National attitudes to bellydance and bellydancers

[chryssanthi sahar]

For what it's worth, the woman who is currently the longest-standing belly dance teacher in my town works in high-end specialist scientific research, and I don't think it's been a problem.

Well, maybe it is not a problem in New Zealand and it is also not a problem here in Germany (I had a good dancer friend, who was actually a medical doctor and it was no problem for her to perform), but it may be a problem in the US. And even there, maybe it depents on the State.

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

As about the status of dancers in Egypt: it is not only in Egypt like this. It is all over the Muslim world and of course it has to do with the position of women in Muslim societies. In all societies where women are supposed to be inferior to men, women who do something in public have a bad reputation. It was not different also in our "western" societies until some decades ago. And the problem is not only connected to female artists, but also to male artists. Art can get appreciated by the people, if a society is rich enough to pay the artists in order to be entertained by them. So actually art and artists are only in advanced societies really respected. The poorer a society is, the less respected are the artists, because what they do is not necessary for survival (the only exception maybe are artists who act in religious context). Besides this, there is much folklore art in poorer societies, because acting artistic (especially singing, playing music, dancing), help the people forget about their problems, so what would they need professional artists for?

 

[Silvinka]

...... So actually art and artists are only in advanced societies really respected. The poorer a society is, the less respected are the artists, because what they do is not necessary for survival (the only exception maybe are artists who act in religious context). Besides this, there is much folklore art in poorer societies, because acting artistic (especially singing, playing music, dancing), help the people forget about their problems, so what would they need professional artists for?

I agree on that one! For example during the communist regime, many artist were told what they and how should do their thing. I think most people know those communistic pictures: a woman in a field of barley with her hand raising. Everywhere in the sattelite-countries you found the exact same paintings on buildings and walls. But nobody had such paintings hanging in their livingroom, maybe the ultra-supah-dupah-communists And those artist didn't get much money out of it, well if they were communist to the bone they did.
And there were also many restrictions about music, theatre and comedy. Although dance was a common thing, i dont think that bellydance would fit into the communist minds I noticed that during this time people hang more to its own cultural background and identity then nowerdays. Meaning that because of the restrictions, more folklore and mythical stories came into the picture.

Maybe this is not a very good compairment and a bit off-topic and most of all NOT an addempt to discuss communism, but i hope you will get the general idea of what i'm saying. The religeous and political state of a country can suppress any art form.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitude, etc.

Dear Bin Rodi,
Thank you for your contributions to the forum. I think that you do tell the story from one side only by the way. Once dancers become rich and famous, many people respect and love them. I have heard this from Egyptians themselves. They LOVE Fifi Abdou, who has never forgotten the people in her neighborhood where she was young. She always makes an Eid feast as well as being generous at other times. She also refuses to change her voice and it remains the rough voice of the Shaabi instead of becoming refined. Suheir Zaki is and was loved by the people because she danced beautifully and she was often asked to kiss the heads of children when she was dancing. There were and are others who are loved among the Egyptian people, according to my Egyptian friends.
Yes, the idea of belly dancing is looked down on by a LOT of people, but often individual belly dancers are adored. As you said, it is a confusing psychology.
Regards,
A'isha

you are welcome yasmine, really belly dancers suffer of problems in west??
but i guess still they can walk in the street without somebody spit on them
you are welcome anyway

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Bin Rodi,
Thank you for your contributions to the forum. I think that you do tell the story from one side only by the way. Once dancers become rich and famous, many people respect and love them. I have heard this from Egyptians themselves. They LOVE Fifi Abdou, who has never forgotten the people in her neighborhood where she was young. She always makes an Eid feast as well as being generous at other times. She also refuses to change her voice and it remains the rough voice of the Shaabi instead of becoming refined. Suheir Zaki is and was loved by the people because she danced beautifully and she was often asked to kiss the heads of children when she was dancing. There were and are others who are loved among the Egyptian people, according to my Egyptian friends.
Yes, the idea of belly dancing is looked down on by a LOT of people, but often individual belly dancers are adored. As you said, it is a confusing psychology.
Regards,
A'isha

firstly you mentioned Suhair Zaki as an instance
if you red what i wrote well, you find me saying that belly dancers were a LITTLE BIT respected before 70's
suhair Zaki was performing in 60's and early 70's
but now according to the date we are 2006
which i also said they are not respected because the islamizing of everything now in my country

as you said may be people love fifi Abdou a lot but they don't respect her
she may have money, may have power, may have strong contacts with politicians and police leaders
but still the ordinary citizen in egypt look at her as they look to hooker
you know there i as an insulting word people use to insult each other here in egypt it's "ebn elrakasa" it's like for an instance "you son of b****"

why don't you ask all belly dancers now why they use nick names like Fifi, dina, hendiya etc......
why don't they use their full names???

