No hope

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
More male dancers required then, the lack of, I see largely as men's fault and their insecurity about their masculinity. To you ladies when you see a male dancer, do you see femininity or masculinity, if it is the latter, please communicate this to males and there might be a change? As for a lot of males, their worst nightmare is for a woman not to see them as masculine and so masculine they must be, any hint of their action being in the slightest, feminine, they avoid. A vicious circle based largely on misunderstanding and misinformation, a failure of communication between the sexes.
Aha! Like me, I see you're giving a lot of thought to the matter - and have come to much the same conclusion. This is, indeed, the root cause of "stupid male tricks" like in my post immediately above.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Males, etc.

As this thread is aclled 'no hope' I thought this would fit here.

On Friday night at Raqs B, Ozgen who is a really nice guy and great entertainer performed his piece. Ok, he removed his tight shirt to reveal his bare midriff etc. but the women shrieked and wooped so much through his dance he had to signal to them to shush.

If this happend whilst a woman was dancing for an audience of men, everyone would be having a real go at the men and calling them for everything. Some women need to get a serious grip of themselves and stop whining about the behaviour of men whilst imitating them at their worst.



Dear Caroline,
And this is one of the main problems that I have pointed out about all male shows, though I have been hissed and booed and told it would not happen like that at an all male show. Wanna Bet? Many women never get past the idea that there is a man dancing, and they are not even capable of having any insight into the quality of the dance being presented. They are too hung up on that it is a man dancing. It makes it difficult to judge in review whether the poor man was any good or not, unless you are there to see for yourself.
Many people say this issue will disappear in an all male show, but my feeling is that it will be just as prevalent, but people will be reluctant to admit it for fear of being politically incorrect. The problem will not disappear just because everyone on stage is a male. It will be compounded.
The room for abuse in such a situation is enhanced. Males being treated like meat or like stars when they are really just average dancers is magnified. The chance for males to treat women like only students and acolytes instead of colleagues is also magnified. This is a two way street.
Now, anyone who wants to tear into me for saying so, go for it. As more and more shows go on without females, maybe you will begin to get the picture.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Dear Caroline,
And this is one of the main problems that I have pointed out about all male shows, though I have been hissed and booed and told it would not happen like that at an all male show. Wanna Bet? Many women never get past the idea that there is a man dancing, and they are not even capable of having any insight into the quality of the dance being presented. They are too hung up on that it is a man dancing. It makes it difficult to judge in review whether the poor man was any good or not, unless you are there to see for yourself.
Many people say this issue will disappear in an all male show, but my feeling is that it will be just as prevalent, but people will be reluctant to admit it for fear of being politically incorrect. The problem will not disappear just because everyone on stage is a male. It will be compounded.
The room for abuse in such a situation is enhanced. Males being treated like meat or like stars when they are really just average dancers is magnified. The chance for males to treat women like only students and acolytes instead of colleagues is also magnified. This is a two way street.
Now, anyone who wants to tear into me for saying so, go for it. As more and more shows go on without females, maybe you will begin to get the picture.
Regards,
A'isha

For the forum:

Ahhh, yeah, but this was a mixed gendered show. Ozgun and Shafik were the only guys in the show. ...... I know, lets just ban male dancers altogether. Then we won't have to worry about people making a fuss over them when they are only mediocre or have to put up with them trying to put women in inferior positions. Honestly, there is more going on here when it comes to the over exaggerated reactions of women. If you watch footage of the Merrie Monarch Hula Festival in Hawaii, the women always react the exact same way to the men. So instead of feeling threatened can we simply figure out exactly what is going on here? Could it be that the reaction is so exaggerated because women are so often overlooked when it comes to performances that cater to their aesthetic? I did a job on Mother's Day and was told that they had no idea such a thing as a male Oriental Dancer existed. They wanted something a bit sensual for the ladies, but had no other options than a stripper. When he asked whether they wanted him to come out erect or non erect they started looking for other options and that's when they stumbled across me. I think this speaks volumes and may have something to do with the types of reactions we've discussed before. LEts' try not to throw the baby out with the bath water shall we.
 

khanjar

New member
Aha! Like me, I see you're giving a lot of thought to the matter - and have come to much the same conclusion. This is, indeed, the root cause of "stupid male tricks" like in my post immediately above.

What is particularly sad about all of this, is that we now live in a technological age with massive advances in personal communication, the internet, being IMO a massive forum for the common man to speak their personal thoughts. So this being so, we should be able to get this age old stupidity under control, if we can't, then what is the point in all this technology, makes it kind of useless. If technology can advance to serve us, then we as humans should advance in our thought and actions.

