What is your first impression about Muslims or Arabs ?

[Kharis]

This thread is not about white people though, is it. If you want to moan about prejudices against white people, perhaps you should start another thread on the subject. You can complain about how hard-done by white people are, and at the same time congratulate yourself for being inherently superior in that you do not react in the same fashion as people of other colours.

I have the odd feeling here that you are the doppelganger of Aisha Azar. Same inflexion, same gouding sarcastic style. Spooky....

 

[Dev]

The sarcastic comments i made about hindus was to show you in the same vein the way you would have felt if the thread title were "what is your first impression of hindus/indians?"...it in no way reflects my personal feelings or what may have been popular opinion. as a matter of fact i qualified my statement by saying that these are perceptions that have been perpetuated in order to villify minorities..

No you did not get my point, Never mind . But I got yours.

I will clearly say - You can say anything about Hindu religion, nothing bothers me, religion and race is not the trump card.

I did not answer the thread in a more positive way, because there was in fact NOTHING in the context of the first post that would have generated anything else but a negative answer and caused the bruhahaha that has resulted..

But you wanted the thread to become a googo gaaga and thats why you are posting in such a provocative manner , not only that you carried the conversation to another thread. I still think you had some other ideas, Its not my post thats driving you so mad, Is it a like "I am actually on your side" kind of things people talk about here. .

Thank you all for responding to the thread that I started.
And sorry to all the people I caused bad feelings with my post. It was not my intension.
Good night everybody.

Regards

 

[kayshier]

No you did not get my point, Never mind . But I got yours.

I will clearly say - You can say anything about Hindu religion, nothing bothers me, religion and race is not the trump card.



But you wanted the thread to become a googo gaaga and thats why you are posting in such a provocative manner , not only that you carried the conversation to another thread. I still think you had some other ideas, Its not my post thats driving you so mad, Is it a like "I am actually on your side" kind of things people talk about here. .

Thank you all for responding to the thread that I started.
And sorry to all the people I caused bad feelings with my post. It was not my intension.
Good night everybody.

Regards

I didn't argue this point because I am choosing sides. I am arguing this point vehemently because your approach in this thread was wrong and insensitive. simple

your efforts at psychoanalysis are based on selective reasoning...i didn't start the other thread to which this argument is related...I responded in that thread because I saw it as an attempt to view as dismissive the reaction of others to this thread by labelling them as trolls.
perhaps you should address that same issue with the person who started the thread, instead of those who disagree with your perspective and pov.
perhaps you should understand the function of a moderator is to look at things impartially..



Good night to you as well...(in my time zone it's now mid-morning)

 

[Awasef]

I have the odd feeling here that you are the doppelganger of Aisha Azar. Same inflexion, same gouding sarcastic style. Spooky....

No, I am not the doppelganger of Aisha Azar. I am the Ghost of Christmas Past. Repent.....repent....*rattles chains*

 

[summerdance]

On a more serious note... I've read and re-read this thread several times just in case I missed some cultural slur..and couldn't really find any.

We actually all have something to contribute here, all of us. I wish I could speak Arabic, but I can't. I did try to learn it once, but it was very difficult for me. So, when those who do speak Arabic on here send a post out, it would be nice for an english interpretation for the likes of me so that I can understand what's being said. There is a thread on here at the moment, that is entirely in Arabic. That immediately excludes everyone who can't speak that language. Do you see us complaining? Do you see us up in arms as being excluded from this inner Arabic speaking circle? Take a long hard look in the mirror here.

If this did not bother you, you'd not have even mentioned it. This is an international forum. No one says anything when the threads are in Spanish or French . The minute the Arabs start talking to each other, you get upset. Want to be included? Learn the language. We'd welcome you.

This is so ridiculous. Of course you don't see any slurs or bigotry. It should be enough that we've told you that WE find this whole thread offensive. The concept is offensive. The mere fact that we must be analyzed is offensive.

 

[Kharis]

If this did not bother you, you'd not have even mentioned it. This is an international forum. No one says anything when the threads are in Spanish or French . The minute the Arabs start talking to each other, you get upset. Want to be included? Learn the language. We'd welcome you.