why don't you research their relationships with relatives and family because of chooseing these career???

why belly dancing is banned in countries like Saudi Arabia???
i saw a girl here from Saudi Arabia called Majnoona ask her what happen if she belly danced in Saudi Arabia

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitudes, etc.

Dear Bin Rodi,
Actually, Soheir Zaki continued to dance into the 1990s, and was loved by the people.
One can not love someone without respecting them. Love requires a certain amount of respect. Yes, there is the majority who think all dancers are sharmutas, but that does not make it the whole country. Many Egyptians love belly dancers, whether or not they would want their daughters to be one. You still find them at many weddings and other celebrations, as you must know if you are Egyptian.
I know that you are correct in that right now there are many Islamic conservative thinkers who are influencing the society and the politics of Egypt, and this has made it difficult in some ways for belly dancers there, especially Egyptian girls who might want to have dance as their career. However, I state once again that while many Egyptians might not like the idea of their daughter becoming a belly dncer, this does not mean they don't like belly dancers....only that it is politically correct to say you don't. Here in America, it is strippers people feel this way about. People claim they hate the stripper...yet there are strip joints everywhere and if people really hated them, there would be no jobs for them and they would disappear.
Re the name thing. I live in America and do not dance under my birth name or my married name. Many entertainers do not simply because it gives them and their families a degree of privacy. There might be a more social reason for Egyptian belly dancers not to use their names and you are correct in that part of it is to save the family embarrassment.
Sauid Arabia is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance form. Saudi Arabia is a VERY different place than Egypt (My best friend is Saudi. Her husband is from Iskandria in Egypt. She is a rebel!! As you know, many Saudis would not think of marrying an Egyptian because they are often part of the servant class in Saudi. ) Actually, I know several of the Al Asaaf family and several of the Al Athel family, both related to the King and they did have belly dancers imported to dance at their weddings, along with having singers. For one thing, there is very little of any kind of public entertainment in Saudi Arabia, no movie theatres, for example. As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously?? When it comes to Saudi women dancing, I have seen video footage from private parties that would really surprise you.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Moon]

As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously??

Why, what does it mean?

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitude

Dear Moon,
I doubt that Majnoonah is the girl's name at all, because it means, like, "Crazy" in Arabic. I have very limited Arabic that hasw stuck in my head , but this is one of the words with which I am familiar. Since my best friend is a Saudi and I hang around with a lot of Arabs from different countires, I am usually able to get a translation for just about anything, thank goodness.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[da Sage]

And there were also many restrictions about music, theatre and comedy. Although dance was a common thing, i dont think that bellydance would fit into the communist minds I noticed that during this time people hang more to its own cultural background and identity then nowerdays. Meaning that because of the restrictions, more folklore and mythical stories came into the picture.
<snip!>
The religeous and political state of a country can suppress any art form.

I think that the communist countries would sometimes support the historic dances of the region, as a way to co-opt the people's heritage. When they ran a dance troupe with state money, it was like saying communism is the art of the people, and vice versa.

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Bin Rodi,
Actually, Soheir Zaki continued to dance into the 1990s, and was loved by the people.
One can not love someone without respecting them. Love requires a certain amount of respect. Yes, there is the majority who think all dancers are sharmutas, but that does not make it the whole country. Many Egyptians love belly dancers, whether or not they would want their daughters to be one. You still find them at many weddings and other celebrations, as you must know if you are Egyptian.
I know that you are correct in that right now there are many Islamic conservative thinkers who are influencing the soceity and the politics of Egypt, and this has made it difficult in some ways for belly dancers there, especially Egyptian girls who might want to have dance as their career. However, I state once again that while many Egyptians might not like the idea of their daughter becoming a belly dncer, this does not mean they don;t like belly dancrs....only that it is politically correct to say you don;t. Here in America, it is strippers people feel this way about. People claim they hate the striper...yet there are strip joints everywhere and if people really hated them, there would be no jobs for them and they would disappear.
Te the name thing. I live in America and do not dance under my birth name or my married name. Many entertainers do not simply because it gives them and their families a degree of privacy. There might be a more social reason for Egyptian belly dancers not to use their names and you are correct in that part of it is to save the fanily embarrassment.
Sauid Arabi is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance form. Saudi Arabia is a VERY different place than Egypt (My best friend is Saudi. Her husband is from Iskandria in Egypt. She is a rebel!! As you know, many Saudis would not think of marrying an Egyptian because they are often part of the servant class in Saudi. ) Actually, I know several of the Al Asaaf family and several of the Al Athel family, both related to the King and they did have belly dancers imported to dance at their weddings, along with having singers. For one thing, there is very little of any kind of public entertainment in Saudi Arabia, no movie theatres, for example. As for the Saudi girl, Majoonah, how does one take a girl with this name seriously?? When it comes to Saudi women dancing, I have seen video footage from private parties that would really surprise you.
Regards,
A'isha

