Movement vs. essence in western dance

[sedoniaraqs]

We have had numerous conversations here about what defines "belly dance". I know that certain other dance genres, such as flamenco, hip hop, and hula have similar points of discussion among their dancers.

What I want to know is, do mainstream western dance genres have an "essence" that defines them in addition to movement vocabularies, musicality, costumes, etc that also define them.

I'm talking mostly about ballet, modern, jazz. I will admit to a fair degree of ignorance and bias when it comes to these dances. While I can admire the technical skill required to perform these, I have to admit I generally don't *feel* anything coming from the dancers of these genres, in terms of emotional or energy connection, essence, or spirit. Whereas I have felt such from oriental dancers (of course), flamenco dancers, hip hop dancers, Indian dancers, etc. Dancers of genres outside of mainstream western.

Does one see, for example, dancers who use ballet movements (executed with technical skill), appropriate music and costumes, etc. but the whole thing doesn't quite add up to "ballet" because there is some missing feeling or essence? And i'm not talking about merely "bad' ballet, but a shell of ballet -- the movements are all there but the parts don't add up to the whole that is supposed to be there, because there is a missing cultural context, subtle nuances in the dance pattern, or feeling that the dancer is supposed to have but doesn't. Or, is the absence of these things one of the characteristics that define the dance?

I'm asking because sometimes I think these concepts are in fact missing from mainstream western dance. Perhaps it is a widespread cultural phenomenon, and is why it is difficult or even impossible for some of us to understand the concept of an ethnic dance like raqs sharqi having an essence or spirit.

And for clarity, let me tell you what has prompted my inquiry. One of the most prestigious dance studios in my small town for youth and adult ballet, modern, tap, jazz, and hip hop, recently added a belly dance class taught by someone with over 17 yrs of western dance training but only 10 weeks of beginner level belly dance training. This is not your typical 10-week wonder who goes out and sets herself up at the YMCA or out of her basement to teach belly dance. Its a respectable studio with standards. I cannot comprehend how the owner of the studio, a long time well-respected dancer in my community, made this decision, except that she must be completely unaware of everything that goes into oriental dance. Is this just old fashioned ethnocentricity (my dance is complex; yours isn't), or a more generalized cultural phenomenon (all dance is just movement; they can't see it any other way)?

I look forward to hearing a variety of opinions.

Sedonia

 

[Kharmine]

IMHO, there are two things a dancer in any genre needs -- the ability to bring across some emotion (joy, passion, sadness, etc.) in a technically competent performance, and a knowledge of the culture of the dance.

I've seen flat, automatic performances in every thing from hula to ballroom dance, and I think it's more likely to happen when the dancers and musicians have little input -- someone else has choreographed the number and written the music and the performers have to do it exactly the same way every time.

Put 'em in front of an audience that is doesn't know much about the dance, or the dancer, and there ain't gonna be much soul.

Contrast that with any dance in which there is at least some improvisation, live music by musicians who can add their own interpretations, and a sympathetic and interested audience, and you got quite a different feel.

Then there's the culture thing -- ballet, jazz, even ballroom have histories, pioneers, innovators, traditions, passion but if the dancers aren't aware and appreciative of those things there's gonna be nothin' but technique in their presentation.

 

[teela]

I think in any dance, if a person if filled with emotion, it will be conveyed even if the technique is not quite as good and we all love watching people who enjoy themselves. That said, I'm surprised that the dance studio in your town is offerening a type of dance with an instructor who has only had 10 weeks. You would not hire a teacher who has only had 10 weeks of anything to teach a class because they would be considered totally incompetant even if they are competant in another form of dance. I beleive that is totally wrong.

 

[Shanazel]

... This is not your typical 10-week wonder who goes out and sets herself up at the YMCA or out of her basement to teach belly dance. Its a respectable studio with standards. Sedonia

I don't care how many years of western dance training she has: if she is settng herself up as a belly dance instructor after only 10 weeks, she is EXACTLY a ten week wonder, and her studio took a dive in standards when she chose to teach a dance form she knows little or nothing about.