And how about a radical thought on the subject of creating more male dancers, women, I feel they are the solution. If women were to speak to their partners and friends who are male. Tell them it is ok for men to dance , it does not affect their masculinity and women want to see more males involved in the art they themselves love, as an art, not a titillation, maybe some things will change.

To some men this, will come as a reassurance, confirmation that they are human too and as a human they are permitted to express themselves in truth not ideals.

Of course this may not work for some other males, as there are some who love their existing ways, and are totally confident in that, perhaps it is these people, who have absolute love for themselves and their take on masculinity, nothing left to offer another. I have known some of these people, what I call the caveman type, they are happier around their own sex and their relationships with women do not last, as they see women as aliens, not people. Surely most of us can move on a bit now.
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Overreactions

I guess all those bobby sockers back in the 40's were too busy screaming to notice that Frank Sinatra sucked a big one.

I guess if these girls would have shut up for a minute they would have seen that Elvis wasn't all that.



I guess the Beatles were only mediocre talents at best. Besides they stole Twist and Shout from the Eisley Brothers



Honestly folks. Sarcasm aside. As we can see, there's a long history of women flipping out over men. IS there anyone who can remember of a female singer driving crowds of people into a frenzy like this? There is something going on here when it comes to female sexuality and to blame it on Male dancers is to put the blame where it doesn't belong and miss the point. What is really going on with female sexuality in our culture that causes them to react in such a violent manner? Could it be because women have to be so guarded about showing their sexuality lest they be branded as sluts that under circumstances like this they blow their stacks? Could it be an expression of pent up frustration, anger, diffiance, (sp?) at societies hypocrisy and trying to control the expression of female sexuality?
 

Suheir

New member
As we can see, there's a long history of women flipping out over men.
Ah, but those Beatlemaniacs, etc, were girls, not middle-aged women who appear never to have seen a man before. I have to wonder what happened to the dignity and self-respect of grown women who bellow like animals at male dancers.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Males dancing

Der Khanjar.

What is particularly sad about all of this, is that we now live in a technological age with massive advances in personal communication, the internet, being IMO a massive forum for the common man to speak their personal thoughts. So this being so, we should be able to get this age old stupidity under control, if we can't, then what is the point in all this technology, makes it kind of useless. If technology can advance to serve us, then we as humans should advance in our thought and actions.


Well........ the dance is a whole nother thing than technology.......

And how about a radical thought on the subject of creating more male dancers, women, I feel they are the solution. If women were to speak to their partners and friends who are male. Tell them it is ok for men to dance , it does not affect their masculinity and women want to see more males involved in the art they themselves love, as an art, not a titillation, maybe some things will change.


I think we can let men make up their own minds, and men have been dancing this dance for a long, long time and things have not changed. I think that most men get the message that it is not okay to dance from other men and from themselves, not so much from women. Most of the women that I know in dance are up for being egalitarian about treating men and women alike as far as them dancing. What I do not like is that many people are beginning to treat men as if they are somehow more special than women in dance, and they are not. They are not even that rare, for goodness sakes!! They are everywhere.


To some men this, will come as a reassurance, confirmation that they are human too and as a human they are permitted to express themselves in truth not ideals.


And why should males get that kind of approval any more than women do when they dance? You should hear some of the stories of things that women have had to deal with to dance, even on this forum. They get no reassurance, no confirmation except from us and no kind of acceptance, told they are whores, etc, because they want to dance. Should men somehow be above all this and exempt from it? The truth is that women often go through the same kind of gamut in order to dance. Some men seem to want special dispensation because they are men.

Of course this may not work for some other males, as there are some who love their existing ways, and are totally confident in that, perhaps it is these people, who have absolute love for themselves and their take on masculinity, nothing left to offer another. I have known some of these people, what I call the caveman type, they are happier around their own sex and their relationships with women do not last, as they see women as aliens, not people. Surely most of us can move on a bit now.

There are plenty of men out there, both in and out of the dance that are secure in their masculinity, do not want to change, have a strong love of themselves etc, who are darn nice guys and do not act like cavemen at all. In fact they are secure enough to admit that it is okay to be a dancer and that it is okay not to be one as well. They are not concerned about what other men are doing. My husband is all male, he is a carpenter, he swears like a sailor's parrot, takes out the garbage, makes love like there is no tomorrow, fixes the cars, does all the guy stuff..... and he is the kindest man I know. His relationship with me has so far lasted 36 years, yet he would far rather hang out with the guys than with a group of women any day. This does not make him a caveman. It makes him a man who has his own set of interests that don't happen to include learning to belly dance. He is an incredibly Zen, live and let live kind of person and I wish there were nor like him out there. In fact, I wish I were more like him, but, I am who I am and he loves me.