why can't i see suhair Zaki in media after her 70's movies as long as you said she kept danceing till 90's??


is because Sauid Arabi is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance means they should ban it there??? and punish savagly women who practice it???
Israel is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance but despite they allow it and sponsor it
USA is not one of the countries where Raqs Sharghi is a native dance but despite they allow it and sponsor it

breifly the love point you said is just the schezophrinic part of muslim communities which you find people enjoy the performance and scorn the belly dancer as a hooker same time

it's ungreatful manner when you get the milk then you slay the cow

royal saudi family bellydancers same time they issue rules to deprive people from it

all what you said about dancing in Saudi arabia done in "underground" way,
it's illegal (according to that abnormal laws of that country) and may cause the death of people who perform it

 

[da Sage]

Well, maybe it is not a problem in New Zealand and it is also not a problem here in Germany (I had a good dancer friend, who was actually a medical doctor and it was no problem for her to perform), but it may be a problem in the US. And even there, maybe it depents on the State.

I would never let it get out that I study bellydance, unless I had established myself well in a permanent job (which I haven't).

And women who are highly educated or trained in their professions have a lot more leeway than the average Jill. The more specialized the job, the less likely it is that a woman (or man) will see negative repercussions in the workplace for having an odd hobby.

I think it would be impossible for a female politician to openly belly-dance and still be re-elected anywhere in the world (except maybe Iceland, Finland, and the other Scandinavian countries, which are quite liberal).

 

[Aniseteph]

I think it would be impossible for a female politician to openly belly-dance and still be re-elected anywhere in the world (except maybe Iceland, Finland, and the other Scandinavian countries, which are quite liberal).

Yes, but we can dream, can't we...? :dance:

 

[Aisha Azar]

National, etc.

Dear Bin Rodi,
May I ask where you are from? I see that you state you live in Cairo... are you from there?
Where in Saudi Arabia would you expect to see belly dancers performing? There are no clubs, no theatres, no venues. Women dance in private and there is no rule against it. I own footage of women dancing in front of men, though it is Khaliji dance and not belly dance, so there goes that stereotype, too. There is a Sura or a passage in Hadith against dancing, I can not remember which. Can you tell us? There is a Sura that talks against being ALONE with a person of the opposite sex if we are talking traditional Islam. This rule applies to both men and women, both of whom, if they are married to other people, can be killed if seuxal contact has happened. If one is single, then they can be beaten for being found alone with a person of the opposite sex. ( I wrote a master's thesis on Islamic law in comparison with western law, and learned something about the subject, though I do have much still to learn.) If we are talking Saudi tradition, then it is often a matter of what the family wants, and not Islamic precepts at all. There is no need to ban belly dance in Saudi Arabia because there is no place that would be open to the public to see it.
I have footage of Soheir Zaki performing in 1990. She also performed throughout the Middle East in the 1980s. A famous American dancer, Shareen El Safy, opened for her every night at one of the Cairo hotels ( I forget which one...El Leil, maybe??) in the early 1980s. Many Egyptians never get to go to the higher class clubs where famous dancers are seen because they can not afford it, according to my Egyptian friends. Many of my freinds have never been themselves unless they were working there. I find this to be terrible.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Kiraze]

As about the status of dancers in Egypt: it is not only in Egypt like this. It is all over the Muslim world and of course it has to do with the position of women in Muslim societies...

This I do not fully agree: Muslim world is much wider than most of us even think and all Muslims are not Arabs (in fact these days only ca. 20% of all the Muslims are Arabs).

