Who?

[Zumarrad]

On second thought, maybe the modern Egyptian style isn't so much a new innovation as taking something that was considered an outlier by the foreign/student BD community and making it the mainstream.

My personal belief, based on a survey of one, is that the "high end" modern Egyptian we've seen over the past 30 years or so has been a combination of folkloric footwork patterns and beledi body work, plus various innovations that individual dancers have brought in, and that others have picked up on and used themselves.

And yes, I think you're right. Have you SEEN ghawzee and awalim footage? It aint that different to what these women are doing (the ones in the second clip are quite lovely IMO, and there's nothing wrong with a shimmy. Unless the concern is that the dancers are also fat and therefore have "vibrato" that way?)

 

[hippyhips]

[And yes, I think you're right. Have you SEEN ghawzee and awalim footage? It aint that different to what these women are doing (the ones in the second clip are quite lovely IMO, and there's nothing wrong with a shimmy. Unless the concern is that the dancers are also fat and therefore have "vibrato" that way?)
[/QUOTE]

I quite liked this one:

 

[Zumarrad]

[And yes, I think you're right. Have you SEEN ghawzee and awalim footage? It aint that different to what these women are doing (the ones in the second clip are quite lovely IMO, and there's nothing wrong with a shimmy. Unless the concern is that the dancers are also fat and therefore have "vibrato" that way?)

I quite liked this one:

[/QUOTE]
I agree, she's actually a nice dancer especially in the first song (which I feel like I should know). She has loads of technique and great musicality, The skirt's a bit of a worry (it looks as though she's tucked up a skirt that's longer, but also, that skirt is very very sheer and towards the end it looks like you can see her butt - or some fleshtoned pants - through it).

 

[hippyhips]

I quite liked this one:

I agree, she's actually a nice dancer especially in the first song (which I feel like I should know). She has loads of technique and great musicality, The skirt's a bit of a worry (it looks as though she's tucked up a skirt that's longer, but also, that skirt is very very sheer and towards the end it looks like you can see her butt - or some fleshtoned pants - through it).
[/QUOTE]

I’ve seen a documentary where many Egyptian dancers don’t really get much of a say in what they wear, they get what they can rent out at any particular time. Which often means costumes can be very ill fitting. So I don’t try and judge by costume. But i enjoyed her dancing very much

 

[Zumarrad]

I’ve seen a documentary where many Egyptian dancers don’t really get much of a say in what they wear, they get what they can rent out at any particular time. Which often means costumes can be very ill fitting. So I don’t try and judge by costume. But i enjoyed her dancing very much

That's actually a really good point. Last year, I think it was, Zahra Abdulrahman had some dancer friends at her zoom hafla who were a folkloric group. They normally worked on a Nile boat but the boat was closed for pandemic reasons. They had managed to organise some other gigs but they didn't actually own costumes, so they had to hire their own costumes from the boat owner - who charged them so much they ended up losing money from the gigs. Through Zara's paid hafla performance and tips from the viewers, they were able to buy themselves two or three nice costumes each (a sa'idi dress, a melaya leff set, maybe another one - the kind you'd get at the Khan al Khalili bellydancer shops, lower cost but nice) which meant they could now take gigs from whomever they pleased without having to hire costumes. A huge benefit to them.

I think we underestimate just how poor the "popular end" performers and people are. I was just watching Mohamed Ramadan's new series which, at the moment, involves some entertainers and there's a scene where a manager is telling some drummers they'll get ten pounds for their night's work. That's about FIFTY AMERICAN CENTS at the moment. I do hope it was meant to be "each".[/QUOTE]

 

[Tourbeau]

My personal belief, based on a survey of one, is that the "high end" modern Egyptian we've seen over the past 30 years or so has been a combination of folkloric footwork patterns and beledi body work, plus various innovations that individual dancers have brought in, and that others have picked up on and used themselves.

When you say "folkloric footwork patterns," are you talking about Reda/Kowmeyya ballet moves, those patterns in the Salimpour "Arabic Family," or something else? There's obviously overlap, but I'm struggling to think of examples in Egyptian dance that have footwork complexity in the same way that Levantine folk dances do. There's something similar to dabkat in Sinai, those sailor's-hornpipe-esque moves in Bamboutiyya, and some leg stuff and hopping in Saidi, but what other Egyptian substyles use a lot of specific footwork? Most of it is just rhythmic walking, isn't it?

And yes, I think you're right. Have you SEEN ghawzee and awalim footage? It aint that different to what these women are doing

Most of the primary-source materials I've seen usually have dancers playing sagat, but other than that, I agree it's similar. It's the fundamental movement set. (I don't know how much to rely on the recreated stuff. Some of it is obviously well sourced and implemented, but other examples, not as much, and in the absence of media that didn't exist prior to the 20th Century, bits and pieces of writing don't tell the whole story.)

