What to do if you're not "authentic"?

[PoleDanceABCs]

I totally see where you are coming from... I started watching bellydance vids when I was much younger and I just loved it. I even got my mom to bring some bellydance videos from work so I could practice at home. I did it for a while but then I got so intimidated by the whole culture and history aspect of the dance that I forgot to just have fun! And then eventually I just dropped it totally. I'm really sad that I didn't just stick to it and take the time to learn more about the dance because now I'm picking up where I left off.

I see things differently now. Everything is a rehash of something and although some things are still supposedly "authentic" I don't believe that they really are. I go to historical balls and even though there are clear cut instructions from 200 years ago about the steps, clothing, and everything about the dance... it still isn't authentic in my eyes. I'm not that Victorian or Rococo lady with their attitude, I'm not in that time frame so I don't have those notions of society or culture or propriety integrated into my dance and movements. But... Yes I said BUT! I can see where certain things (dances, traditions, etc.) are still very important to a culture or a society and keeping them going as they always were is a deep thing. You can't wash it away.

Isn't life fun? It is sooo not black & white.

 

[Demelza Aradia]

Thankyou Aziyade and Shira for your wonderful advice!

Sometimes I worry a lot about being authentic as a bellydancer, and like others in this thread, I felt (and sometimes do feel) like an imposter in someone else's territory.

However, I never tell people I am an authentic middle eastern dancer, because I am not. I am a westerner who is absolutely enchanted by arabia, arabic music arabic dance, and I will never quite see the dance through the eyes of an egyptian, lebanese, or turk as I am too damned english. I can never be an authentic middle eastern dancer, but I can still be an authentic dancer.

At the moment I am very happy in my identity as a western student of bellydance.

 

[feedyoureye]

OK, when I started dance lessons this last time, I noticed that many western ME style dancers have taken ME stage names. I don't think I could do this.... although they can sound very beautiful and add to the illusion that the dancer is actually ME. What do you think? When ME people move to the west, they often take western names too, to fit in, but I like hearing their given names....

If this should be a new post, please repost for me?

 

[Shanazel]

There are a couple of threads on this subject somewhere in the archives. They are worth reading if you care to dig around for them.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I see things differently now. Everything is a rehash of something and although some things are still supposedly "authentic" I don't believe that they really are.

Well, "authentic" can mean different things according to the context.

In terms of dance, most of us would argue that "authentic Egyptian dance" is the dance as it's done by people (or professionals) who have grown up in the Egyptian culture. It's recognizable by Egyptians as Egyptian dance.

There is DEFINITELY an "authentic Egyptian dance" when we're talking about belly dance. The problem we seem to have on forums like this is that we never quite get around to describing and defining the elements of that dance. We rely instead on saying "I know it when I see it," which is understandable (I've done it!) but completely useless for someone trying to learn about it.

We also use sort of vague descriptions like "Egyptian is more internal; the energy is circular." While that makes perfect sense to a person who is used to looking at energy patterns in dance, or who knows how the movements are generated muscularly, it's practically gibberish to someone NOT used to thinking/analyzing dance that way.

At one time we had a thread on Americans who "do" Egyptian dance the way the Egyptians do it. A couple of the examples (Shareen el Safy, Sahra Kent) lived and worked in Egypt for a period of time, so you could argue that they somehow absorbed the culture -- but others (like Lucy of D.C.) have only visited or have never been there. So it's possible to develop an authentic approach to say, Egyptian Baladi music, without actually being a Baladi woman of Cairo.

On rehashing: Shareen el Safy once said ALL movement is recycled. (And I think Martha Graham said there were no new movements, only rediscovered ones.) Samia Gamal may have done a movement in the 50s that later fell out of favor, only to be "rediscovered" by Dina years later. This is just the nature of dance, and if you think about it -- ALL art. "Retro" isn't a concept invented in the 90s. But recycling and rediscovering movement patterns doesn't affect the "authenticity" of a dance form.

I go to historical balls and even though there are clear cut instructions from 200 years ago about the steps, clothing, and everything about the dance... it still isn't authentic in my eyes. I'm not that Victorian or Rococo lady with their attitude, I'm not in that time frame so I don't have those notions of society or culture or propriety integrated into my dance and movements.

That's what I love about Ren Faires -- it's the Middle Ages as we would have LIKED them to be. With antibiotics and cheesecake on a stick.

No historical re-enactment is ever going to be 100% authentic, you're right. But I think the idea is to get the FLAVOR of the time period. You get as close to period as you can with costume, food, manners, etc. -- but you can't somehow "forget" that you have cell phones, pepper spray, or advil.