Most non-Arab Muslim countries like Turkey, most Central Asian countries, Malaysia, Brunei and even Indonesia are quite liberal with their attitudes both towards women and dancing (of course there can be regional differencies as most of these countries are big) - and even Arab countries like Lebanon, Morocco and Tunisia are not so stiff-necked either... so it is impossible to generalize when talking about more than 1 billion people

I think it would be impossible for a female politician to openly belly-dance and still be re-elected anywhere in the world (except maybe Iceland, Finland, and the other Scandinavian countries, which are quite liberal).

yes, even the president of Finland has openly admitted to participate on belly dance classes so we have a support from the highest position of the country

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitudes, etc.

Dear Group,
Last night I talked to my friend, Leila, who is Saudi, about the Saudi attitude toward belly dance. She said that of course no one is killed for belly dancing in Saudi Arabia and that dancers are indeed imported for parties all the time. She also told me something that I did not know. It seems that fitness clubs for women in Saudi Arabia have offered belly dancing to their clients for a very long time. Her mother died when she was 12 years old. Let's say that Leila has not been 12 for "some years", but her mother took belly dance classes at her fitness club in Riyadh the late 1980s. Hopefully we can now dispense with the rumor that women are killed or "punished savagely" for belly dancing in Saudi Arabia.
Saudi Arabia is a country where generally the family will determine what people ( and that includes men) will or will not do. In very strict families, women will probably not take belly dance lessons...partly because they themselves would consider it to be beneath them. Other women will dance and enjoy it even in front of men. Leila has seen Fifi and other dancers ( Fifi is her favorite) in the company of both male and female members of her family. She is not unusual in this, though she is unusual in other very positive ways!!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Moon]

Dear Moon,
I doubt that Majnoonah is the girl's name at all, because it means, like, "Crazy" in Arabic.

Thank you for translating. Now I recognise it. I heard this song "Ya magnoun" for which I looked up the lyrics and it meant something like mad man.

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Bin Rodi,
May I ask where you are from? I see that you state you live in Cairo... are you from there?
Where in Saudi Arabia would you expect to see belly dancers performing? There are no clubs, no theatres, no venues. Women dance in private and there is no rule against it. I own footage of women dancing in front of men, though it is Khaliji dance and not belly dance, so there goes that stereotype, too. There is a Sura or a passage in Hadith against dancing, I can not remember which. Can you tell us? There is a Sura that talks against being ALONE with a person of the opposite sex if we are talking traditional Islam. This rule applies to both men and women, both of whom, if they are married to other people, can be killed if seuxal contact has happened. If one is single, then they can be beaten for being found alone with a person of the opposite sex. ( I wrote a master's thesis on Islamic law in comparison with western law, and learned something about the subject, though I do have much still to learn.) If we are talking Saudi tradition, then it is often a matter of what the family wants, and not Islamic precepts at all. There is no need to ban belly dance in Saudi Arabia because there is no place that would be open to the public to see it.
I have footage of Soheir Zaki performing in 1990. She also performed throughout the Middle East in the 1980s. A famous American dancer, Shareen El Safy, opened for her every night at one of the Cairo hotels ( I forget which one...El Leil, maybe??) in the early 1980s. Many Egyptians never get to go to the higher class clubs where famous dancers are seen because they can not afford it, according to my Egyptian friends. Many of my freinds have never been themselves unless they were working there. I find this to be terrible.
Regards,
A'isha

iam from cairo
you mean the thing prevent Saudi arabia of allowing belly dancing is they can't have night clubs??
you mean laws which is directly from islam allow it but it's only the place which they can not build is the real problem???

the fottage you mentioned show how my theory "underground belly danicing grroups" is accurate
they all gods in dancing away off the government and society sight

you still confirm what i say about Islam-bellydancing ill relationship by talking about that hadith and that kor'an chapter

suhair Zaki when perform once or twice in the 90's never mean she spent all the 90's in bellydancing
and did she perform in 1980's in egypt????