(the ones in the second clip are quite lovely IMO, and there's nothing wrong with a shimmy.

I chose those two clips simply because they were the most recent uploads, but they did show the range of dancing. There are still some performers doing a style of enhanced social dancing and/or something similar to what prestige/formally trained dancers do, but others are doing this modern thing that is a fusion of social dancing and more overtly sexualized stuff. The latter isn't exactly burlesque (it has the teasing elements, but not the retro vibe, and it's not stripping because they don't take anything off). I wonder if some of it is actually borrowing from Western music videos, where there is a long tradition of women using stripping as inspiration (everyone from Madonna to Cardi B). Egypt isn't a cultural vacuum.

I originally found this channel one day searching in Arabic for parties with dancing in Imbaba. (Searches are getting more multilingual with each code iteration, but they're not completely integrated yet, and you get different results looking with different specific keywords.) At any rate, YouTube's AI showed me this:

Personally, I would say there's something wrong when the dancer bends over with her rear to the audience and shimmies in that stance. Maybe it is okay in profile or that Randa fast reverse thing which doesn't bend all the way over, but head-down-and-butt-forward is literally too in your face for me.

More clips...

I wish this dancer below wasn't touching herself quite so much, and I won't be stealing her twisted-skirt phallic move (no matter how much bawdiness has always been a vibe for some substyles and personalities), but otherwise, it's fine.

But this?

That guy. If he had been a cartoon, he'd have been a wolf with his tongue lolling and his eyes bugging out. The way he was looking at her was absolutely creepy.

 

[Tourbeau]

Unless the concern is that the dancers are also fat and therefore have "vibrato" that way?)

I'm not reacting to the dancer's size as much as the choreographic emphasis shifting upward. I was originally taught that Egyptian dance was centered in the hips, and the upper body mostly went along for the ride. While chest pops and both shoulder and breast shimmies are part of the canon, especially in the baladi and sha'abi substyles, Egyptian style thinks of upper-body work like pepper in food: a little is pleasantly spicy, some dishes call for more than others, and too much is unpalatable.

But a lot of these dancers are aggressively and provocatively aiming for maximum jiggle. Diana is one of the "better" dancers this channel features.

And so is Bardis, who is no stranger to controversy. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34140406

Both of these women are good performers with solid technical skills, but don't lie--who concentrated on their dancing, and who thought "Booooooooooooooobs"?

Most of the women on this channel are not doing the disinterested shuffle of a bad, native, low-quality dancer. They've got technique, rhythm, and personality, but they're making a lot of performance choices that non-native students are told not to make, especially with the upper body.

 

[Tourbeau]

Are they reacting to an economy where sex sells better than modesty? Are they conceding to the conservative belief that a woman dancing for money and mixed audiences is effectively doing sex work? Are some of them actually contracted as sex workers? I don't know.

Is this a fully realized costume or a skimpy dress and underwear?

"I don't care how much it costs! I said I want the nice dancers!"

I agree, she's actually a nice dancer especially in the first song (which I feel like I should know).

The familiar part sounds like "Lessa faker," but I'm not sure what happens next. Usually when "Lessa faker" is in a cocktail, they finish that segment with the section ending (that's a bad explanation, though you'd know what I meant if you heard it), but then they switch the keyboard from violin to "sha'abi mode" for a transition and I lost where they were going with it. It may be another song.

With all due respect to the Greats of Egyptian Music, it is really hard to identify what is in an instrumental medley when the songs you are listening to match are 45 minutes long apiece. By the time I get to the second movement, I've forgotten what I was aiming for....

The skirt's a bit of a worry (it looks as though she's tucked up a skirt that's longer, but also, that skirt is very very sheer and towards the end it looks like you can see her butt - or some fleshtoned pants - through it).

I was afraid it was just a doubled-over veil tucked into the belt. But, yeah, I'm another vote for a different skirt. From her lines, she does not appear to have had childhood filled with ballet lessons (no shade--neither did I), and the old theory that the dance can benefit from partially concealing the leg mechanics in a big ol' circle skirt is still valid, even if the costuming trends don't support it anymore.

 

[Zumarrad]

When you say "folkloric footwork patterns," are you talking about Reda/Kowmeyya ballet moves, those patterns in the Salimpour "Arabic Family," or something else?

Reda/Kowmeyya. Salimpour stuff isn't Egyptian folklore.

I wouldn't really call Reda/Kowmeyya "ballet moves" either, having done a bit of ballet. There are a lot of crossover steps in the world, they're not all based on a pas de bouree.