This is so ridiculous. Of course you don't see any slurs or bigotry. It should be enough that we've told you that WE find this whole thread offensive. The concept is offensive. The mere fact that we must be analyzed is offensive.

I really don't have the energy to bandy semantics. All I can say is that I don't see it, and that's my perspective, just as you have yours. And you are right, of course, if I want to hear Arabic then I must learn to speak it. One thing I do agree on is that most Westerners are very lazy when it comes to learning another language and just assume that everyone will speak English. So forgive me if I came across as intolerant in this respect. But I'm really not upset that there is an Arabic thread.

 

[Kharis]

No, I am not the doppelganger of Aisha Azar. I am the Ghost of Christmas Past. Repent.....repent....*rattles chains*

Hahahaa, I knew it. What Arabic for ghost?

 

[gypsy8522]

If this did not bother you, you'd not have even mentioned it. This is an international forum. No one says anything when the threads are in Spanish or French . The minute the Arabs start talking to each other, you get upset. Want to be included? Learn the language. We'd welcome you.

A thread in Spanish, Dutch or French is fine, as long as it's not Ayrab.
I think as Ayrab natives, we should know our place, and only speak Arabic when asked for song translation or other linguistic services.

 

[Kharis]

A thread in Spanish, Dutch or French is fine, as long as it's not Ayrab.
I think as Ayrab natives, we should know our place, and only speak Arabic when asked for song translation or other linguistic services.

that's it, Gypsy, you keep it all stirred up. Is there an emoticon for wearisome eye rolling?

 

[summerdance]

A thread in Spanish, Dutch or French is fine, as long as it's not Ayrab.
I think as Ayrab natives, we should know our place, and only speak Arabic when asked for song translation or other linguistic services.

This is true.

 

[Oona]

As a noob, you betcha I fear posting on this thread, but I'm going to anyway. Everyone seems to assume the worst of other people on here, but I'm not going to give up on this forum just yet...I have seen goodness in my short time here. I love being pleasantly surprised at the level of kindness some have extended to me when I asked a question about dance or somesuch.

I suppose on this thread I just wanted to quote a phrase I really like..."Prejudice begins with ignorance and ends with understanding." Most of what I see here is lack of understanding and people who refuse to even try to understand where another is coming from or give the slightest benefit of the doubt and tend to jump to the worst conclusions possible about other people's intentions. As long as this continues, there will never be understanding. People have to put their sh*t behind them and reach out and trust in the essential goodness in others (we all have it, even if it's tucked deep down inside) or there will NEVER be any progress made. That said, I prefer people talk about racism and work it all out rather than fear to talk about it (like I do after reading this thread). How else will learning take place and things begin to change?

I don't even know who Khanjar is, but I know that to me, he/she has made the wisest comments I've seen out of all of all the posts on this forum, but few have seen to pay them any mind.

I hope what I said makes sense. Today, mercury has gone into retrograde so if I've said anything wrong or confusing, I apologise ahead of time. I'm not perfect and I can't please everyone...a good attitude to adopt!

 

[Awasef]

What Arabic for ghost?

Go ask an Arab who doesn't find you despicable.

 

[kayshier]

As a noob, you betcha I fear posting on this thread, but I'm going to anyway. Everyone seems to assume the worst of other people on here, but I'm not going to give up on this forum just yet...I have seen goodness in my short time here. I love being pleasantly surprised at the level of kindness some have extended to me when I asked a question about dance or somesuch.

I suppose on this thread I just wanted to quote a phrase I really like..."Prejudice begins with ignorance and ends with understanding." Most of what I see here is lack of understanding and people who refuse to even try to understand where another is coming from or give the slightest benefit of the doubt and tend to jump to the worst conclusions possible about other people's intentions. As long as this continues, there will never be understanding. People have to put their sh*t behind them and reach out and trust in the essential goodness in others (we all have it, even if it's tucked deep down inside) or there will NEVER be any progress made. That said, I prefer people talk about racism and work it all out rather than fear to talk about it (like I do after reading this thread). How else will learning take place and things begin to change?

I don't even know who Khanjar is, but I know that to me, he/she has made the wisest comments I've seen out of all of all the posts on this forum, but few have seen to pay them any mind.

