Turkish style

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Kiraze

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We cannot forget the golden oldies

As Roman music you are mentioning rampi rampi but this is a very old example. Nowadays, no one dances with this music. There are alot of contemporary gypsy music.
Welcome to forum Ahmet! it is good to get a viewpoint from a person who really *is* Turkish and sees things sometimes differently ;)

However to say that no one dances with Rampi rampi is like saying that no one dances belly dance with Aziza or Inta Omri etc... that music is classic karsilama song and it needs still to be recognized and valued - even though there is lots of great contemporary music the old classics should never be forgotten (even if that means that us westerners are the ones that mostly treasure those golden oldies). And especially in the US and Germany for 2nd or 3rd generation Greek, Turk and even Armenian people these oldies are the ones that brings back the memories of the old mother land somewhere out there so also for that reason songs like Rampi rampi are important part of the repertoire of Turkish style dancers.

There people around giving gypsy dance lessons after taking 2-3 lessons themselves. Because of such people turkish gypsy dance is not thought properly. I hope those true lovers of dance are more selective from now on
Those teachers and dancers we have discussed here are definately the ones who "know their stuff" - maybe there can be some confusion about the terminology and maybe some of the style taught in West seems to be old fashioned or has changed during the years but it still mostly is good... and to get even some lessons of any kind of Turkish style is so rare that when some one is passionate about it then one cannot be too selective... hopefully there will come a day when Turkish style is as valued and as common as Egyptian so there would be much more selection to choose from.
 
Elizabeth Artemis Mourat has just published a new article on Turkish Oriental Dance.

Here is the link: What is Turkish dance?
Thanks Cerise Janan, Thanks for posting the link. I just Artemis' article and she is truly a gifted and intelligent woman. I can't wait foe her book to be published. Even if one isn't interested in Turkish style, it doesn't hurt to learn the dance from such a foremost authority.
Thanks
Yasmine
 

Kiraze

New member
Oh Super Fun!!! That's the kind of pure joy and abandonment I wish we could always bring to the dance and ummmm, about those two guys in the second, I have never seen such fast crisp shoulder shimmies *WoW*
This is the style most of the Turks dance in central Turkey (Ankara & Yozgat especially) - I like this music/dance style called Misket as it is so relaxed but at least those ladies on the clips did not show much joy in their dance... obviously those clips were from some Pavyon in Ankara and well to say it nicely those ladies are working there and not as dancers (about role of the köceks I am not so sure)... and Pavyons in Turkey are definately not the places where western visitors should go (at least not without local company) :shok:
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
So the dance style with the spoons or zills where they are doing that basic side step is called misket? I wondered what it was called. Its very simple, but I love it, makes me want to join in the fun:dance:

The Kocheck stuff is interesting. There are tons of clips on youtube. I remember when people were saying no such thing existed any more, now they've resurfaced all over the place. I've noticed there are differences. some of them dance to davul and Zurna music, (some times the fiddle also) only, some use claranet and jumbush, (banjo), some of them dance to saz, and darbuka.

There are also costume differences, some wear a narrow skirt with a scarf that they flip a lot, some wear the really full skirts with a folded hankerchief, others wear rows of pompoms in the front. I don't know if these differences are regional or the taste of individual groups. Ankara style seems to be the most vigerous and comical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIV9Yi8fUL0 : location unknown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqgNa_QhdRE : Location?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZIhoT5Rgec : Location?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQ3nL0h3NE : Ankara

Can anyone shed some light on these clips?
 

Kiraze

New member
So the dance style with the spoons or zills where they are doing that basic side step is called misket? I wondered what it was called. Its very simple, but I love it, makes me want to join in the fun:dance:

The Kocheck stuff is interesting. There are tons of clips on youtube. I remember when people were saying no such thing existed any more, now they've resurfaced all over the place. I've noticed there are differences. some of them dance to davul and Zurna music, (some times the fiddle also) only, some use claranet and jumbush, (banjo), some of them dance to saz, and darbuka.
Tarik, this is a dance I personally do not much know about but as my hubby is from Yozgat this is also a style we are used to dance a lot at different occasions. I am not even sure about if Misket is the correct name as that is what our friends call it but I have also heard this been called Ankara Havasi (simply Ankara dance) or Ankara Oyun Havasi - actually dance of Pavyons is often referred as Oyun Havasi so there can be different nuances as common folks definately do not use zills - and spoons are not very typical either for Central Anatolian dances but I have seen them used even at country side weddings so this would be a subject I also would like to know more about...

But this is fun style anyway - steps and movements can be connected with lyrics also, which are often very funny (and can be a bit naughty too). Unfortunately I am terrible in making any translations as my Turkish is still very basic and this kind of songs are very easy to understand wrongly.