 

[hippyhips]

Many of the women in these videos also work as prostitutes, the crossover is definitely there and always has been. The dance can also be a sexual dance, its not a sensual only dance, so that's us putting "our" distain on it, if it doesn't conform to what WE think it should be.

 

[Shanazel]

There is a significant difference in style and technique between dance done for general entertainment and dance done to solicit customers for sex. Each type has its place in society, but I am not willing to lump the solicitation dances above with work done by non-soliciting dancers. That's not disdain; that's differentiation.

 

[hippyhips]

There is a significant difference in style and technique between dance done for general entertainment and dance done to solicit customers for sex. Each type has its place in society, but I am not willing to lump the solicitation dances above with work done by non-soliciting dancers. That's not disdain; that's differentiation.

The distain is from us not "allowing" it to be a valid type of dance because many "look down" on it for various reasons, critising technique, costuming ETC that's the distain. from other documentaries, i got the gist that in street weddings, many of the dancers who are dancing for entertainment are also working as prostitutes, they're not doing dancing for solicitation, but it happens while they are dancing anyway. and surely a prostitute dancing is also a form of entertainment? again, that's on US for not seeing it as such. im not into pole dancing or exotic dance, but i can still see there's an art to it. in all honesty, IMO sex work is work, so i see what they are doing as just another dance form, different technique etc, but its all coming from the same place so i find it intresting to watch and try to understand.

 

[Shanazel]

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I agree that a dance done by a prostitute or a civil engineer for entertaining clients or just for fun is still dancing, but if that dance doesn't meet some basic elements of belly dance or ballet or Irish step dancing, then it is not belly dance or ballet or Irish step dancing. Part of the reason belly dance kinda went to hell in a hand basket for a while is that so many people wanted to do whatever moved them, egotistically expressing themselves with inappropriate movement vocabulary ,costuming, music, etc. while still calling whatever they did belly dance. If anyone protested that moonwalking, grand jetes, and poles had no place in belly dance, they were shouted down and accused of elitism and not appreciating (disdaining) the evolution of belly dance. I'm pleased to see interest in older styles: golden age, Amcab, etc.

 

[hippyhips]

Then it depends what you believe the basic elements are. i believe it does meet the basic elements, on a more folkloric foundation than skarqi or cabaret one. it also comes from a more "organic" growth than someone, "doing whatever moved them." (which if i recall was more of a problem with western practitioners, not Egyptians themselves.) can you give me an example of someone actually doing this in a non hafla or Middle eastern setting? i can understand the frustration of someone (eg) using pole and shaking their hips while calling it belly dancing, and why that would be "grotesque." however, if it was in a halfa, id say there would be a basic understanding that that stuff isn't belly dancing, and done for a bit of fun among those who know better, so long as it was named appropriately. as for the ladies dancing in the previous videos, if the Egyptians call it belly dancing, im not going to argue. They are immersed in their own culture, from day one.

 

[Shanazel]

If someone smacks a basketball with a hocky stick before running bases, it's not automatically baseball just because an American Cubs fan says it is, and I'm not going to fault a Cubs fan from Cairo for pointing that out.

I learned the basic elements of belly dance about 1976 from a middle eastern-born teacher. She was from the fertile crescent area rather than Egypt, but the basics she taught were the foundation of dances I saw in middle eastern restaurants, movies, workshops, and other venues over the years. Folkloric dances are related to belly dance, just like softball is related to baseball, but folkloric dances have elements that distinguish them. The dances done by the women in the videos in question also have distinguishing elements, and should no more be lumped under the heading of belly dance than saiidi or khalleji. Middle eastern dance, yes. Belly dance, no.

 

[hippyhips]

The sport analogy is a false one. Sports is VERY rigorously defined with rules and regulations, dance and art in general is not, which is why its strange to compare them, Especially since Egyptians are masters of their own "sport".

What you learned in 1976 is what belly dance was THEN (and also translated for an American audience) with the moves and vibe adjusted Accordingly to the music played and the vibe of the 70s (in America, i am lead to believe that the restaurant, "the fez," had a big impact on the belly dance scene, which had dancers learn from many different middle eastern countries, so nothing "purist" about it). Ive also learned that Egyptians don't actually consider "moves" in the same way the west does, so what a MENAHT dancer actually thinks of as "moves," is something codified for a western practitioner. they just dance like that at home without learning moves and the names for them. And to be a professional, there's usually other dance training / drilling, OR performance training (which is an issue I've rarely seen touched on these days)

They didn't have mahraganat music then they have that music now (wither you like it or hate it is beside the fact), and the music itself has an Egyptian beat and vibe to it, the dancer will respond accordingly, but it keeps that Egyptian feel in the dance.
It Isn't classical, but even classical was a newcomer at one point with influences from Latin America in the dance.
It isnt folkloric (i didn't actually say it WAS folkloric - i said it had folkloric elements, something which other people have mentioned in more detail here). But, by extension its more of a "dance of the people" since its played in night clubs, where ordinary people go to dance and let off steam.

