Teachers' attitudes

[Aniseteph]

Hi all
I was just reading one of the articles linked on the home page (http://www.gildedserpent.com/art35/DeeDeeInterview.htm ) and was gobsmacked* by the reports of territorialism and controlling teachers.

... refuses to allow her students to attend.

OK it's probably just one side of a story, but it made me wonder whether any of you have experienced similar things. It just seems bizarre to me, trying to control what students do outside class. Control freakery, some sort of guru complex... or plain insecurity?

*translation for non-UK members = really quite surprised

 

[Gabi]

Verrrrry interestink, but stooopid, eh!

I hate competitive crap like that and yes, it caught my attention pretty quickly that some of the teachers (and not necessarily the better ones ) are very territorial while others will not tolerate badmouthing of others. I'll stick with the ones who don't play those games.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Oh yes I've heard of this type of behavior and was equally gobsmacked to see it happen to two top sponsors in the Dallas area. If you look closely in the article you can see in august each group was sponsoring workshops and contests within a week of each other!
From a personal aspect, one can't help to think that someone is literally out to get you and undermine what you work so hard to build. It's hard not to take it personally. Our school was for a long time the only studio geared toward bellydance. My teacher worked very hard to market, decorate and teach students. She even built up a strong network of other teachers and vendors around the country. If someone requested a bellydancer for an event, she would pass the gig onto dancers whether they were in the school or not.
There was a former student who is a good dancer with a lot of ambition, and my teacher would send gigs her way when her students were unavailable. As she built a reputation for herself, she decided to teach bellydance. Where did she decide to teach? In a community center located just around the corner from our school! My teacher was livid as she felt that she could have found a more suitable location elsewhere. This dancer eventually moved on to another location to teach. Just as she moved on, another dancer, began to rent space across the mall from our location! As I said, we have been here over 6 yrs. This teacher, even tried to get student lists and phone numbers from unsuspecting students leaving ouer school.
From our standpoint, it's hard not to think highly of these people as their sense of ethics is questionable. But our students are free to seek out other teachers as they see fit, but we do believe in protecting our intellectual property.

There have been times when we were "shut out" from attending seminars and performing in shows too. As much as it hurts to believe that bellydance sisterhood sometimes resemble the social politics of high school. Our teacher has been told not to attend so-and so's show, but we go anyway. I think it really should be up to the students to decide where they want to spend their money and leave the politics behind.
Yasmine

 

[Aisha Azar]

Teachers, etc.

Dear Group,
Unfortunately there are instructors out there who consider their students to be their property. They suffer from some real ownership issues. I wrote an article abut 20 years ago or so called, "The Student/Instructor Relationship in Middle Eastern Dance". (It may or may not be on my website... not sure right this minute.) One of the issues that I addressed is the problem "Ownership". Some teachers act as if students are their personal property, completely overlooking the fact that students are free agents and should be able to study with whomever they please. First loyalty should be to the learning of the dance and not to an instructor, any more than one would have loyalty to their math instructor. We study with different instructors to learn different things and teachers have to be very careful not to get possessive.

Re: sponsoring events. My dance company sponsors two events a year. We have tried to correlate our events with what else is going on the community and have even sent out letters stating that we will not have more than two events a year, will not have them in the months where other groups have establsihed their events and will try to work with the community. We have stated that we will confine our events to March and october of every year. Yet, one of my ex-students does everything she can to try to have an event the week before ours every single year. ther eis no way to fight her except to keep on keeping on and to do what we can to let her know we will not put up with it.

Regards,
A'isha

 

[Suhad]

There's a teacher in the Phoenix area who is like this; her students are not even allowed to use movements for student recitals that have not been taught in her classes yet, let alone take workshops from anyone else!

I personally really don't understand that attitude. I agree with previous posters; students are not slaves, indentured servants, or property of any sort -- intellectual or otherwise. I take workshops and classes from everyone I can that I think may have something to offer me. I want to be the best dancer I can be, and limiting myself to one instructor limits what I can achieve.

 

[MiamiDancer]

Wow...that's really suprising! My teacher is phenomenal, and she encourages us to attend other's classes and seminars!

