

Edit. Wanted to add, that the first phrase is me trying to imagine what people in genearl might think instead of saying what I think. I love it when people step over the gender boundaries, and I wish men would have more chances to show their interst in anything that is considered feminine and that women would have a chance to show interest for things considered masculine (and I think women have more freedom in this than men, at least in Finland still).

To this I would have to agree and do think it is a Western thing in general, as just to indicate on the simplest level, what can women wear as attire and not be questioned, compared to men, except Zorba of course, but he is braver than many.

 

[Zorba]

...except Zorba of course, but he is braver than many.

Oh PLEASE! I'm not brave, I just don't shive a git...

Erik - You are exactly the same age as I am. Perhaps it will help if I tell you that one dancer I know celebrated her 88th birthday by dancing her very first solo...

 

[khanjar]

Yes Erik, I'm 44 this year and I am a still a clueless beginner with no aspirations other than at least once dance at a hafla, i.e. still private, but not on one's tod private.

After and if I get past that hurdle, after, who knows.

 

[Duvet]

Well, in other news I was just shown the door in my Tribal class. I'll give the teacher this: she tried. Unfortunately, the she inherited the class from a long-time "women only" instructor, and the class wanted to go back to that.

I'm really sorry to hear this. From your posts you sounded really happy with them, and felt valued as a member, just as you valued them. I hope you can stay amicable with them, and, while I hope they feel they are doing the right thing, maybe one day they'll realise how blinkered they are being.

I don't for a minute believe you'll give up..

 

[Duvet]

there are a many a teacher who will take on a male wannabee, because it is in this day and age politically correct to do so and ; '' hey look at me, am going against the grain, maybe I'm the one', another Morocco'',

I don't think any of my regular teachers have given a thought to Morocco when I turned up at class (and I'm sure at least one of them wouldn't know who she was). And none of them have "taken me on", they've taught me as a student and made no fuss about it. (For which I've been lucky and thankful).

only to find later when things go wrong one must have listened closer to what the past taught.

Is this the teacher or the student? What went wrong? What past?

For I have found another way discrimination can work undetected and that is welcome all on websites, but on approach be
told only one gender classes are currently being run.

Then this needs to be politely pointed out. Who a teacher chooses to have in her/his class is down to their own comfort zone and ability, but if they are advertizing one thing but providing something else, then they are misrepresenting themselves, and should be told so (again politely, but firmly).