But... Yes I said BUT! I can see where certain things (dances, traditions, etc.) are still very important to a culture or a society and keeping them going as they always were is a deep thing. You can't wash it away.

It's really not about "keeping them going as they always were," and I think that's a big misunderstanding in our dance community. To use your example, when you went to the Victorian ball, the event was TRYING to recreate a long-dead time period. There is no Victorian culture anymore, so this was a historical "re-enactment" with the goal of giving you a flavor of what it might have been like to live in that time and go to that kind of event.

In contrast, there IS an Egyptian culture, and it's very much alive. There is a living breathing dance "culture" as well and we don't have to "re-enact" it. Now the stylization and stage presentation of the dance HAS changed, at least since the earliest video we have. Naima Akef, in her stage presentation, doesn't look much like Randa Kamel, and Sohair Zaki couldn't be farther from Dina in stage presentation. But the underlying dance -- and the underlying musical interpretation -- it's all basically been the same movement generated the same way for the past 50 years. That unity or commonality through the years is what allows us to say "there is an authentic Egyptian dance" even if it takes different "faces" (stylizations) over the years or from region to region.

In America we have the problem of people teaching "Egyptian style" that really ISN'T! Because we don't license or certify teachers, ANYBODY can teach and anybody can call what they teach anything they like. I haven't studied true Lebanese style at all, but there is nothing to prevent me from buying some debke CDs and marketing myself as a Lebanese style dancer/teacher. People who actually KNOW something about Lebanese style (like Lotus Niraj and Suha Deeb and Margot Abdo O'Dell) may know I'm full of it, but unless they point it out on forums like this, it's unlikely I'll ever get "busted" as someone who knows not of what she speaks.

Anyway, the "purists" aren't out to capture in time a certain "vintage" dance. It's never been about holding on to a dead or dying form. Egyptian dance is VERY MUCH alive and kicking! We just want people to know and appreciate what actual authentic Egyptian dance is, (compared to what some people teach as "Egyptian.")

 

[feedyoureye]

....Anyway, the "purists" aren't out to capture in time a certain "vintage" dance. It's never been about holding on to a dead or dying form. Egyptian dance is VERY MUCH alive and kicking! We just want people to know and appreciate what actual authentic Egyptian dance is, (compared to what some people teach as "Egyptian.")

which may be alive and kicking too, but just not Egyptian enough or at all....

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

which may be alive and kicking too, but just not Egyptian enough or at all....

Well when talking about "Egyptian Style" you get into 3 things that I've been able to identify:

1. Egyptian physical technique -- how the movement is generated
2. Egyptian musical interpretation -- how they hear the music and what they acknowledge in the music
3. Egyptian "intensity" and energy and its various degrees.


The physical technique is the main part that many American teachers have started using. You use the "core" muscles; you have a more lifted and upright posture; you visualize generating the movement from a point inside the body instead of outside the body; movement originates from and returns to the center of the body.

I like to think of American Oriental style that uses the Egyptian physical technique as "Egyptianized American." I think of Jillina (who I absolutely adore) when I think of this.

The musical interpretation is usually where a lot of dancers fall short of being "Egyptian enough" and to me, this is the most important part of what defines Egyptian style. If you aren't responding to the music the way an Egyptian dancer would, then no amount of technique is going to make you look Egyptian. A lot of teachers I've met who CLAIM to teach Egyptian style NEVER address the music, and I think that does students a complete disservice.

The "intensity" thing is tricky, and this is where my observations are going to be really vague. Randa and Dina are both very intense dancers, but they don't seem to be like Tigger the Tiger, bouncing and bounding away full of energy. Sohair and Mona Said were both intense in their own way, but it seemed to manifest in deliberate relaxation and wasn't tense like a wound-up spring -- it was more like the intensity I imagine is associated with tarab. Samia Gamal and Nagwa Fouad were very intense dancers with a higher energy level, with performances almost like one long deep inhalation.

I haven't seen that relaxed "intensity" thing in very many American dancers. It's something I'm struggling with, to come to terms with what makes my own dance energy look so bouncy boing-boing. (I'm not opposed to being a bouncy boing-boing style of dancer; I just want to know what specifically is giving off that vibe.) This is also where I think the Russian dancers we see on Youtube often give it away that they're not Egyptian. But I don't really have any better way to describe that right now, so I have to be vague.

:/

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Anyway, the "purists" aren't out to capture in time a certain "vintage" dance. It's never been about holding on to a dead or dying form. Egyptian dance is VERY MUCH alive and kicking! We just want people to know and appreciate what actual authentic Egyptian dance is, (compared to what some people teach as "Egyptian.")

Or belly dance in general!

I wish I could rep you again.