Regards,
A'isha
 

khanjar

New member
Der Khanjar.



There are plenty of men out there, both in and out of the dance that are secure in their masculinity, do not want to change, have a strong love of themselves etc, who are darn nice guys and do not act like cavemen at all. In fact they are secure enough to admit that it is okay to be a dancer and that it is okay not to be one as well. They are not concerned about what other men are doing. My husband is all male, he is a carpenter, he swears like a sailor's parrot, takes out the garbage, makes love like there is no tomorrow, fixes the cars, does all the guy stuff..... and he is the kindest man I know. His relationship with me has so far lasted 36 years, yet he would far rather hang out with the guys than with a group of women any day. This does not make him a caveman. It makes him a man who has his own set of interests that don't happen to include learning to belly dance. He is an incredibly Zen, live and let live kind of person and I wish there were nor like him out there. In fact, I wish I were more like him, but, I am who I am and he loves me.

Regards,
A'isha

I think A'isha you have misunderstood what I was trying to say here. I have quoted an extreme, as I have known extremes, as I have met extremes of the female sex too. Possibly minorities, but they are what they are and though I tend not to agree with their actions, they are entitled to their own belief.

I have never heard of a woman being referred to as a whore if they express an interest in dancing, not in the Western world at least and I am in what I wrote thinking about how things apply to us in the Western World. The ME world is different, at least in some places, but I live in the west, so my thoughts are of the west.

I don't know whether it comes across or not, but I believe wholeheartedly in equality of the sexes, in all things aside from the obvious biological differences and then some of the past set roles can be challenged, childcare for example, that to me is the role of both parents, not one.

Employment, well the belief is, a person's gender is irrelevant, as long as they can do the job who cares.

But because certain activities have shifted in one gender's direction, I think help is needed to achieve a balance, be it heavy industry or dance. If people wish to see a balance, then they could be instrumental in achieving that balance.

If one would like to keep things as they are, or indeed revert back to what they might have been, then to accept that, one must accept all as one cannot pick and choose as all that creates is confusion.

An interesting programme was on the TV this morning, about the women in Dubai, it was said on this programme that the UAE has the highest number of female MP's than any other Islamic country, that I found excellent and welcome it's happening. Not only that, but there women can do many of the traditional male activities, motor racing for example. The women there do the things they do and observe certain social codes and it appears to work. Now, it might be wealth that is propelling this, but it is a change and can only be good for the future, not just of that country, but the rest of the ME and beyond.

Technology has nothing to do with dance, well to that I have to disagree, as without this technology communication with other dancers would be pretty difficult beyond the local enviroment and then only when one meets another. Technology is here, and it is here to serve us and we should use it to advantage, as it is with media reporting in some of the more obscure parts of the world, issues of interest perhaps, brought to attention of the watching world. Often the world aware leads to change. Change might also lead to a new set of problems, but it is progress and progression should not be dismissed.

You say that you feel men need special treatment because they are men, well, not really, but if someone needed help,man or woman, then I would give it, that is just me, but only as far as is necessary, special treatment beyond, no, not that, a person then has their own two feet to stand on and will only realise their potential by doing things on their own two feet.

Male dancers are everywhere, well I could not say on this, not where I live anyway, although I do know of one in my city who is currently male, a true hermaphrodite who is moving more towards the gender of choice.
 
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Caroline_afifi

New member
I dont think by removing men we remove the problem. Yes, girls scream at rockstars etc. and I have never understood this, but like Suheir said... Grown women!!

Enjoy it? yes, admire the body... yes thats ok, admire the dance? if it is good, but scream??? AAAHHHHH I just did.

It is not the fault of men and it is a learned behaviour from women, but learned from who and why?

I did see one male student at a festival and he was clearly in it for adoration I am sure. He jumped on the stage at every available opportunity and screamed adore me and would have recieved no attention doing the same had he been a woman.

It is perhaps easier for men to have their ego massaged in this scene but there are also great weights stacked against them in other areas.
We should respect people who respect the art and this goes for men and women. Leave the rest to masturbate without a screaming audience... mmm perhaps that is what it is... a faked orgasm!!!

