What do we mean when we say 'modern' bellydance?

[Roshanna]

I've been thinking about this on a few occasions lately, what with the whole 'cultural appropriation' debate and stuff. When we describe dance as 'modern' or 'traditional', what do we actually mean? And what does it say about how we see the dance and its cultures of origin?

I wrote a blog post on this this morning, because I saw the old 'modern fusion vs. traditional Middle Eastern' dichotomy cropping up again in a discussion:

On ?modernity? in bellydance | Bellydance by Rasha Nour

What do you think?

 

[Aniseteph]

:clap:

To me, modern belly dance is what's trending in Cairo, not global belly dance developments. But then I'm an old stick in the mud purist.

Traditional is a complicated word. It's a useful shortcut I suppose, and I think I'd probably be OK using it in a general way to differentiate ME-centric styles from Tribal and TF and other branches. It's a convenient label. OTOH if it is being used with the implication that it's stuck in the past ME style as opposed to evolving envelope-pushing styles elsewhere... umm, no, that'll be Orientalist hogwash from people who don't get it. IMO.

 

[Daimona]

I'm seconding Aniseteph. From an Egyptian style point of view, modern belly dance is the contemporary trend in Cairo. Currently I would say it is the style that developed and draw heavy influence from Dina and Randa, as opposing to the more romantic and softer style popular in the mid 1990ies and earlier.

ETA: There are lots of contemporary trends around the globe, but what dancers based in other styles think about "modern" I cannot say anything about, though.

 

[Amulya]

The word modern would include so many dance forms it gets complicated. All the middle eastern styles done in the Middle East right now are modern, but so are the styles done in the west. But where in the time frame would you call let's say Egyptian style, modern? Like 10 years ago? Or do the styles from the 90s count as modern? The 80s? And you could go on and on, per country and style...

 

[Darshiva]

I think of Modern Oriental as using contemporary ME music with distinctly bellydance stylings and if using props they are contemporary (things like wings, fanveils, poi, etc would fall in this catagory)

Modern Egyptian I think is what other posters have described - being what's hot in Cairo right now.

 

[Kashmir]

I think of Modern Oriental as using contemporary ME music with distinctly bellydance stylings and if using props they are contemporary (things like wings, fanveils, poi, etc would fall in this catagory)

Modern Egyptian I think is what other posters have described - being what's hot in Cairo right now.

I can't see "Oriental" and wings , fanveil or poi in the same sentence! Oriental is not just a synonym for belly dance - it carries with it specific music styles and interpretation. Worse, most wing, fanveil or poi performances I have seen have NO belly dance elements (other than maybe the costume).

"Modern Egyptian" is the style that came out in the 1990s - made famous by Raqia Hassan. It introduced movements like the "straight-legged" shimmy (which isn't).

I'm reminded of a course I attended on "Modern Structured Programming" - by the time teh course came out programming had already moved on.

 

[Daimona]

Modern Egyptian seem to be rather well defined with the change in the 1990ies.

Apart from the use of properties (and forgetting how to actually dance when using them), how has the dance itself evolved in other styles? Have there been similar or perhaps more subtle changes in Turkish or Lebanese, Russian/eastern European, American and other styles that would define a modern version of that style?





And a small digression:
Some years back (2007) I attended a workshop in "Modern Oriental" by an elderly Egyptian teacher at a large festival. I believe most of the attendees expected some of the recent trends the past decade would be included, but it turned out to be a rather soft and romantic choreography. One of my friends attending the same class asked what made this a modern oriental. "This move", the teacher said being slightly annoyed and demonstrated a cute little combination with the feet from the choreography. :lol:

 

[Darshiva]

I can't see "Oriental" and wings , fanveil or poi in the same sentence! Oriental is not just a synonym for belly dance - it carries with it specific music styles and interpretation. Worse, most wing, fanveil or poi performances I have seen have NO belly dance elements (other than maybe the costume).

That's pretty much why I said that it uses the moves and the props. Was I unclear?