I hope what I said makes sense. Today, mercury has gone into retrograde so if I've said anything wrong or confusing, I apologise ahead of time. I'm not perfect and I can't please everyone...a good attitude to adopt!

We have discussed racism on this forum before, and the discussions were rather healthy ones i might add...
the approach to this topic in this thread imo was just dead wrong. I make no apologies for saying that.
for me the intent of this thread was...well this is what i thought about X and because i am learning about a part of X's culture that I have been exposed to and because i love it so much, X doesn't seem that bad anymore...really I have grown and learnt and changed....

uhm..I don't think that's the wisest approach to take. it's smug really, and patronizing..especially when the discussion invites others to share whatever misconceived notions, and pat themselves on the back for having become enlightened.

X's feelings, or in this case Arabs or Muslims sensibilities need to be taken into consideration. Throughout the thread I have been talking about putting yourself (as the reader) as the topic of discussion, in the same vein as the first post, and understand how that may feel...its like holding up someone for a specimen worthy of examination...not a human being from another culture who you wish to gain an understanding from...quite frankly this thread reminds me of story of Saartje Bartmaan. Maybe if you are so inclined you should have a read.

Awasef, i really think that last comment to Kharis was uncalled for. I mean i know the debate is about, but i can't say i agree with what you did in that last post.

 

[Mya]

With the exceptions of Khanjar, Farasha, Reen, Oona and Lydia, the whole lot of you on both sides of this conversation have all really made me sad and disappointed. And yes even if you don't believe me i have alot of respect for many of this thread's participants on BOTH sides so it does hurt me to see you misunderstand each other to the extent of this bitterness.

• Responding to insensitivity with hostility solves nothing, it only breeds defensiveness which in turn does not encourage understanding.
• Poking fires solves nothing, it breeds hostility.
• Not considering the context of the post (any post in this thread!) solves nothing and keeps minds closed.
• Re-enforcing miscommunication solves nothing and not thinking about the other side of BOTH perspectives here solves nothing.

I don't think this thread was intended to offend, though i can see how it could. I think it was insensitive and badly worded (as can happen with using a language that is not your first tongue) though not meant to induce bigotry. I think as much as our Muslim and Arab friends who are offended by it expect the others to try to understand exactly why with an open mind, that they they too need to try to understand the way that it was meant and the way that the responses were meant with an open mind as well.

All of this could have been avoided if the first disdainful person had said "this original post is pretty vague and can seem offensive - can you please clear up what you mean here?".

or as Khanjar and Reen said English as a second language is DIFFICULT because it is interpreted differently by everyone. Why didn't one of the native speakers reword the post in a more sensitive way and ask Dev if that was what he was getting at?

Then maybe Dev would have said "sure, what i meant was that this is the way that things are in india and my family was one that felt this way. I do not agree with this way, i feel differently, believe different and behave differently because of xyz. This has been impactful on my life in a profound way, what have your experiences been like and how have they changed your life? Many of us have not been so lucky as to grow up surrounded by tolerance, respect and understanding - I'm so grateful that being involved in this dance has helped me to grow as a person. I'm so grateful to my Arab friends who've helped me to clear up these bad misconceptions that are being wrongfully perpetuated; understanding foreign cultures is so important to respect. (just an example - i don't know if this is what dev meant)

Maybe then our friends would have said "hmmm... Dev means no disprespect to us, rather he seems to believe that we do deserve the same respect as everyone else. Look at these other responses - more people are becoming more educated, perhaps the world is changing in the tiniest of increments. Even if we may never see anything significant in our generation perhaps our children may be more blessed. I'll still mention that we all need to be careful how we word things though because that post sure made my blood boil when i read it!"

No one likes to be "othered" and everyone in this thread is guilty of othering. Sometimes we all need to step aside from our opinions and experiences even if they've often been right and be big enough to look at particular situations in isolation and recognise that it may not have actually been what it appeared to be. This is exceptionally difficult and most people would not want to do it, but that doesn't mean that it can't be done.

We also all need to be sensitive the context that we make comments in even if they're not ill-intended. People's feelings are not going to be affected by our intentions, they're going to be affected by how they perceive it - our past, our history, our family's history, and even by our present.
Our messages must be sensitive to our audiences in all contexts not just wrt to topics that are touchy. We can save each other alot of head/heart/gut ache this way!