I think that Köceks are still often seen at country side where they perform as pro performes at e.g. weddings (as female performers are not allowed) - this again is an interesting subject I would like to know more from Turkish sources that have real music and dance background (like Tayyar Akdeniz or some guys who have visited here at the forum occasionally). Using different instruments however is typical for locations with all the folk dances: davul and zurna are used outdoors -indoors you can have clarinets, saz, violin etc...
 

artemisdances

New member
Turkish Style - commentary

Hi All;

Artemis Mourat here. I will start with a confession that I hardly ever get a chance to read the forums because I am traveling more than I am home. But I just joined Oriental dancer and I am very much interested in this thread. I promise to peek in here from time to time. This is a wonderful thread and full of intelligent questions and answers. Thank you for your kind words about my workshops and my DVDs and such. If you want to know more about Turkish style and Egyptian style dance than what I can put here, you can go to my website at www.serpentine.org and click into an article that I wrote which includes a lot of information about topic. I have another article there too about skirt dancing (which is NOT Turkish). I will address some of the points that have been made on this thread...

I respectfully disagree with Chyrssanthi Saher. I like many of her posts and she is a truly remarkable authority on many things. In fact, we share some heritage and experience...My father is a Greek born in Turkey and my family was there for over 300 years so we, (in my family) are what people sometimes call "Turkish Greeks." I have been to Turkey 16 times and have done field research there and I too have danced at hundreds and hundreds of Turkish parties and at Turkish, Greek and Arabic clubs. There IS artistry and complexity and sophistication in both Turkish Oriental and Egyptian style dance and music. It is, however different in many ways. They share a great deal of history and they have cross pollinated for centuries but they are born on different continents and the lineage is different for each style of dance. The Turkish Rromany dances are the mother of Turkish Oriental dance. This cannot be denied when you trace the lineage. Unfortunately the Turkish Oriental dancers are not incorporating it into their shows as much as they once did.

As for the karsilama, the confusion may come from the fact that there are many different versions and usages for the 9/8 time signature in both Turkey and in Greece - some folkloric, some Rromany and also some Oriental. The 9/8 time signature that we grew up with in the US cabarets, has the accented beats on the 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 and this is rarely heard in Turkey today. Anahid Sofian coined the expression "Cabaret Karsilama" when referring to this. What you typically hear in Turkey now is what many of us are calling the "Romany 9/8." The accented beats are on the 1, 3, 5, 7, 8. The ninth beat is present but silent. The tempo can range from very slow to lightning fast. The 9/8s are not the only rhythms that Oriental dancers have used in Turkey but they get the most attention when people are making differentiations between Turkish and Egyptian Oriental dance. The Turkish bands are not usually the big orchestras you find in Egypt. So this can explain why the music does not seem as highly complex - it is not as heavily orchestrated.

There is an explosion of good Turkish music coming from Turkey now. Tayyar Akdeniz has a new CD coming out now and it is being recorded as I write this. I am hoping he will have them for sale when he returns to the US later this month. This is an instructional music CD about Turkish dance music and also has lots of cuts quite suitable for performances and teaching. He actually teaches the rhythms for each song on the CD.

There is also confusion about the Oriental dancers and the dance style in Turkey as you see it today today. Many of them are using Arabic music and they are imitating Egyptian and even some Oriental American dance styling. There are also many foreign dancers in Turkey too, many of whom are very pretty but not particularly good dancers. Unfortunately these are often the entertainers for the tourist clubs so when Oriental dancers come to these shows in Turkey, they are confused about what good Turkish Oriental dance really is. But there are superb dancers in Turkey too. Sema Yildiz and Birgul Beray are great. Tayyar Akdeniz is a famous Folk dancer but he can teach wonderful Oriental and Rromany dance (in English too). Reyhan is becoming quite popular for teaching Rromany. Tulay Karaca is one of the very best Turkish Oriental dancers ever but she is retired. Nesrin Topkapi, is the other all time great Turkish dancer but she has retired from performing. Nesrin and Birgul are among our many teachers at our AlaTurka Dance and Music Festival in Istanbul this late August and early September (www.folktours.com...we also have Egyptian dance taught there too by Sahra Saeeda and Nourhan Sharif). Didem and Aseena are very good too but they are fusing other elements into their dance. The dance style that Eva Cernik and I perform and teach are closer to what was being performed there before this newest generation began fusing outside forms so heavily. That being said, Turkish Oriental dance has always had other elements fused into it (look at the history of Turkey and the size and scope of the Ottoman Empire to see why). It is, however, my fervent hope that the fusing does not become so extensive that the original style is lost.