I still believe an all male show would be the test of this. Would women really scream all the way through?? I cant believe this. It is easy when it is just one or two on an a female dominated programme. Has anyone seen any to tell us??

By the way, no one screamed or whooped at Shafeek but they did become more animated in their clapping etc.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dance, etc.

Dear Khanjar,
There may be some snippage for length in this response.

I think A'isha you have misunderstood what I was trying to say here. I have quoted an extreme, as I have known extremes, as I have met extremes of the female sex too. Possibly minorities, but they are what they are and though I tend not to agree with their actions, they are entitled to their own belief.

Okay, but you reported it as it were every day life going by.

I have never heard of a woman being referred to as a whore if they express an interest in dancing, not in the Western world at least and I am in what I wrote thinking about how things apply to us in the Western World. The ME world is different, at least in some places, but I live in the west, so my thoughts are of the west.


Really? Well right on this forum I have heard women say that they have been discouraged from dancing because the dance is nasty, or too sexy or that whores only dance like that. They are western women who have talked about this.

I don't know whether it comes across or not, but I believe wholeheartedly in equality of the sexes, in all things aside from the obvious biological differences and then some of the past set roles can be challenged, childcare for example, that to me is the role of both parents, not one.

I believe that the sexes should be socially equal, entitled to the same rights, etc, but there are still things that men do better and women do better. Belly dance does not happen to be of them, but it is a feminine essenced dance, regardless. Men usually have more upper body strength than women, women are usually more grounded in their pelvises than their chests. This does not make one sex better than they other. This makes them physically fit for different types of work. It means they are different. This does not translate into one being superior, though each may be better at different things than the other.

Employment, well the belief is, a person's gender is irrelevant, as long as they can do the job who cares.

Depends on the job. My husband has often had to take up the slack when he works with females because they are not as strong as he is. They could do the job, but not without more help than a man would need. I resent that my husband has to work harder because someone else can not, yet they are paid the same as he is. By the way, he is not a very big man, being 5'8" and weighing in at about a 140 pounds, but he is way stronger than women his size. However, there are female welders on his job that can weld circles around many of the men.

But because certain activities have shifted in one gender's direction, I think help is needed to achieve a balance, be it heavy industry or dance. If people wish to see a balance, then they could be instrumental in achieving that balance.

Balance does not always mean that gender must be equally balanced in numbers. Sometimes this throws things off badly, bringing the wrong energy into the spirit of things. That's one reason why we do not see male/female soccer teams with names like, "The Bouquets", as opposed to names like "The
Falcons". The essence of the sport is about rugged competition, not discussing it until we come to an equitable things where we both can win. The essence of the sport is masculine, even when female teams play it. Humans are the only animals who keep insisting that there are only activities, not male/ female ones. Take a little look into the animal kingdom and you see plenty of gender specific activity.

If one would like to keep things as they are, or indeed revert back to what they might have been, then to accept that, one must accept all as one cannot pick and choose as all that creates is confusion.

I am sorry. I don't understand this response.

An interesting programme was on the TV this morning, about the women in Dubai, it was said on this programme that the UAE has the highest number of female MP's than any other Islamic country, that I found excellent and welcome it's happening. Not only that, but there women can do many of the traditional male activities, motor racing for example. The women there do the things they do and observe certain social codes and it appears to work. Now, it might be wealth that is propelling this, but it is a change and can only be good for the future, not just of that country, but the rest of the ME and beyond.

Often it is not about being able to physically do the work or not do it. Often it is about having an innate understanding of what the work is. In the case of dance, yes, many men get that they can physically do it, but they leave behind the essence of the dance so completely that they may as well be doing some other activity, because what they are doing is not recognizable as belly dance on any other level. Of course, this can be said of many women as well. The dance is more, much more than a set of physical movements, Leaving its soul behind is indeed leaving the dance behind.

Technology has nothing to do with dance, well to that I have to disagree, as without this technology communication with other dancers would be pretty difficult beyond the local enviroment and then only when one meets another. Technology is here, and it is here to serve us and we should use it to advantage, as it is with media reporting in some of the more obscure parts of the world, issues of interest perhaps, brought to attention of the watching world. Often the world aware leads to change. Change might also lead to a new set of problems, but it is progress and progression should not be dismissed.


The dance itself has nothing to do with technology and has been around for much longer than technology has. Spreading the news about the dance is not the dance.

