No hope

[Aisha Azar]

Males

I Think you will be never understand right???
I try to talk to you gentel way but You never listen or you have a problem to understand.
You can think about what you want.But I'll not play your game.I HAVE ENOUGH OF YOUR WAY OF THINKING!! I told you I never,ever against to female dancers.I give you all this explanations but you never understand.
Continue your way.
Good bless you!!!or what ever!!

Right back at you. I understand WAY more than you think. I do not agree that it is right to have all male shows, and that is what makes people upset. I am supposed to be a good little sheep and follow the politically correct trend and not give a thought to how this kind of imbalance affects the world of dance in the long or short term. You have the gall to act like I am the one who is doing something to designate gender as a devisive element in the dance when it is not ME who had an all one gender show, now is it? I not only can think what I want, I, like everyone else on this forum have right to SAY what I want as well.
And God bless you, or whatever, too.

 

[Male Belly Dancer SERKAN]

Hahahaa...Just I start to feel sory for you!!You are soo poor.I don't know what happend in your past with male dancers but urgently you need some help(professional one!!!)
This is my last reply to you.Don't push me soo far!!!
I try to keep myself in polite/kind way.But don't loose this chance!!
I wish one day you can get peace in your mind.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Males

Hahahaa...Just I start to feel sory for you!!You are soo poor.I don't know what happend in your past with male dancers but urgently you need some help(professional one!!!)
This is my last reply to you.Don't push me soo far!!!
I try to keep myself in polite/kind way.But don't loose this chance!!
I wish one day you can get peace in your mind.

And I hope one day you will quit trying to play amateur psychologist and stick to the subject at hand, so neither one of us is getting our wish. And again with the threats..... Big Man.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

You know, this is getting to be a round robin argument, so I am done. If no one wants to look at this in any light except how much men should do whatever they want because they have not had a fair shake, then I really can't change anyone's mind or make them see the bigger picture. It seems to me that a lot of women are buying into a mythology that the men have it rougher than we do when it is not really true. But I can guarantee that more shows are on the way in which women will be excluded. This is not a one time thing.
Regards,
A'isha
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear forum:

I think you are all aware of the fact by now that indeed this will not be the last all male show simply because IT WAS NOT THE FIRST. All male shows have been happening in Europe for at least 10 yrs now, maybe even longer.
What harm has been done? None. Some people persist in trying to find problems where they do not exist and I think you can all see this. There's only one person here who feels threatened by something which has no impact on anything. If there is anyone who shares a similar view besides her, can you tell us how the dance has been hurt by all male shows in the past 10yrs? I don't see a problem since the people who present them also present mixed shows and all female shows. I think some people have had bad experiences with certain individuals and are now making all male dancers out to be a potential threat. We have the right to dance.... as long as we do not present ourselves as men. If we are effeminate, that's just fine and dandy, but if we are men, or bring that which is natural to us to the dance that's a problem.

There is a huge difference between being masculine, manly and being an obnoxious macho Sh**head. I find it insulting and the fact that said person is so totally unwilling to see the other side of the situation and has gone out of her way to insult male dancers on this forum for no reason is why I have lost all the respect for her that I once had. For the rest of you, I hope your silence only means you are tired of the mess and see no need to join in a futile merry go round ride, but that you do indeed understand that we are not against you in any way, nor do we want to control, belittle, or dominate you in any way. And that if you do encounter individuals who are indeed too full of themselves, you will be mature and intelligent enough to realize that person does not speak, nor represent all of us and that you will judge us as individuals based on our actions.

 

[Zorba]

Ok, Ok - as the "official" moderator of the male dancer's forum, can I please ask for a bit of civility here? When I start getting PMs about a thread, its time to step in. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, esp. since I too can get quite passionate on the subject!

I think we've all said enough of our respective positions on the suject of single-gender shows! Let's all help poor Khanjar find a teacher shall we? That *was* the original idea of this particular thread...

Respectfully,

-Zorba

 

[lizaj]

Before you do move on, may I spring to the defence of middle aged ( or even senior in my case)women.
We do not all get our (big?)knickers in a twist over men -only shows or men joining us in this dance..after all ,we long ago threw them at Tom Jones

 

[Caroline_afifi]

was he that bad!!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Aisha Azar]

Civility

Ok, Ok - as the "official" moderator of the male dancer's forum, can I please ask for a bit of civility here? When I start getting PMs about a thread, its time to step in. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, esp. since I too can get quite passionate on the subject!