 

[Mariyam]

Which brings us back to the typical "I've danced modern/jazz/ballet/ballroom [make your pick] for x years, I can certainly master bellydancing in 10 weeks" approach that is put forward by many (pro)dancers, unfortunately...

As Kharmine (and everybody else!) said, a good performance isn't only about the movement, it's about the emotion, the cultural references. I'm not interested in seeing a dancer who can execute a movement or a choreography with clockwork precision if she cannot express any passion in her dancing! This makes her performance completely sterile and I'm not interested in that... :naghty:

 

[Moon]

I think, when someone has good technique, appropriate music and appropriate costume, knows the culture etc. the person is doing that particular dance, but in order to be very good in that particular dance, there must also be emotion and essence. And that's something you won't learn in 10 weeks, you need experience for that and you need to watch very good dancers.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Excellent topic Sedonia! I would agree with your premise that dance forms such as ballet, jazz, modern often lack certain connectedness to the music, emotion and the audience. IMO, there are several easons for this. These particular dance forms are strictly perfomance level. Dancers train most of their lives with ungodly training regimens when only a few will make it on stage. When you think about how many people launch into a pirouette when thay are just dancing for fun? No one.(maybe Rico). These styles of dances aren't connected to the ordinary person. On the other hand, Raks Baladi, Hip Hop, Salsa, Flamenco, Reggaeton, Krumping etc are dance forms that are still performed by the ordinary common person as well as presented on stage. When on stage there is a great deal of audience participation in terms of vocal encouragement and clapping along with the music and dancer. Which dancer wouldn't have energy and emotional response?

This may be why moat dancers who have dance background in other dance forms find Oriental Dance so liberating in terms of 'letting go' emotionally. As far as the '10 week wonder', she may be teaching just what she learned in 10 weeks and adding other dance forms as well. Hence the true beauty of the dance will be lost. Too bad.
Yasmine

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

What I want to know is, do mainstream western dance genres have an "essence" that defines them in addition to movement vocabularies, musicality, costumes, etc that also define them.

In short, NO.

With that said, I have no interest in arguing about the elusive "essence" of Oriental dance.

We haven't been able to actually define it on ANY forum, and the best we can do when talking about it is to say "Watch a bunch of Fifi videos -- you'll get it." Is it actually a QUALITY of the dancer, or is the dancer/musician dynamic, or is it a characteristic of audience expectation, or something else?

I'm not interested in discussing the above any more, but for the sake of your question, let's agree that there is a cetain "essence" common to Oriental dancers, that is culturally-based.

You ask if a certain culturally-based essence is inherent in western dance like ballet and modern, and the answer is basically no.

Ballet is a creation. It was a creation with a mission. Its mission is to explore certain theories. There are theories of movement and, in Ballanchine especially, the theory of the line. Ballet was a RESPONSE to pre-existing dance and movement. It is a structured way of using movement ITSELF as narration and exploring both narrative and emotional responses to music and story. (Lincoln Kirstein wrote about this a lot -- and he writes much better than I do.)

While I can admire the technical skill required to perform these, I have to admit I generally don't *feel* anything coming from the dancers of these genres, in terms of emotional or energy connection, essence, or spirit.

This is probably the same problem a lot of people have with modern visual art. Unfortunately, ballet has developed to such a point that it is practically necessary to know something about both movement and music -- and ballet in general --in order to fully appreciate what is happening on stage, especially when you move beyond the simple storybook fairy tales.

Ballet is also a group effort. You aren't SUPPOSED to be looking at the individual energy coming from one particular dancer, for the most part. You're supposed to be looking at the big picture. Look at what is being said, instead of who's saying it.

Also, ballet dancers aren't, for the most part, supposed to be who they are. I grew up with Darci Kistler and Gelsey Kirkland as my hereos. Darci never got to BE Darci. She always played a role. Gelsey's tragic life experiences were never shown on stage -- she was always somebody else. Ballet dancers are characters in the ballet. Even in plotless ballets, you're STILL not you -- you're a character.