I hope you find this helpful!
Happy Spring!

Artemis Mourat, MA, MSW
 

KuteNurse

New member
Hi All;

Artemis Mourat here. I will start with a confession that I hardly ever get a chance to read the forums because I am traveling more than I am home. But I just joined Oriental dancer and I am very much interested in this thread. I promise to peek in here from time to time. This is a wonderful thread and full of intelligent questions and answers. Thank you for your kind words about my workshops and my DVDs and such. If you want to know more about Turkish style and Egyptian style dance than what I can put here, you can go to my website at www.serpentine.org and click into an article that I wrote which includes a lot of information about topic. I have another article there too about skirt dancing (which is NOT Turkish). I will address some of the points that have been made on this thread...

I respectfully disagree with Chyrssanthi Saher. I like many of her posts and she is a truly remarkable authority on many things. In fact, we share some heritage and experience...My father is a Greek born in Turkey and my family was there for over 300 years so we, (in my family) are what people sometimes call "Turkish Greeks." I have been to Turkey 16 times and have done field research there and I too have danced at hundreds and hundreds of Turkish parties and at Turkish, Greek and Arabic clubs. There IS artistry and complexity and sophistication in both Turkish Oriental and Egyptian style dance and music. It is, however different in many ways. They share a great deal of history and they have cross pollinated for centuries but they are born on different continents and the lineage is different for each style of dance. The Turkish Rromany dances are the mother of Turkish Oriental dance. This cannot be denied when you trace the lineage. Unfortunately the Turkish Oriental dancers are not incorporating it into their shows as much as they once did.

As for the karsilama, the confusion may come from the fact that there are many different versions and usages for the 9/8 time signature in both Turkey and in Greece - some folkloric, some Rromany and also some Oriental. The 9/8 time signature that we grew up with in the US cabarets, has the accented beats on the 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 9 and this is rarely heard in Turkey today. Anahid Sofian coined the expression "Cabaret Karsilama" when referring to this. What you typically hear in Turkey now is what many of us are calling the "Romany 9/8." The accented beats are on the 1, 3, 5, 7, 8. The ninth beat is present but silent. The tempo can range from very slow to lightning fast. The 9/8s are not the only rhythms that Oriental dancers have used in Turkey but they get the most attention when people are making differentiations between Turkish and Egyptian Oriental dance. The Turkish bands are not usually the big orchestras you find in Egypt. So this can explain why the music does not seem as highly complex - it is not as heavily orchestrated.

There is an explosion of good Turkish music coming from Turkey now. Tayyar Akdeniz has a new CD coming out now and it is being recorded as I write this. I am hoping he will have them for sale when he returns to the US later this month. This is an instructional music CD about Turkish dance music and also has lots of cuts quite suitable for performances and teaching. He actually teaches the rhythms for each song on the CD.

There is also confusion about the Oriental dancers and the dance style in Turkey as you see it today today. Many of them are using Arabic music and they are imitating Egyptian and even some Oriental American dance styling. There are also many foreign dancers in Turkey too, many of whom are very pretty but not particularly good dancers. Unfortunately these are often the entertainers for the tourist clubs so when Oriental dancers come to these shows in Turkey, they are confused about what good Turkish Oriental dance really is. But there are superb dancers in Turkey too. Sema Yildiz and Birgul Beray are great. Tayyar Akdeniz is a famous Folk dancer but he can teach wonderful Oriental and Rromany dance (in English too). Reyhan is becoming quite popular for teaching Rromany. Tulay Karaca is one of the very best Turkish Oriental dancers ever but she is retired. Nesrin Topkapi, is the other all time great Turkish dancer but she has retired from performing. Nesrin and Birgul are among our many teachers at our AlaTurka Dance and Music Festival in Istanbul this late August and early September (www.folktours.com...we also have Egyptian dance taught there too by Sahra Saeeda and Nourhan Sharif). Didem and Aseena are very good too but they are fusing other elements into their dance. The dance style that Eva Cernik and I perform and teach are closer to what was being performed there before this newest generation began fusing outside forms so heavily. That being said, Turkish Oriental dance has always had other elements fused into it (look at the history of Turkey and the size and scope of the Ottoman Empire to see why). It is, however, my fervent hope that the fusing does not become so extensive that the original style is lost.

I hope you find this helpful!
Happy Spring!