I think we've all said enough of our respective positions on the suject of single-gender shows! Let's all help poor Khanjar find a teacher shall we? That *was* the original idea of this particular thread...

Respectfully,

-Zorba

Dear Zorba,
I believe the discussion WAS civil until Serkan joined it. I will not take blame for being uncivil when I have gone above and beyond the call of duty in that area. I will not be threatened and treated like a pariah just because I do not believe in all male shows. I am entitled to an opinion also, whether or not it meshes with the majority's, and you know I go out of my way to be polite about it, do not call names, try to pop analyze others, or act out in those kinds of ways. I thought that Caroline and I were having a very well thought out conversation and there is nothing to be called on the carpet for in that.
I think there are times when fingers do indeed need to be pointed. As a moderator, I have done it a time or two out of necessity.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Zorba]

A'isha, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. I'm just asking EVERYONE to tone it down a little - and I'm certainly not "calling anyone on the carpet". Indeed, in your case you were saying that this conversation was going in circles - which it was.

 

[Salome]

I had not dropped in on this thread till now. Zorba is doing what is needed when a hot topic gets to hot, trying to bring the tension level down, cool things off a bit and steer it back on topic.

 

[Morocco]

And there is Afrah in Devon and she is hosting Tarik Next year!

She's actually hosting both of us & "Celebrate Dance" is held at the Toorak Hotel in Torquay (where, in addition to many fine classes & 2 great shows, the *food* is really great & 2 meals a day are included!). You coming???

I am the one who taught Tarik *&* Sergio (RIP) & several other male dancers, when even the male *teachers* in New York City weren't teaching men. which is beyond ludicrous since in Egypt & Turkey, the men get to dance socially far more than the women.

It's the SAME MOVEMENT VOCABULARY - it's just that we each bring our own individual "essences" (as it were) to it & no two bodies, even doing the same movements, ever look exactly the same. Thank God.

Aunt Rocky

P.S. Why didn't you come & say hello at Raks Britannia??

 

[Morocco]

On Friday night at Raqs B, Ozgen who is a really nice guy and great entertainer performed his piece. Ok, he removed his tight shirt to reveal his bare midriff etc. but the women shrieked and wooped so much through his dance he had to signal to them to shush.

If this happend whilst a woman was dancing for an audience of men, everyone would be having a real go at the men and calling them for everything. Some women need to get a serious grip of themselves and stop whining about the behaviour of men whilst imitating them at their worst.

That IS what happened, but it was done in fun & taken in fun by all concerned. I asked him what that rope stuff was about. Totally other than what I thought, thank Heavens! But it was still a bit much.

However, I think that sort of behavior is overboard coming from whichever sex & totally a showoff to the other audience members. More like "The Full Monty". Remind me to tell you about the time I took a friend to see the Chippendale's (at her request) for her birthday.

I have NEVER been so embarrassed in my life, as I was at the horrendous behavior of my fellow females at that Chippendale show. YUCK!

Morocco

 

[Morocco]

Interesting point about the difference between ballet and ME dance and audience reaction.

Ballet has always been what has been considered to be a cultured performance where at one time,only the wealthier patrons could see, and so with this, it fostered a reserved level of applause.

Me style dance has been more of a show that the not so wealthy could see and so different levels of applause were tolerated.

Actually, NOT true. In Degas' day, ballet dancers were considered "demimondaines" - polite for whore.

It took Anna Pavlova to enchant the world, then Diaghilev's "Ballet Russes" to shock it, but finally, the Cold War & Ballanchine's well-funded (Lincoln Kirsten) ballet company to raise ballet to where it is today.

However, ONLY in the Basquelands of its origins was it a folk dance done & enjoyed by the "common folk", the way Raks still is today.

Maybe it is this, coupled with the fact that males who dance in the western world were in the past scarce if not non existent and now as things have changed, males are seen as a novelty.

Novelties as we know attract attention.

Exactly! *Here* in the West - not *there* ...

Morocco
JUST back from Blackpool, UK &
who leaves for Egypt & Turkey in a couple of days.
Ah, the joys of continual jetlag. NOT!

 

[Morocco]

I would rather see men dancing on a stage than holding a weapon on a battle field. I feel much less threatend by this.

Regards,
A'isha

AMEN! Now somebody get that idiot Twig & Chenazi into a dance class - that stupid tapdance sucked bigtime!

Aunt Rocky

 

[Aisha Azar]

Quote

AMEN! Now somebody get that idiot Twig & Chenazi into a dance class - that stupid tapdance sucked bigtime!