You say that you feel men need special treatment because they are men,

NO, I said a lot of men want to be treated as if men deserve special treatment. I disagree with that entirely. I have heard men act as if they have such a much harder time being accepted than women do, but they are wrong. The "ideal" belly dancer, according to the social expectation, is a dark haired female beauty with a georgeous figure who swoops around in a veil, with luscious breasts and large dark eyes and a temptress's smile. Well, that is not a male, but it also isn't most dancers that I know, especiallly us older, fatter ones. We can't get work in clubs any more than men can.

well, not really, but if someone needed help,man or woman, then I would give it, that is just me, but only as far as is necessary, special treatment beyond, no, not that, a person then has their own two feet to stand on and will only realise their potential by doing things on their own two feet.

I agree with this.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Males

Dear Caroline,

I did see one male student at a festival and he was clearly in it for adoration I am sure. He jumped on the stage at every available opportunity and screamed adore me and would have recieved no attention doing the same had he been a woman.


Yes, and this happens rather often, does it not? Men are treated specially just because they are men. Women have done this for eons, not just for belly dance, but for all kinds of things. It is part of the way in which, being physically weaker, we as a species survived, as it helped women assure that we and our babies would be taken care of. The point is, it is not just that women scream for men and act like they are better than women when they are not. It is the whole psychology of the thing that is popping up as a trend in the dance scene.

It is perhaps easier for men to have their ego massaged in this scene but there are also great weights stacked against them in other areas.
We should respect people who respect the art and this goes for men and women. Leave the rest to masturbate without a screaming audience... mmm perhaps that is what it is... a faked orgasm!!!

I am not sure I am following the trend of thought above?? I think it is easy for both men and women to get carried away with their own importance in this and any other entertainment field, including sports, though again, we seem men as MUCH more outstanding and important in that area, too. I hate seeing that carried over into the dance.

I still believe an all male show would be the test of this. Would women really scream all the way through?? I cant believe this. It is easy when it is just one or two on an a female dominated programme. Has anyone seen any to tell us??

I was over in the other part of the forum where everyone was going on and on about what a TOTALLY PERFECT event Serkan sponsored and carried off. If a woman writes such a thing about female show, we often accuse her of glossing things over, that maybe the show was not actually perfect and that we must do honest critiques. No one has said such a thing in this case. It read as false as any other event where dancers go on and on about their own perfection, without looking at the realties of the situation. I heard that it was rather weird at the one in New York recently, though no one will admit that in public. It was all just roses in both places. Now, how often does ANY show come off with all dancers dancing perfectly, everyone doing everything just right, etc? Why should we not critique all male shows with just as much honesty as we would any other show?
I also see where now, as I predicted, there is going to be a rash of such shows as this all male review goes on tour. I remember when I was thought paranoid a couple of weeks ago because it was "just one show". It will be interesting to see how long it takes us to catch on to the fact that men are leaving women out every time they do an all male show.


By the way, no one screamed or whooped at Shafeek but they did become more animated in their clapping etc.
[/QUOTE]

It is like I said above, it goes far deeper than just the sreaming and will manifest in many ways.

Regards,
A'isha
 

Caroline_afifi

New member
Dear Caroline,




Yes, and this happens rather often, does it not? Men are treated specially just because they are men. Women have done this for eons, not just for belly dance, but for all kinds of things. It is part of the way in which, being physically weaker, we as a species survived, as it helped women assure that we and our babies would be taken care of. The point is, it is not just that women scream for men and act like they are better than women when they are not. It is the whole psychology of the thing that is popping up as a trend in the dance scene.

If this is the case, why should men who are the small minotity be punished?
Surely it is about re-educating the female audience? Suely it is about having the discussion on an open forum like this to make women think twice before jioning in the the screaming. I think Khanjar metioned about pack mentality.
Do women do this at the ballet? I think not and those men wear tights and have rather large 'lunch boxes' on display.




I am not sure I am following the trend of thought above?? I think it is easy for both men and women to get carried away with their own importance in this and any other entertainment field, including sports, though again, we seem men as MUCH more outstanding and important in that area, too. I hate seeing that carried over into the dance.

Sorry. I was reffering to both men and women being appreciated for their art rather than both men and women being appreciated for egotistical dispalys.
Do women feel men want to hear screaming as a sort of appreciation like a faked orgasm?