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitude

Dear Bin Rodi,
Thank you fro replying to my questions about where you are from. I was not sure becasue you call yourself Son if Rodi and this does not seem so common among the Egyptians that I know, but more common among Arabs from some other countries.
As I stated before, belly dance is not prevented. Did you read my post about how belly dance is taught at fitness clubs in Saudi Arabia? The Mutawah would certainly not allow that if it was illegal there. They would see to it that those clubs were closed down. They certainly never kill anyone for dancing. You will ntoice that there are no movie theatres in S. A. either, but movies are not illegal ( although they used to black out all the sexual content until recently...)
The Sura that I mentioned from the Qur'an only proves that Muslims, like Christians and any other religious groups, have members that do what they want to do rather than what the religion says to do. It proves nothing about belly dance itself and my point was that what Islam says and what is done are two different things.
Yes, Sohair Zaki was dancing in Egypt in the 1980s. I told you that Shareen El Safy opened for her at the hotel where she danced. I do not know about the 1990s. Since neither you nor I know how often she danced, I will not venture to say if it was just a few times, as you imply, or more.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Bin Rodi,
Thank you fro replying to my questions about where you are from. I was not sure becasue you call yourself Son if Rodi and this does not seem so common among the Egyptians that I know, but more common among Arabs from some other countries.
As I stated before, belly dance is not prevented. Did you read my post about how belly dance is taught at fitness clubs in Saudi Arabia? The Mutawah would certainly not allow that if it was illegal there. They would see to it that those clubs were closed down. They certainly never kill anyone for dancing. You will ntoice that there are no movie theatres in S. A. either, but movies are not illegal ( although they used to black out all the sexual content until recently...)
The Sura that I mentioned from the Qur'an only proves that Muslims, like Christians and any other religious groups, have members that do what they want to do rather than what the religion says to do. It proves nothing about belly dance itself and my point was that what Islam says and what is done are two different things.
Yes, Sohair Zaki was dancing in Egypt in the 1980s. I told you that Shareen El Safy opened for her at the hotel where she danced. I do not know about the 1990s. Since neither you nor I know how often she danced, I will not venture to say if it was just a few times, as you imply, or more.
Regards,
A'isha

bin rodi is a nickname ma'am, you know people on the cyber use nicknames in usual
and so the muslim community bellydancers as well :lol:

you said firstly that the whole problem is they don't have a place to dance in saudi arabia
but now you are saying they have places to dance like "health clubs" !!
The Mutawah do what kor'an and hadith tell
they ban arts in general because it's "regs men amal elshaytaan" or "Filth from the devil"
of course there will be some "underground" belly dancing but this never mean Isalm is Tolerant with arts in general

you Saudi Friend can tell what she want because i really realize how is the muslims credibility toward this specially in front of westerners

suhair zaki can keep dancing but with resizing her work to fit 80's and 90's as i said i never saw her in the media like it was in 70's or before
not just her but the bellydancers in general

did you lived in egypt after the 70's??
are you muslim???

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitudes

Bin Rodi,
And did you live in Saudi Arabia after the 70s and are you Saudi? And are you a woman who would be in a position to see what goes on in fitness clubs there, or in beauty parlors for women, or the womens' side of the mosque?
I think that my best friend feels safe enough with me to tell me the truth of her life in Saudi Arabia. You have no idea of our history together and I resent you trying to imply that I am being told lies by my friend.
There are no venues for seeing belly dance in Saudi Arabia;no nightclubs, no theatres where it is presented, etc. If you choose to twist my words, go ahead. People belly dance in their own homes and at parties and they obviously are able to learn the dance at fitness clubs. If you choose not to believe it, then that's just fine, but don't come here on this forum and try to say that I don't know what I am talking about. Just because YOU did not see Soheir Zaki dance does not mean she did not. Just because YOU think people are "savagely punished" for dancing in Saudi Arabia does not mean it is the last word about it.
I have been a dancer for almost 33 years.... I am probably dancing longer than you have been on the planet. It is my passsion and my job to know what I am talking about in this field.
I am not a Muslim, I am not a Christian or a Hindi, etc. If you want to know my religion, I am a Panthiest who believes that there is not one thing that happens that is not from the mind and soul of God. However, this does not mean that I do not know anything about Islam or Christianity; only that I must dig a little deeper to get the answers about specific religions. Fortunately, my best friend is a Saudi Muslim and I have access to the knowledge and experience of Muslims from all over the world. I had dinner two nights ago in a restuarant that is owned by two Yemenis and a Jordanian. My companion was a Saudi. I feel free to ask any of them any relgious question.
I am not going to get into an argument with you here, unless you can back up your statements. I have proof on video that Soheir Zaki was dancing in 1990 and I trust my friend to tell me the truth. I am done responding unless you take a better tone.
A'isha Azar