 

[Mouse]

That kind of attitude is such a shame. Thankfully I can't imagine what that would be like. There is very much a bellydance community where I am. We are always being told of events, haflas, markets etc that are being run by other dance teachers and are encouraged to go, attend and have fun - quite often there will even be guest dancers from other dance schools performing at these events.

 

[Aniseteph]

There's a teacher in the Phoenix area who is like this; her students are not even allowed to use movements for student recitals that have not been taught in her classes yet, let alone take workshops from anyone else! .

Who do these people think they are? I'd love to hear the reasoning behind this sort of attitude. Perhaps she thinks it will reflect badly on her if they do a movement "wrong". IMO it's the attitude that counts in a student performance - I'd much rather see ropey hip drops and dodgy shimmies done with enthusiasm and enjoyment of the music than po-faced technical perfection.

In my experience a true teacher in any field is really pleased if you are interested and inspired enough to want to take it further - they want to pass on their love for their subject as much as how to do it. Stopping students going "outside" implies a monumental ego to me - "I'm teaching you right and no one else has anything to offer". Or maybe it's just insecurity and she wants to keep them "down" so they won't be competition for her. Neither attitude looks nice.

 

[elle21]

I was also gobsmacked, and am relieved it's not this bad in the UK - although I do feel it's a pity that UK dancers don't work together more, as we're such a small community and might not even be aware of someone teaching or holding an event just down the road!

At the risk of turning a bit gooey and 'yay sisterhood', we really do all benefit when we collaborate, rather try to fragment a community that's too small to fragment. If not for any idealisic reasons, basic pragmatism: how can people afford to sponsor workshops for great dancers if only a handful of people show up, for example? the only people who benefit from playground politics are the ones who lack the basic ability in the first place - under a 'free market' they know they would lose their students.

It's good when this sort of behaviour is exposed so people realise what goes on 'behind the scenes'. that said, however, we've only been given one side of the story and I'd be curious to hear the other side(s) before completely condemming the other parties (maybe there's some perfectly good reason for such seemingly childish nasty antics I'm struggling, but I'm trying!)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Attitudes, etc.

Dear Elle,
Teachers' attitudes can develop for any number of reasons. I was pretty unhappy about my ex-student who insists on having events the week before mine, for example. She was also saturating the market to the point where no events were being well attneded. I think she learned her lesson on that one, because she brought some VERY famous people and had very low turn-outs for her events because there was just too much going on, which meant she probably went into debt. She has slowed way down now.
Marketing and competion is one reason why teachers refuse to tell people about events that they are not involved in. Ego is another, for example, if THEY were not invited to dance in the show, they might not want to tell students about it. Insecurity is another reason and probably the most prevalent.
My feeling about it is that no teacher has the right to withold ANY information about events from their class or tell anyone they can't go, etc. However, if any student approaches me and asks what I think of someone that someone else is sponsoring, I will tell them what I think of the sponsored instructor, for good or bad, and tell them why I think what I do. But this is not something I do in class, only in private. Sometimes it IS difficult not to give an opinion in class because it is easy for people to assume that since I am handing out information that I automatically think the event will be worthwhile ...which is not always the case...
Regards,
A'isha

 

[elle21]

Yes, it's sad when egos and economics turn something ugly!

So your ex student must have ended up worse off for staging events so close to yours - a simply phone call, or just a little bit of research on her part, would have saved both of you from potentially losing out, it's sad really! It's also not fair on prospective "customers", who might want to attend both but can't afford to spend so much in such a short space of time, or give up that much time, etc. And it's a real shame for the dancer who is running the workshop. Everyone loses out! Let's hope your ex-student has learnt that lesson and got over it!

As for the ego element, I think there's nothing uglier than a bellydancer with a big head, it seeps through into the dance and looks awful. But as an event sponsor, it's not about being a prima donna, it's about being a business woman. And there's no room for "awww, but she didn't pick me to be in her gang, so I'm not gunna talk to her anymore". Ugh, grow up!

I actually think it's part of the role of the teacher to encourage their students to go to other events and let them know what's going on. What they do with that info is up to them. But it's good you don't withold your opinion when asked. It can be hard to choose what to go to and what to leave out, without a more experienced guide.