I
was over in the other part of the forum where everyone was going on and on about what a TOTALLY PERFECT event Serkan sponsored and carried off. If a woman writes such a thing about female show, we often accuse her of glossing things over, that maybe the show was not actually perfect and that we must do honest critiques. No one has said such a thing in this case. It read as false as any other event where dancers go on and on about their own perfection, without looking at the realties of the situation. I heard that it was rather weird at the one in New York recently, though no one will admit that in public. It was all just roses in both places. Now, how often does ANY show come off with all dancers dancing perfectly, everyone doing everything just right, etc? Why should we not critique all male shows with just as much honesty as we would any other show?
I also see where now, as I predicted, there is going to be a rash of such shows as this all male review goes on tour. I remember when I was thought paranoid a couple of weeks ago because it was "just one show". It will be interesting to see how long it takes us to catch on to the fact that men are leaving women out every time they do an all male show.

mmm... I doubt perfection is always achieved and this is highly subjective. I very rarely see a full show that caters for my taste throughout.
Men do dance differently and can be apprecaited on different levels as women are. I still dont think there are enough men around to worry about a rash of all male shows. If this happens then they may use men who dont quite make the grade so the criticism will come for them too. Not all men are great dancers, but many are.
I would rather see men dancing on a stage than holding a weapon on a battle field. I feel much less threatend by this.

It is like I said above, it goes far deeper than just the sreaming and will manifest in many ways.
Regards,
A'isha[/QUOTE]

Could you expand a little on the last point?
thanks
 

khanjar

New member
Dear A'isha

From my OP which you took issue with;

.....Of course this may not work for some other males, as there are some who love their existing ways, and are totally confident in that, perhaps it is these people, who have absolute love for themselves and their take on masculinity, nothing left to offer another. I have known some of these people, what I call the caveman type, they are happier around their own sex and their relationships with women do not last, as they see women as aliens, not people. Surely most of us can move on a bit now......

Use of the words some , perhaps and most does not mean an absolute, nor does it mean it applies to all, and was written as a possible extreme.

As to the ladies here who have reported the fact that they had been likened to whores for their interest, that, I can only speculate and there sympathize, as I have not been here that long nor have I had a great a reading of past postings, perhaps I should before taking issue with what I understand from my daily life is not the case that I have heard.

......Depends on the job. My husband has often had to take up the slack when he works with females because they are not as strong as he is. They could do the job, but not without more help than a man would need. I resent that my husband has to work harder because someone else can not, yet they are paid the same as he is. By the way, he is not a very big man, being 5'8" and weighing in at about a 140 pounds, but he is way stronger than women his size. However, there are female welders on his job that can weld circles around many of the men......

Men like women come in all shapes and sizes and therefore have different physical strengths.I am not of great physical strength in my upper body, as I was a cyclist and have what many call the T-rex physique, so, what jobs I have had, I sought jobs requiring light but skilled dexterity. I was in heavy industry, but I was a surveyor, where I was responsible for the 'dig here' mathematics and then later I repaired the delicate instruments used in aviation and medical fields. It was often I needed help from the stronger, I did not see this as a slight, nor did those that helped me feel themselves superior, we worked as a team, just as I suspect many others do in industry. My weight is also 140 lbs, but I am over six feet in height.Still, if the job in hand is done, it is done and that is all that matters to an employer, team work if it is there, is desireable as this fosters good working relations.

......Balance does not always mean that gender must be equally balanced in numbers. Sometimes this throws things off badly, bringing the wrong energy into the spirit of things. That's one reason why we do not see male/female soccer teams with names like, "The Bouquets", as opposed to names like "The
Falcons". The essence of the sport is about rugged competition, not discussing it until we come to an equitable things where we both can win. The essence of the sport is masculine, even when female teams play it. Humans are the only animals who keep insisting that there are only activities, not male/ female ones. Take a little look into the animal kingdom and you see plenty of gender specific activity
.....

We all have our own definitions of balance, to me, it is not numbers being equal, but recognition of each other as being capable, numbers may then be free to rise or fall as is natural.No bar should be put upon either sex that is not biological in nature. The animal kingdom I do observe, as what we are as humans bears much resemblance, except we are in many ways different from animals, we seem able to choose what we do in our lives.

.....I am sorry. I don't understand this response......

My wish for saying what I did was to explain that what is, and has been gender specific, need not carry on as if it is gospel, if there is a wish for change, then change. If some would like to keep things gender specific, then it is possible all things might again become gender specific and with that some of the practices which are best left in the past. I as a male wish not to see a partner as property.


......NO, I said a lot of men want to be treated as if men deserve special treatment. I disagree with that entirely. I have heard men act as if they have such a much harder time being accepted than women do, but they are wrong. The "ideal" belly dancer, according to the social expectation, is a dark haired female beauty with a georgeous figure who swoops around in a veil, with luscious breasts and large dark eyes and a temptress's smile. Well, that is not a male, but it also isn't most dancers that I know, especiallly us older, fatter ones. We can't get work in clubs any more than men can......