Artemis Mourat, MA, MSW

Thanks for the info Artemis! I am new to this and I am learning. Some of what you talked about went right over my head, but I did understand some of it. I am starting my first class in a couple of weeks. Up until now I have just practiced basic moves from Delilah's workshop series. I did not realize you were so famous in the BD world. I am going to look you up.! Welcome to the forum and I will look forward to your posts. I am also from the states, Minnesota and I wish spring would sprung!
 

turkishboy

New member
In the Ottoman term,Turks explored the bellydance from some arab countries such as Egypt,Tunisia,Morocco.Because The Ottoman Empire managed these countries for a long time.

After the foundation of the republic, ''gazino'' culture started to spread in Istanbul (especially in 70's)Gazino is a restaurant and a night club where the popular turkish folk and the turkish art singers performed.Rich people was coming to these clubs.Some belly dancers performed at these clubs.Their style was the amateur imitation of the egyptian style.They attracted attention with their costumes,not with their dance.

Nesrin Topkapi is the first dancer who appears on TV in Turkey(31 December 1980,on TRT, a public TV of Turkey).Her costume was so closed(long skirt,black dress).After the this performance lots of people knowed and adored her and bellydance.Her developed technque didn't resemble the other dancers's who performs at gazinos.

At the beginnig of 90's, private TV's, which depend on some companies, started to open.These TV's displayed lots of bellydancers at the New Year's Eves.The examples of these dancers are Sibel Baris,Sibel Gokce,Tanyeli,Leyla Adali,Pinar Elice,Zinnur Karaca,Azra etc...
They developed the bellydance technique(Oval hip movements, floorworks, bellyrolls, hand and arm figures).Some of these dancers attracted attention with their costumes(short skirts,small bras).Because of these costume, some people thought bellydancing like the striptease and thought bellydancers like strippers.

The examples of turkish belly dancing on 90's

Pinar Elice


Leyla Adali


Sibel Gokce


Since the end of the 90's, ''turkish bellydance'' style has started to be clear.(sharp and big hip movements and shimmnies, bellyrols, floorworks,sharp breast figures, body vibration etc.).Many dancers appeared such as Asena,Zumre,Didem,Elcin,Buket,Hale Sultan...

Elcin


Didem


Asena


These are only my observations.
 
Last edited:

Kiraze

New member
In the Ottoman term,Turks explored the bellydance from some arab countries such as Egypt,Tunisia,Morocco.Because The Ottoman Empire managed these countries for a long time...

After the foundation of the republic, ''gazino'' culture started to spread in Istanbul (especially in 70's)Gazino is a restaurant and a night club where the popular turkish folk and the turkish art singers performed.Rich people was coming to these clubs.Some belly dancers performed at these clubs.Their style was the amateur imitation of the egyptian style.They attracted attention with their costumes,not with their dance...

Since the end of the 90's, ''turkish bellydance'' style has started to be clear.(sharp and big hip movements and shimmnies, bellyrols, floorworks,sharp breast figures, body vibration etc.)...

These are only my observations.
Interesting observations but I do not agree on most of them :confused:

Of course there were SOME influences during Ottoman times coming from Egypt but I would say that influence from Morocco and Tunis was minimal and the clearest influences were those of gypsies and of Central Asia - in fact during Ottoman times it was more Turkish dance that influenced Egyptian dance than vice versa.

After Ottoman empire collapsed besides gypsy dancers many court dancers also started to dance in public so that added even more Central Asian, Persian and Russian influences to dance as most of the court dancers were coming from those areas (according to writings of Metin And it was not dignified to Turks to dance). Nightclubs of Istanbul started to provide belly dance already during 20´s when influence from Egypt was minimal - and this influence has been minimal until 90´s so dancers of 70´s did NOT make any amateur imitation of Egyptian style (of course it is possible that some did) but they danced style that was still heavily influenced by gypsies. Some most famous dancers like Prenses Banu danced also a lot outside Turkey so her style got lots of influences from Arab style (Lebanon and Gulf more than Egypt) but things like playing zills, floorwork, sharp and big hip movements, bellyrolls etc. existed already before 90´s and luckily they still do :D

Dancers of 90´s in fact started to loose their "Turkishness" as they were so heavily involved with European/American/Egyptian dancers and DVD:s started to be easily available - because of dance tourists many started to think that it is finer to dance Egyptian style and so many took away all the Turkish influences from their dancing and started to study Egyptian style but I would still say that biggest influence to current Turkish style has come from Germany :rolleyes:

At the moment it looks that there is at least small scale "comeback" of more Turkish style and current modern style still continues to evolve - I myself hope that better Turkish music could be available so using that would be as easy as using Arab classics. According to Hale Sultan i met last week there is also more light in the tunnel as there is a new oriental dance branch lead by Asena under Ministry of Culture (or some other ministry... I have to check this) so hopefully this means that also belly dance will be approved as art and as a part of Turkish tradition:pray:
 
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