Contrast that to Oriental -- even when Nagwa's playing a character on stage, she still gets to be Nagwa when she dances. Samia played a lot of characters in the movies, but when she dances, she's STILL Samia.

Whereas I have felt such from oriental dancers (of course), flamenco dancers, hip hop dancers, Indian dancers, etc. Dancers of genres outside of mainstream western.

Two things:

1. You know what to look for in Flamenco and Oriental dance. You're looking for the dancer's emotional reaction to the music. It's what you've been taught is the goal of the Oriental dancer, so you're looking for it.

2. You've probably seen competitive ballroom dance, storybook ballets, and Martha Graham style modern dance. Ballet and Modern dance can be intellectual or emotional, or both. Most typical regional companies do storybook ballets, and the goal in those isn't emotional expression as you've come to expect from Oriental dance.

Keep in mind the GOAL and the point of Ballet/modern dance is different than the goal of Oriental.

Does one see, for example, dancers who use ballet movements (executed with technical skill), appropriate music and costumes, etc. but the whole thing doesn't quite add up to "ballet" because there is some missing feeling or essence?

Not really.

If it doesn't fit the "rules" or goals of accepted "ballet," it becomes "modern ballet." If the goal of the dance is something else, it's "modern" dance.

A lot of people would have at one time argued that modern dance is what you describe above -- something that just doesn't add up to ballet. That feeling isn't prevalent anymore, but the goals of the two dances are different. Just like painting -- are you going for photo-realism or impressionism? Both approaches are valid, and neither is more "artsy" than the other -- they just have different goals.

And i'm not talking about merely "bad' ballet, but a shell of ballet -- the movements are all there but the parts don't add up to the whole that is supposed to be there, because there is a missing cultural context, subtle nuances in the dance pattern, or feeling that the dancer is supposed to have but doesn't.

Older dancers will dance differently than younger ones. Life experience DOES have an effect on ballet dancers, and I'm not talking just about injuries. The emotional response is different. There IS an emotional response of the ballet dancer, but it's VERY subtle, especially if you compare it to Oriental dance.

Like I said earlier, it almost takes an eye that knows what to look for to discern the more "emotional" or "connected" dancer. (I think this is something ballet is trying to work very hard to fix, but it's a lot like opera. There is SOOO much stuff you have to understand about the setting and story of any opera before you can really understand what the composer was trying to accomplish.)

And sometimes you get a piece that some famous choreographer makes for your company and you JUST DON'T GET IT! What the heck is this supposed to be?? What am I supposed to be feeling or expressing?? It's good dancing, but the dancer may not feel as connected to that particular piece as she does to another one.

The "cultual context" of ballet is in both the STORY of the ballet, if it has a story, the SETTING of the ballet (Polish Jews in WWII versus a palace in Vienna), AND all the dance up to this point in history. New ballet choreographies are always A RESPONSE to what came before, no matter how subtley. Just like all art -- it comes with the baggage of history and everything that came before it.

Or, is the absence of these things one of the characteristics that define the dance?

You're trying to look at western dance with an eastern eye! LOL.

If you take western dance back to the music (which is where I believe it all starts in Oriental dance) you can see that western music is much more intellectual -- it's more concerned with the THOUGHT of something. Of expressing ideas and concepts. Western art in general is like that.

Egyptians would never have invented abstract expressionism in painting. That kind of thinking doesn't seem to have been part of their culture at that time.

BUT, and this is a big but, performance dance and music grow as a reponse to those who are being performed for -- for the audience. The audience expectations in a well-fed court setting are different from those of the "groundlings" or the middle class.

I'm asking because sometimes I think these concepts are in fact missing from mainstream western dance. Perhaps it is a widespread cultural phenomenon, and is why it is difficult or even impossible for some of us to understand the concept of an ethnic dance like raqs sharqi having an essence or spirit.