 

[Yshka]

I think this happens all over the place, more or less.

I've heard similar stories from teachers around here, who dismissed their students from there classes after they had started teaching for themselves, told students not to attend any workshops or classes by other teachers, and some even spreading false rumours about other teachers in the area. .

My teacher worked very hard to market, decorate and teach students. She even built up a strong network of other teachers and vendors around the country. If someone requested a bellydancer for an event, she would pass the gig onto dancers whether they were in the school or not.

My teacher works in a similar way. She feels bad about the competition in the dance community and really works hard to set herself apart from all that, by creating a network of students and dancers who feel the same way and don't mind informing eachother about their workshops, venues, classes, working together, etc.. IMO this is wonderful and I admire her greatly for standing up and not giving in to competitive behavior around.

I feel competition in the dance community is totally useless. If a teacher act overtly territorial or possessive -though this might cause some conflicts in the local dance community involved at that time- eventually this will turn against him/her at some point (hopefully anyway) and only harm those teachers themselves.

Useless...

 

[Aisha Azar]

Teachers, etc.

Dear Yshka,
I think there is a difference between healthy and unhealthy conpetition. Healthy competition is just one of the elements that keeps us on our toes, keeps us learning and keeps us wanting to make sure that we put on quality shows.
Unhealthy competition is when we put down other dancers and think it helps us to look better in some way. Or when we try to beat out the other guy by having events right before their's or when we are totally jealous of others and let it get the best of us. Or when we lie about our qualifications, which I think happens more often than we might be aware.
Competition can be a good tool as well as a detriment, if it is understood in terms of good business practices as opposed to ugly ones.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Yshka]

I think there is a difference between healthy and unhealthy conpetition. Healthy competition is just one of the elements that keeps us on our toes, keeps us learning and keeps us wanting to make sure that we put on quality shows.

Dear A'isha,

I think you are very right on this (I didn't refer to this yet, only to it's negative side).
There is ofcourse also the part where competition makes us better dancers. This is important for we will keep trying to be better dancers, keep learning and giving all the best that we can to fellow dancers, the public and -as teachers- to the students.

Now this type of competition is definitely allowed

 

[Hadassah]

I think this sort of stuff happens in most communities, but it doesn't make it nice or fair. I try honestly to say nice things about anyone that I can. I think nothing makes a teacher look more insecure and "little" than belittling others or undermining shows, workshops etc. Sometimes it's like "Bring it On" of bellydance, instead of cheerleading. It's dumb. I will take from whomever I want to take lessons from. My teacher has never told me I couldn't. She has her favorite teachers/dancers, for sure. But To deny the student a chance to grow? That's just bogus. If a teacher cannot embrace her protege's attempts at finding her potential, then maybe she should no longer mentor.

In a dance form where competition is always present, whether admitted or not, there are friendly, and unfriendly rules of engagement. And a mature person can see other dancer's strong points, as well as the areas in which they may be lacking. After all, we have room to grow, each and every one of us. And we need each other, because ME dance has always been a community. Our little niche in a world that doesn't understand what we love, and we must educate the public in a way that honors that rich heritage.

 

[Suhad]

In a dance form where competition is always present, whether admitted or not, there are friendly, and unfriendly rules of engagement. And a mature person can see other dancer's strong points, as well as the areas in which they may be lacking. After all, we have room to grow, each and every one of us. And we need each other, because ME dance has always been a community.

So very true! I may not like the stylings of each and every dancer in my community but they may very well have something of value to offer -- for instance, a certain dancer may not have very strong overall styling but she has killer arms, or another dancer has really great hip movements. I'm not to the point where I have anything of real value to offer the community but I definitely try to give credit where credit is due, take good lessons wherever I can get them, and make sure I'm a good community member here in my little neck of the woods.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Teachers, etc