Can we all please try to actually show that we're intelligent adults and not let these things get the best of us. There's way too much good stuff in the people here to let it disappear amongst the gunk.

 

[Freddie]

I'm a "noob" too, not posted much until recently.

What a horrific thread eh?? Well, I'm just gonna answer the question (which I wasn't offended by, but then I'm from the UK). In fact I feel a ramble coming on.

My first "experience" of anything Arab or Middle Eastern or African or anything-other-than-the-UK would have been my grandfather's overheated racism. He was an educated man, and very good at what he did, in his way. He was a sea captain and visited a lot of different countries, in peacetime and in war. And he hated anyone with skin darker than American Tan tights (pantyhose?).

Luckily for me he disliked me, so I mistrusted him from the start. He was also a complete misogynist. And a very dominating, controlling force in the family. I had major rows with him about race and gender on a number of occasions, which sent me further into the family dog house each time.

The generation after him are not much better - he had four children. Three of those are racist. One of those (the one I get on well with, unfortunately), once said to me - "you just can't trust any Arab". I don't think she has ever met anyone from the ME. We were talking about my mistrust for Bush at the time. I was shocked. But then, it was drummed into her daily from birth, and she has never travelled to the Middle East or even looked at it properly - it's just her "instinct" based on her conditioning.

Taking it to my generation, things are better. Not specifically towards Arabs or ME people, but to anyone from a different background to our own. My brothers and I take individuals on their own merits. I am married to a guy who was born here in Liverpool but whose father was Chinese and whose mother is half-Burmese, half-Welsh (and 100% Scouse). Get this - when I announced to my grandmother that we were getting married, she looked carefully at me and asked "you're not going to have children with him are you?". Nice eh?

But since taking on my new Chinese surname (actually my surname is 13 years old today - wow!), I have noticed a difference in how people relate to me, that there are preconceptions based on the name alone. I once went for an interview for a job and the guy (called Ian MacDonald) said "oh, I thought you were going to be Chinese". I said "and I thought you were going to be Scottish". Easy enough assumptions to be made, but problematic if you fear the Asian Tiger or think that all Scots are pennypinching.

Thanks to our new global village, these stereotypes are being broken down at breakneck speed. And those who would don KKK hoods or are extremist in terms of prejudice and hate are having the spotlight thrust right on them. In the case of this thread, they are doing it to themselves.

A most educational thread. Without reading it I would have had to wait months to find out who the characters on this forum are. Saved me a lot of time.

 

[Mya]

for me the intent of this thread was...well this is what i thought about X and because i am learning about a part of X's culture that I have been exposed to and because i love it so much, X doesn't seem that bad anymore...really I have grown and learnt and changed....

uhm..I don't think that's the wisest approach to take. it's smug really, and patronizing..especially when the discussion invites others to share whatever misconceived notions, and pat themselves on the back for having become enlightened.

X's feelings, or in this case Arabs or Muslims sensibilities need to be taken into consideration. Throughout the thread I have been talking about putting yourself (as the reader) as the topic of discussion, in the same vein as the first post, and understand how that may feel...its like holding up someone for a specimen worthy of examination...not a human being from another culture who you wish to gain an understanding from.

Awasef, i really think that last comment to Kharis was uncalled for. I mean i know the debate is about, but i can't say i agree with what you did in that last post.

Why do you assume that you have interpreted Dev's post correctly? Not once did you ask him to explain what he really meant or if in fact what he really meant was xyz?

I'm not saying that i disagree with you in that it ought to have been worded differently and more sensitively, especially if the intention is to gain a deeper understanding of people from that culture, but you're making judgements on what you think sometone means without verifying it with the source first.

 

[Kharis]

Go ask an Arab who doesn't find you despicable.

I feel that remark is totally uncalled for nasty and spiteful.

 

[Aniseteph]

Gee, feeling thoroughly crap now and sorry I tried.

 

[da Sage]

Do please tell me what Kinsey has to say about the Portuguese as I am off to Madeira in a few weeks....

IIRC, it was something about rather short but proportionally quite thick...
:shok:

 

[Freddie]

Gee, feeling thoroughly crap now and sorry I tried.

Don't let anyone else's negative energy get to you xx