One of the things that I think we tend to get caught on is the fact that Oriental dance is ethnic or culturally-based. We've talked before about what is the culture of America, and all the problems that entails. What is the culture of Egypt? Before or after it opened to the west? Before or after it was run by the Romans, or the French? Now, or in the 80s? Because the cultures were VERY different during each of these periods. I'm tired of arguing this fact with people, but we HAVE to take this into consideration when we start talking talking about culturally-based dances.

Yes, Egyptian women in their 30s DO dance differently than American women in their 30s, and they dance differently than Mexican immigrant women in their 30s. Different life experiences, different body language, different climate -- whatever makes it different, that "essence" if we want to call it that, is different. But what does that really mean? THAT's what we should be asking ourselves, and trying to figure out how to apply that meaning to how we dance.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Part Two

And for clarity, let me tell you what has prompted my inquiry. One of the most prestigious dance studios in my small town for youth and adult ballet, modern, tap, jazz, and hip hop, recently added a belly dance class taught by someone with over 17 yrs of western dance training but only 10 weeks of beginner level belly dance training.

10 weeks exposure to anything DOES NOT a teacher make.

This is irresponsible on the part of the studio owner. You would NEVER see a ballet dancer take 10 weeks of jazz dance and report for teaching the next week.

It's also probably ignorance. If the studio owner considers bellydance to be a SOCIAL dance, then she's probably a lot like the salsa teachers out here. You take a couple of classes and you teach social salsa. Social dances are not considered ethnic dances -- heck, the guy who taught me in my first salsa class created the 8-week class in order for us to be able to dance with partners on the dance floor. He was FROM the culture and didn't impress on us anything about the history or culture. He knew his audience.

except that she must be completely unaware of everything that goes into oriental dance.

Right -- as a performance art, Oriental dance is complex and requires more than 10 weeks of lessons.

But if you're just wanting some fun moves to add to your social dance repertoire ? ... even Morocco says it ain't rocket science.

Is this just old fashioned ethnocentricity (my dance is complex; yours isn't), or a more generalized cultural phenomenon (all dance is just movement; they can't see it any other way)?

Ballet is unique among the dance forms you've mentioned in your post because it literally takes you 10 years to train your BODY to be able to do the movements necessary in the choreography. In Italian and Vaganova methods, you spend the first 6-8 years of classes molding your body and preparing the muscles for the movements you'll do LATER -- in the next 4 years of class. Ballet movements aren't complex. The training is complex.

I don't think it's any kind of weird general cultural phenomenon. I'm sure Hula teachers in the 1960s and 1970s were thinking exactly the same things you are.

Bellydance is a great social dance draw because:
1. You don't have to mold your body for 10 years before you can get off the barre and dance
2. You don't need a partner
3. You CAN do it on the dance floor at your local club

People don't know what bellydance really is. It's still what Shakira, Beyonce, and Jennifer Lopez are doing. And that's not much. Of course they think they can master it in 10 weeks. Sedonia, you can counter this by performing and teaching and generally doing what those Hula teachers did in the 1970s. Spread the word. Show them bellydance is more than Beyonce!

 

[sedoniaraqs]

Thank you so much, Aziyade, for your very thoughtful responses. Given my lack of western dance background, this gives me alot of interesting stuff to think about, and helps clarify some foggy things that have been rattling around in my brain.

Sedonia

 

[sedoniaraqs]

10 weeks exposure to anything DOES NOT a teacher make.

This is irresponsible on the part of the studio owner. You would NEVER see a ballet dancer take 10 weeks of jazz dance and report for teaching the next week.

here is what I suspect played out. The "belly dance teacher" probably isn't thinking of or presenting her training as a 10 week course. She had the 10-week course 4 years ago, and she's been studying/practicing "on her own" for the rest of the time, plus continuing her formal training in ballet/modern at the studio in question. So she probably seriously thinks she has 4 years of experience at belly dance and has probably convinced the studio owner the same thing. And both have conveniently forgotten about the absence of a belly dance teacher during that 4 years minus 10 weeks.

Sedonia