I think here there are different levels of acceptance, males are not females and not all females are the mythical ideal. Belly dancer is not a term I think particularly endearing, one has a mental image of a 'belly' on it's own dancing. People are more than that although I understand where the term came from. Like with many things, it can be changed through education, ME or ME style dance is a better description. Perhaps through technology education can be possible in the subject of naming and acceptance.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Males, etc.

Dear Caroline,

I am not sure where the rest of the quote went, but I will try to respond to the whole thing.

RE punishing men: I am not sure why not wanting an all male show is considered to be punishing them. To me this kind of thing enforces the already obvious problem of women treating men as if they are more special than women. I have spent my life supporting men in dance at all levels. I have sponsored men to star in 3 of my last 7 shows and teach workshops. I also have had them act and dance in other shows in the last few years, been teaching them and learning from them and working with them and sponsoring them for the last 34 years. I no longer feel good about doing that now that they are excluding women. I will make it a point not to sponsor either men or women who are supporting all male events. Maybe they could care less about my tiny little opinion, but I will not be hypocritical about it. My money is where my mouth is. This is the only power that I have in this situation.

mmm... I doubt perfection is always achieved and this is highly subjective. I very rarely see a full show that caters for my taste throughout.

Well then clearly you have not read about the totally perfect shows that all the men put on at the all male event of Serkan's. Everyone was perfect in every way, I read over in the other part of the forum. I am feeling a little sarcastic about that because if anyone said that about a female show, we would be all over them for not giving a true critique of the event, yet not one person is willing to do that here, nearly as I can tell.


Men do dance differently and can be apprecaited on different levels as women are. I still dont think there are enough men around to worry about a rash of all male shows.

I remember hearing that about both the fusion issue and about the quality of dance of the BDSS and the effect it would have on belly dance. Not too many years later both of these problems have blossomed into absolute pandemics. We have Scottish bellydance and belly dance on stilts and with barbs in peoples backs and goodness knows what else going on out there in the name of bellydance. I am not that far sighted and I am surely not the only one who can see where this newest trend is headed. It is not the number of men, but the number of all male shows that will have the effect, and that effect will not be any more positive than the others. It sounds like many of them planned for the very near future.


[
QUOTE]If this happens then they may use men who dont quite make the grade so the criticism will come for them too. Not all men are great dancers, but many are.


I could say the same about women. I could also say that being politically correct in either case has not done the dance any favors.


I would rather see men dancing on a stage than holding a weapon on a battle field. I feel much less threatend by this.


There is a LOT of room between not doing all males shows or having a more egalitarian response to male dancers and having them march off to war. One has little to do with the other. I am not threatened by men dancing either, but I surely would not expect them get applause merely for being men, or to exclude women from dancing in their shows.



Could you expand a little on the last point?
thanks
[/QUOTE]

I think the last point was about the pathology of many women's responses to males belly dancing going beyond screaming and yelling. It manifests in many ways. You pointed out one yourself, where the women in the audience clapped louder for the male than for the females in the show. What message does this send? That somehow, even though he may not be a better dancer, the male is superior to the females on some level, in these womens' minds. I have seen women in workshops go out of their way to get attention from the male instructor, where they do not do the same with females. I once saw a woman slide sensuously out of her belt and bend over to pick it up off the floor,all for the benefit of the male instructor. He ate it up rather than responding as if she was out of line. I have seen men act like total mysogynists and women put up with it, both on stage and in class. One male instructor tried to bully me one time. When I told him to knock it off, the women in the room acted like I was at fault. When he apologized to me after my show, he did THAT in complete privacy where no one could see him do it. This is not a problem that men are creating all by themselves, but they are usually not trying to do anything to stop it either. The all male show is one more way of setting themselves apart from us, and this leads to problems, not solutions. When women act out as if men were so much more important than women it adds to the problem but curing it is not going to happen through excluding us..
Regards,
A'isha
 
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khanjar

New member
A'isha, I agree with you on that one, all male shows is not the way forward, as is all female shows. Shows yes, but not with female dancers or male dancers, just dancers who might happen to be male or female. Dancers who can be seen on their ability to dance and there entertain others.

What you describe as a woman using her natural abilities to attract a male, is clearly of the animal kingdom, she wanted attention and she got it, thus proving we are really just animals. But though we are animalistic in ways, we have the ability to turn that side off when it is not wanted or needed.