Dear Suhad,
You may feel that you have "nothing of real value" to offer the community yet, but students are one of the most valuable assets to the community. They are the main reason events exist at all. As has been said, belly dance is a niche market and we need the support of our students in order to survive, for the most part. Although I believe there are teachers in the community who are doing more harm than good in it as far as what they are offering, I never feel this way about students. Students are what keeps the blood pumping through the heart, so to speak, because without them, we are a very small community indeed. Students make us grow and thrive on many different levels.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Lydia]

teachers attitudes

what about this then and my attitude...i hade a student last year in class she was brazilian and came from a school in sao paulo,she wanted to perform she said ,and i told her,,ok let,s see what you can do and what i can do for you....but i did not found her good enough in fact far from that...so i told her in a nice way that she needed to be patient and study more before going out....what she did,but i did not feel she progressed a lot even i know that she was trying hard...she just did not have it....so i spend a lot of time to give her extra info and helped with choreo enz...beside her normal classes,Now i realy liked her as a person and was realy trying hard to get to the point wher she wanted to go..in this time i pushed to hard (i geuss) and when she was almost there,i even took her with me put her next to my on stage so she would learn faster....but when she was almost there she brook down,told me she can not take the pressure...i was completly shocked...i was under the impression that i was doing her a favour by beeing strickt and making her a good dancer ,not a cheapy one that just shows her body...and she told me on the same day ,that she found another teacher that could make her perform already and she was gonna go there...she said i dont need to be perfect its fine as it is....i told her ok sweety you know what is best for you,,,and she went...she came back after a few months almost crying and wanted to comeback to class the other teacher had a big argument with her and told her not to come back ....i said i never asked you to leave ,,,so please welcome,,,she came 1 class and she did not come back ...now she stopped all together...it did never happen to me that a student react like this and i was realy upset...i know i hade the best in mind ,but i think she just was thinking like some people are writing her ,,my teacher has a attitude....the problem is for me here there are so many cheap clubs and places i want the girls to be good before they go out,so it will able them to work in a good place...perhaps my attitude on that is not so good?? happy dancing lydia

 

[Aniseteph]

....i told her ok sweety you know what is best for you,,,and she went...she came back after a few months almost crying and wanted to comeback to class the other teacher had a big argument with her and told her not to come back ....i said i never asked you to leave ,,,so please welcome,,,

Seems to me you have a lovely attitude Lydia - you want the best for your students, you let them make their own decisions and welcome them back when it has all gone wrong. What more can you do? If she didn't feel she could continue it's a shame but it sounds like she is the one with the issues to resolve - what she wants to achieve, and finding a teacher who fits with that, if it's possible.

Oh, and thanks A'isha for the nice words about us students - I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy inside . Hold on while I write a cheque out to go to some more workshops (see, it works!)

 

[TribalDancer]

While I really appreciate the conversation that has flowered from this article, does no one else have a reaction to the tone of the article itself?! I found it to be a sad excuse for journalism--bascially someone sat down with one person, and let her vent about all the ways she was screwed over (from her perspective) by other dancers. No attempts to get the full story from the dancers who were NAMED OUTRIGHT in the article (nevermind that the implied purpose of the article could have been served without naming specific names and locations, don't you think?). The whole thing reeked to me of the writer being a friend of the interviewee, and giving her a chance to call out her "enemies" in an "article".

A real journalist would have done this one of many other ways, including interviewing ALL the parties involved and forming a story around the idea that we all have our own agendas and sometimes they are at odds. It could have addressed the right and wrong way to handle these conflicts of interest, as well.

If it was meant to be an illustration of how things can go awry, the names did not have to be named the way they were. And if the purpose was to call these people out and damage their public credibility based on your one-sided view of a situation, why not just make out a personal $hit list and post it everywhere you can, instead of trying to lamely disguise it as a legitimate interview/article?

Again, I know these things happen, and sometimes there really is a very clear right side and wrong side. However, MOST often it is a case of she said-she said, where each has their own reasons (legitimate or not) for making the choices they did. And unfortunately, most people don't get info from the source, instead relying on an elaborate adult game of "telephone", where the truth about what was said and done is taken out of context by a third party, and passed on down the line until it reaches the ears of the person it concerns--it almost never is what was originally said or intended, and it helps no one to engage in this kind of gossip.

This article, a thinly veiled personal attack, got my hackles up more than the subject matter, to be honest.