Oriental is a descriptor that is used for 'bellydancy' moves rather than 'tribally' moves. It to me is a fusion style that evolves in a local area from ME influences & stylings (an example of this being American Oriental, originally known as American Cabaret). I stand by my descriptor, although I would enjoy a debate on what new name to call it.

 

[Kashmir]

Oriental is a descriptor that is used for 'bellydancy' moves rather than 'tribally' moves. It to me is a fusion style that evolves in a local area from ME influences & stylings (an example of this being American Oriental, originally known as American Cabaret). I stand by my descriptor, although I would enjoy a debate on what new name to call it.

I use it as used in Egypt where it is short for danse orientale - and not all bellydancy moves are covered! (A bit like the confusion recently when a Tribal dancer referred to something as "Egyptian" when she actually meant non-Tribal.) In this case I would use belly dance vs tribal. But that might cause some ruckions.

 

[Darshiva]

that's why I use oriental. I use Egyptian when describing something from Egypt and oriental for derivative forms that are obviously from that source. Tribal has definitely diverged enough to be called it's own thing, so it wouldn't fall under oriental as far as I was concerned although it is still obviously bellydance.

 

[Amulya]

Some words mean different things in different countries, if you translate 'oriental dance' into Dutch it is the word that people use for belly dance. but I have noticed that if you use the word in other countries people expect Chinese/Indonesian/Japanese/whole range of different dances.
In the past I used to use Oriental dance in Dutch because there was still a stigma on the Dutch word for belly dance (which translates exactly to belly dance) or I used Egyptian dance, although that's not always exactly what I do (though it is the basis my dancing) Even here in Australia I sometimes use the word Egyptian dance, in cases where I think people will think something strange if you say belly dance (which people often mishear as ballet dance haha)

 

[Kashmir]

Some words mean different things in different countries, if you translate 'oriental dance' into Dutch it is the word that people use for belly dance. but I have noticed that if you use the word in other countries people expect Chinese/Indonesian/Japanese/whole range of different dances.

Except it isn't something to translate - it is a technical term (which is why I always use the French spelling and pronunciation) - like plié or jeté. Not good examples as they have simple translations. More like pas de boureé - it does not just mean step of a traditional French dance - it means a specific way of moving the feet.

Orientale is a specific style of dance (from professional entertainers in Egypt/Lebanon etc). It does not include social dance - unless they are trying to dance like professionals. It does not include beledi. It does not include shaabi - or in most cases dancing to pop music. It does not include any folkloric dance. All of these are part of most belly dancer's repertoire and are not orientale (or oriental dance - which I too assume is something from China or Japan).

 

[Darshiva]

So give us a term we can use then. It's all well & good to point out that we're wrong, I've got no problem with that, but what's the right word to use?

I went for the one that is commonly in use to describe the style I'm talking about - Oriental, not Orientale. Semantics, I know, but I pronounce the words differently & spell the words differently, so I'm not understanding why you're balking at the use of a word that is not the word you are aligning with Egyptian-style bellydance (as performed on stage), that is commonly used and widely accepted as the way to describe "localised variants of bellydance that are obviously middle-eastern in origin but have evolved". Because calling it that (the bit in quotes) is not going to cut it.

 

[Aniseteph]

I think of oriental and orientale as different too. If someone says Orientale I think specifically the ME performance style Kashmir describes. Oriental could be a direct translation of Orientale meaning exactly the same thing, or it could be describing something more general, maybe more globalised/ Westernised, and possibly being Evolved. Depends who is using it.

And saying Orientale to civilians is better because Oriental reads as Chinese or Korean or Japanese.

Hey, 3 or so corrections and my tablet learnt that I do mean Orientale, not orientable. Scary.

 

[Kashmir]

So give us a term we can use then. It's all well & good to point out that we're wrong, I've got no problem with that, but what's the right word to use?