Unless someone is specifically seeking a mate, favour or just playing games, a dance class is not the place for it from either sex.
 

khanjar

New member
Interesting point about the difference between ballet and ME dance and audience reaction.

Ballet has always been what has been considered to be a cultured performance where at one time,only the wealthier patrons could see, and so with this, it fostered a reserved level of applause.

Me style dance has been more of a show that the not so wealthy could see and so different levels of applause were tolerated.

Maybe it is this, coupled with the fact that males who dance in the western world were in the past scarce if not non existent and now as things have changed, males are seen as a novelty.

Novelties as we know attract attention.
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Dance

Dear Khanjar

A'isha, I agree with you on that one, all male shows is not the way forward, as is all female shows. Shows yes, but not with female dancers or male dancers, just dancers who might happen to be male or female. Dancers who can be seen on their ability to dance and there entertain others.

THERE YOU GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I LOVE the clarity and truth of that above. It is how it should be. When we start looking at dancers on the strength of their gender alone, we are doing the dance itself harm.



[
QUOTE]What you describe as a woman using her natural abilities to attract a male, is clearly of the animal kingdom, she wanted attention and she got it, thus proving we are really just animals. But though we are animalistic in ways, we have the ability to turn that side off when it is not wanted or needed.
Unless someone is specifically seeking a mate, favour or just playing games, a dance class is not the place for it from either sex.


And yet, the male female thing is played out in every aspect of our lives, the dance arena included. I was not really offended by that, but I was aware that it was something that both parties bought into. I am off to give you Rep points for so clearly understanding one of my main points as far as us respecting dancers for their ability to dance, not for them being male or female. This is my real problem with all male shows at the base of it all. It is yet another way to single out males and make them special instead of just having them be a dancer like the rest of us.
Regards,
A'isha
 
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khanjar

New member
Thank you for your kind comments, I do understand where to me equality should exist, but when I suggested males be given a push so to speak, I was saying this from my point of view as a learner, not a dancer. Once a male is in, then it is up to them to accomplish what they desire, if they desire.

This ATS class I have found so far I have found it consists of twenty women from my college, and a learner who is to go to the next class, my friend who believed she was too old to do something like this.

I can be persistent too, I found out the details and have emailed the 'tribe', my friend is now going and she can't wait to go, perhaps myself next.

I will support her, as she supports me, just things friends do for each other.

(she loved Tarik's videos)
 

Farasha Hanem

New member
You may understand from how I write, I am still wary of this, not me and what I want to do, but wary at stepping on toes and creating ill feeling, I am not of the leering brigade but genuinely interested and I wish to project that.

I wish I had advice to offer you, but sadly, I can't think of anything to say that would help you. :( All I can do is offer you my empathy, and a big hug. *huggles*

Perhaps, though, you might try doing what I'm doing until our classes start back up. Approach one or more of your classmates you trust or that you have a rapport with, and ask if you can get together to practice in one another's homes. :D Of course, you might find that to be difficult if you have doubts about asking, but hey, it never hurts to try. :) In the meantime, there are some wonderful instructional DVD's to kind of help tie you over until your class starts back up in the fall :D
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
All male nyc show

Nothing out of the ordinary. Mohamed Shahin opened with a Nubian dance and gave a brief description of what it was. Next up Julian, who is not a middle Eastern dancer. He did a middle eastern inspired number that was fun, not spectacular, but entertaining and fun to watch. Next was Mark. It was explained he would open with an Oriental followed by a Lebanese Raks al Assaya. The crowd enjoyed both his dances, his assaya was interesting, looked like a cross of Baladi and Debke. Next was myself. I did three numbers improvised to the band and can't for the life of me remember what the songs were, followed by an unplanned drum solo. Mohamed did a cane dance which was well received and I opened with a Shabbi piece followed by an up beat pop song and I explained what I did after.

No one was over reacting. Each performer was enjoyed for what they did. It was a really good show because everyone was different , but what really made it was the energy of the crowd overall. It was just very warm, friendly and accepting. If anyone felt it was weird.....???? What was weird about it? It was just a group of people who were enjoying each other's company. No one was being fussed over, having their butts kissed or put on a pedestal. No one was treating the women like sex objects or patronizing them. It was just a really fun unpretentious night with good energy where everyone was appreciated. My only regret was that Kaeshi, (who was in drag and totally looked like my friend Nahiko) didn't dance. I love to watch her and so I was disappointed. If anyone feels it was "weird", they should speak honestly and openly about it instead of being vague.
 
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