What do you think?

Shanazel

Super Moderator
Ah, Sadie. So infamous, and yet so capable of doing a really lovely dance. She does have marvelous control, doesn't she?
 

Nat242

New member
Welcome to belly dance! :dance:

Check out Zorba's website, it's packed full of information and has lots of great articles that might answer some of your questions.

Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

(Hope Zorba doesn't mind the plug)

Also, off topic, why is Sadie so infamous?
 

Kuma

New member
We're out there

I recently started on my own, but plan to attend classes very soon. We're lucky to have local instructors. How receptive they will be to a male student remains to be seen. Though I don't anticipate any issues, as everyone here has been very supportive and I suspect my instructor will be too. Good luck to you. :cool:
 

Sharif

New member
The "infamous" bit explained

Kaya and Sadie did a performance at Rakkasah 2006 titled "Scenes from the Kama Sutra". This involved a coffee table, lots of smoke and some muscular Nubian males lifting them up in suggestive positions. As a result they have been vilified by the larger belly dance community and are now banned from Rakkasah. Of course, like with Pamela Anderson and Paris Hilton, it hasn't hurt their name recognition.

As far as I have seen from pictures and heard from eyewitnesses it was fairly innocent (definitely no humping involved), although some seem to have seen some BDSM-style gestures :shok:. But the american soul is easily offended, and children will be damaged for life when exposed to such outrage, of course... :rolleyes:
 

maybeicandance

New member
Ohhh!

Ok I see now, because you get alot of men who already think belly dancing is a sexual thing, which it's not, is just a very sensual dance, thanks for your reply.
 

Shanazel

Super Moderator
But the american soul is easily offended, and children will be damaged for life when exposed to such outrage, of course... :rolleyes:
I dunno- the occasional glimpses I get of primetime television would seem to indicate the American soul is pretty hardy when it comes to sex as entertainment. Let's just say that Kaya and Sadie did not enter into Rakkasah with no intent to shock and awe, and for the greater audience, the shock was greater than the awe. I'm not sure being mentioned in the same breath with Paris and Pamela is fair, though. Kaya and Sadie can both dance.;)
 

gypsy8522

New member
Shanazel and Sharif, do you mean it? Or are you being sarcastic? Because the things you are saying doesn't reflect what I have seen on American television.

So I'm a little slow today....... :think:
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
The performance at Rakkasah was disgusting, to put it mildly. There was nothing "innocent" about it. I was there.

What's really infuriating about it is that this crap spreads faster than a wildfire in an oil refinery - I'm seeing more and more of it.
 

Shanazel

Super Moderator
Shanazel and Sharif, do you mean it? Or are you being sarcastic? Because the things you are saying doesn't reflect what I have seen on American television.

So I'm a little slow today....... :think:
Well, no, I'm not being sarcastic about television. I don't have a tv at home, but when I go to the gym to walk and lift weights, there is a bank of televisions right there in front of me. I will admit that I may be the only person in the gym surprised by some of the televised activities; not having a TV myself, I am less desensitized than most of the American public to displays of sexual activity and violence. I prefer a good plot to sensational visuals.

I like Kaya, she's a nice person and a great teacher. The performance at Rakkasah, however, featured conduct unbecoming to a belly dancer. The public reaction to it has less to do with puritanical American souls than it does universal good taste. The performance slammed belly dance right back into the "please your sultan" category and I think that was resented even more than the simulated sex.
 
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Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
The performance slammed belly dance right back into the "please your sultan" category and I think that was resented even more than the simulated sex.
You couldn't have put it better - and you did put it far better than I did! Just about every "reputable" Belly Dancer in the country decried what happened at Rak '06. It brought the term "coffee table" into the Belly Dancer's lexicon for a sleazy performance. The sad thing was, this wasn't the only dubious performance at Rak '06, but was by far the worst and overshadowed the rest.
 
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Sharif

New member
The performance at Rakkasah, however, featured conduct unbecoming to a belly dancer. The public reaction to it has less to do with puritanical American souls than it does universal good taste. The performance slammed belly dance right back into the "please your sultan" category and I think that was resented even more than the simulated sex.
Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder of course, but I disagree with your points here.
I don't think there was any simulated sex present, although of course techniques differ from couple to couple :D No humping or even crotch contact. There's as much or more going on in ballet performances at times. See the video posted by Tarik in a different thread for some serious ME belly dance sleaze.
And there were no sultans to be seen anywhere, from how they looked the men on stage would have been servants. The way I saw it those women were definitely in charge.
Finally, this performance would have been a big yawn in Europe, but it's such a big deal here. There is still a very puritanical slant to America's attitude towards sex. Never mind we are all the result of it.

There are those who want to completely disengage belly dance from sensuality and sexuality. For them, it should be a human being on stage (gender unimportant to know), performing a Form Of Art, expressing meaning in every dimension of human emotion EXCEPT THAT ONE. In reality, that isn't possible, and the general public is never going to buy into that interpretation of belly dance. Humans are very much sexual beings (there is plenty of research that shows this), and they will see the dance their way. You have to deal with that, and sometimes you can use it to your advantage. Kaya and Sadie certainly did.
 

Sharif

New member
The performance at Rakkasah was disgusting, to put it mildly. There was nothing "innocent" about it.
"disgusting, to put it mildly"? A matter of taste. To me Benny Hill is disgusting and in bad taste, and Jerry Springer, and wrestling shows, and boxing in general. This was pretty mild compared to all that, and beautiful at times.

"Innocent" - yes, a child watching it would just see a couple of grownups dancing, playing and moving in a beautiful way. No real difference from the other performances. No harm done - until a parent start complaining... And then, everybody can read the program and steer away from the stage if the title doesn't appeal to them.
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
Sigh...

You and I are going to have to agree to disagree, I guess. I was there...

There WAS "crotch contact", very explicitly so.

This kind of thing would probably be just fine in Amsterdam (or Vegas). It isn't here. Liberal European attitudes don't play in the US. Sometimes I'm sorry about that - and sometimes, like this time, I'm not.

This episode was decried by virtually every single reputable Belly Dancer in the country, from Morocco (if I'm remembering aright) all the way down to lowly Zorba.
 
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Aniseteph

New member
This kind of thing would probably be just fine in Amsterdam (or Vegas) ...... Liberal European attitudes don't play in the US.
I think if anyone did similar in the UK at a ME dance event the reaction would be much the same - :shok: and a great big sarcastic thank you so much for helping put belly dance back in the fantasy harem.
 

Shanazel

Super Moderator
Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder of course, but I disagree with your points here.
I don't think there was any simulated sex present, although of course techniques differ from couple to couple :D No humping or even crotch contact. .
It is true that some people think sex is limited to "humping." However, a glance through the literary Kama Sutra is likely to broaden one's sexual vocabulary and enable the enlightened one to view the Rakkasah performance with an enhanced understanding of what is being depicted.
 

Recnadocir

New member
I never believe any third hand reports from people at Rakkasah, etc. Why according to some on Bhuz, I performed a strip tease at Tribal Caravan a few years back. Several other "eyewitnesses" confirmed this, and I had no idea what these geese were cackling about. Then someone corrected them that it was actually some German guy who flashed his undies, or his butt, or....

Whatever, LOL!:lol:
 
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