If you mean everything all in a big bag - I'm tempted to use the dreaded "B" word. If you want to distinguish the rest from Tribal you could use "Middle Eastern Dance" - but where does that leave styles such as AmCab? Further there is plenty of Middle Eastern Dance isn't "belly dance".

I've wrestled with this for many years and my latest version is on line at What is Belly Dance?

I went for the one that is commonly in use to describe the style I'm talking about - Oriental, not Orientale. Semantics, I know, but I pronounce the words differently & spell the words differently, so I'm not understanding why you're balking at the use of a word that is not the word you are aligning with Egyptian-style bellydance (as performed on stage), that is commonly used and widely accepted as the way to describe "localised variants of bellydance that are obviously middle-eastern in origin but have evolved". Because calling it that (the bit in quotes) is not going to cut it.

I guess because for me "oriental" is China and Japan ie the Far East - and "oriental dance" is the dance of these countries. By using the English word most GP will think that - and even if they know you are talking about "belly dance" it will reinforce the idea it comes form India (few are sophisticated enough to understand it was east of Paris!!)

I'm not sure the English oriental is "commonly used and widely accepted" - certainly not among dancers I have associated with in NZ, Austrailia and the US. Among those, if they use Orientale or Oriental they just mean the performance style that is professional, not beledi or folkloric. The only people I have come across that lump Orientale, beledi, folk, and social dance into one big bag and label it are Tribal dancers.

I have always assumed Oriental was used because many dancers assumed it was "oriental" and no-one pointed out it came from the French - or they knew and they didn't like foreign words.

 

[Aniseteph]

Dancers hereabouts IRL use the word Oriental, definitely meaning what you describe as Orientale. I think it's because we are more comfortable with the anglicised pronunciation. I hope no dancers thinks it's anything to do with China, though you never know. No one would use it for the GP unless they wanted to do a lot of explaining, or wanted to cause confusion.

 

[Kashmir]

Dancers hereabouts IRL use the word Oriental, definitely meaning what you describe as Orientale. I think it's because we are more comfortable with the anglicised pronunciation.

Here there is little or no objection to "belly dance". In the 1990s there was a brief use of MED or Middle Eastern Dance but only oldies use it these days

 

[Jane]

Terminology depends on who I'm talking to. For general public I say belly dance and when I talk to other dancers I say, raqs sharqi or whatever specific form I mean. More a matter of layman's terms vs. professional. Honestly, I don't have an accurate umbrella term for "cultural belly dance from the middle east turkey and north africa and all of its world wide spin-offs that people argue over." It's too darned long to say. I know some people use "belly dance" for that, but I see it too broadly used for anything with a bra and a wiggle- and sometimes not even a wiggle.

When I think of modern belly dance, I think of the popular dancers from "over there" after Raqia Hassan and Aida Nour for Egypt and people like Didem in Turkey. More athletic styles rather than the old softer look. Less a specific cut off date than a stylistic shift over a few years. Personally, I don't see ATS or Tribal fusion forms, or art dance fusions as belly dance anymore. They have become their own genre because of the music and cultural disconnect. It's not bad, just different. American Oriental/AmCab is just belly dance American style- the melting pot of our immigrant heritage and cultural values. Truly an American treasure.

 

[Shanazel]

http://bellydanceforums.net/dance-s...hread-dilution-authenticity-4.html#post124440


What Jane said expresses my thoughts quite adequately.

During one of her lamentably infrequent visits to the forum, Morocco objected to my use of the term "Old-style American Cabaret." (See link above. The site is not allowing me to do things like put links in their proper place.) It was an interesting discussion on dance style designations. Since we are a good five years down the line from that discussion, I've decided to abandon "classic" in favor of "archaic" for pre-1983 based AmCab style. That frees "classic" for the period between 1983 and 2000 and "modern" for anything that came along after I started developing significant arthritis and gave up floor work for good.
Thus we have: ArAmCab, ClAmCab, and MoAmCab (sounds like a dinner wine list ).

 

[Kashmir]

Would like to Like your post Shanazel - but since moving to Chrome the Like links don't seem to work any more :-(