Aunt Rocky

Dearest M,
That quote was by Caroline, but my name ended up in there somehow. My response was that one does not offset the other. There are many men who dance AND go to war. There are also many men who dance during war. We need to see this aspect of dance from a male perspective a little bit, in order to get the whole picture. Women are too used to seeing dance from a place of being this nice thing that we do on stage. Historically, men have not always seen it that way. There are many cultures that have war dances and they are certainly prevalent in the Middle East.
Regards,
AA

 

[Caroline_afifi]

She's actually hosting both of us & "Celebrate Dance" is held at the Toorak Hotel in Torquay (where, in addition to many fine classes & 2 great shows, the *food* is really great & 2 meals a day are included!). You coming???

I am the one who taught Tarik *&* Sergio (RIP) & several other male dancers, when even the male *teachers* in New York City weren't teaching men. which is beyond ludicrous since in Egypt & Turkey, the men get to dance socially far more than the women.

It's the SAME MOVEMENT VOCABULARY - it's just that we each bring our own individual "essences" (as it were) to it & no two bodies, even doing the same movements, ever look exactly the same. Thank God.

Aunt Rocky


P.S. Why didn't you come & say hello at Raks Britannia??

Hi Rocky,
Yes I know you are going to Devon too, but Afrah was metioned as a teacher who actively supports men so Tarik was relevant to the discussion at this time.
I was sorry not to see you!
I was stuck at the stage for all of Friday night and 6 hours on Saturday, by the evening I was ready to hide in a darkend corner and missed the show. I was at the stage again all Sunday. This was what I was contracated to do and had very little time to move around.
Did you see me at all? I didnt see you even for a second in passing!!

As for Ozgen, I said he was an entertainer and it was fun, but when he did the 'shush' thing I thought he was offended at all the whooping or something.

PS I will try to see you at Ahlan, I am staying with Sara.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Dearest M,
That quote was by Caroline, but my name ended up in there somehow. My response was that one does not offset the other. There are many men who dance AND go to war. There are also many men who dance during war. We need to see this aspect of dance from a male perspective a little bit, in order to get the whole picture. Women are too used to seeing dance from a place of being this nice thing that we do on stage. Historically, men have not always seen it that way. There are many cultures that have war dances and they are certainly prevalent in the Middle East.
Regards,
AA

Historically you are totally right and in modern day terms, the hip hop and gang scene can be pretty aggressive too.

However a man with a stick doing hip drops? mmm:think:

I dont think MED would be the chosen art for war mongerers but if you know different please tell!!

 

[Aniseteph]

As for Ozgen, I said he was an entertainer and it was fun, but when he did the 'shush' thing I thought he was offended at all the whooping or something.

I may be wrong but I think it's part of the act. If he doesn't like the response I am sure he's smart enough to have worked out why it happens by now, and tone things down a bit.

(My inner dirty old woman says noooooooo don't do that! he he he )

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I may be wrong but I think it's part of the act. If he doesn't like the response I am sure he's smart enough to have worked out why it happens by now, and tone things down a bit.

(My inner dirty old woman says noooooooo don't do that! he he he )

Keep your under garments firmly in place :lol:

I would see knicker chucking as some form of punishment myself but hey ho.

ps
Me being daft didnt realise the 'shush' was part of the routine until Zorba mentioned it! whats this about? working women up into a frenzy then cooling them down again... ooh er mrs, no wonder the drawers come off. :lol:

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance

Historically you are totally right and in modern day terms, the hip hop and gang scene can be pretty aggressive too.

However a man with a stick doing hip drops? mmm:think:

I dont think MED would be the chosen art for war mongerers but if you know different please tell!!

Dear Caroline,
Actually, I can name Ardeh where guns and swords are used and the original purpose was to get men revved up to fight, certain Debkes were the same, and some of the dances of the Algerians and Moroccans of which I do not know the names, if they have any, that are Middle Eastern and are war dances. Egyptian men with sticks doing hip drops was definitely about fighting, if you remember correctly. In historical context, the men doing those dances were war mongers, and many still are. You know enough about Middle Eastern dance to know its true.
And if we are talking about belly dance in particular, I have not seen so many men involved in belly dance acting particularly peaceful when challenged in recent days. I have even seen women get pretty physically unfriendly, for example in that one video of Fifi ABdou, where she pushes some poor guy out of her way. The world of dance can be just as violent as war, and that goes for many different kinds of dance. Read Gelsey Kirkland's book if you want to read about the lovely world of ballet. Dance is not all peace and light, and men do not behave as saints just because they dance.
Regards,
A'isha