Ive only been practicing 5 years which is a baby compared to your practicing time (but i have obtained two diplomas and a degree in the dance, drama and music, with various experience in many other styles of dance), however, in that time ive taken many (in person) classes from women who work in the Egyptian scene, i have talked to many middle eastern women who are also belly dancers with their thoughts and views on various subjects, what was considered mistranslations at that time (i actually had to unlearn some basic stuff from my first teacher) ive watched decent documentaries about the belly dance world in Egypt, from Egyptians themselves.

Were you able to find an example of what i asked for earlier?

 

[Shanazel]

No, I didn't bother. I'm also not going to bother to justify anything I said or argue with anything you wrote, some of it very interesting. I've been down this road so many times, and find I'm not all that interested in going down it again. I must be getting old. Let's just agree that I am an old fashioned AmCab dancer who learned a bastardized form of the dance from immigrants and first generation Americans, and is therefore unable to appreciate the evolution of belly dance in Egypt. Carry on in peace.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I agree that a dance done by a prostitute or a civil engineer for entertaining clients or just for fun is still dancing, but if that dance doesn't meet some basic elements of belly dance or ballet or Irish step dancing, then it is not belly dance or ballet or Irish step dancing. Part of the reason belly dance kinda went to hell in a hand basket for a while is that so many people wanted to do whatever moved them, egotistically expressing themselves with inappropriate movement vocabulary ,costuming, music, etc. while still calling whatever they did belly dance. If anyone protested that moonwalking, grand jetes, and poles had no place in belly dance, they were shouted down and accused of elitism and not appreciating (disdaining) the evolution of belly dance. I'm pleased to see interest in older styles: golden age, Amcab, etc.

THIS

 

[Zorba]

No, I didn't bother. I'm also not going to bother to justify anything I said or argue with anything you wrote, some of it very interesting. I've been down this road so many times, and find I'm not all that interested in going down it again. I must be getting old. Let's just agree that I am an old fashioned AmCab dancer who learned a bastardized form of the dance from immigrants and first generation Americans, and is therefore unable to appreciate the evolution of belly dance in Egypt. Carry on in peace.

Shades of Bhuz in this thread methinks...

 

[hippyhips]

No, I didn't bother. I'm also not going to bother to justify anything I said or argue with anything you wrote, some of it very interesting. I've been down this road so many times, and find I'm not all that interested in going down it again. I must be getting old. Let's just agree that I am an old fashioned AmCab dancer who learned a bastardized form of the dance from immigrants and first generation Americans, and is therefore unable to appreciate the evolution of belly dance in Egypt. Carry on in peace.

i never said you weren't able to participate, bit of an over dramatization. what i Am saying, is that we don't get to say what is and what isn't belly dance in another person culture, especially if we don't actually practice, or emulate what the dance is IN that culture. i actually really love the 70s AMCAB vibe, its a lovely and sweet style, with an emphasis on soft AND strong, and its really interesting to see the different types of belly dance in one style, done out of love. Today however, there's just more and better access to quality information (as mentioned previously). This doesn't mean that we view amcab as being a "lesser" art from, far from it, we can have better discussions about what we are seeing with people from those cultures. ive done a bit of studying into belly dance in the 70s both amcab and Egyptian and they are both quite different. AND, (gonna betray myself here) there IS a vibe "missing" from todays styles that seem to drop out of favour gradually from the mid to late 80s and (from what im seeing) its a cabaret style of some basic folkloric footwork. MUCH less emphasis on isolation (very much so in amcab rather than Egyptian) .

i offer this lovely video (part 1 of 2) as a peace offering for any offence caused:

i absolutely love that video, its such a time capsule and (i think) it captures alot of what you guys talk about when you are talking about older amcab styles and dance work?

i also offer "the fez" documentary about the restaurant what have clips of dancers (im not sure if this is available elsewhere for free) but i absolutely LOVED seeing these:

https://daturaonline.com/programs/the-fez-documentary-by-roxxanne-shelaby

this is the trailer:

Im going to be honest with my opinion here. i think alot of newbs here are exasperated by sharing videos of current performers (likeable or otherwise) and just hearing, " i don't like it, its not like it was" ad nauseum, with little to no discourse on the dance that was just shared (in fact, id love to read a thread discussing the differences in the earlier styles, taking the dance apart, whats done and not done today, and delving deep into them, with no hatred of either styles.)

HOWEVER, i honestly believe alot of the problems in belly dance today (in the west at least) is the lack of "performance," that is to say, theres not as many places today for public performance opportunities to gain that experience, which to me is ALOT to do with it, and its clear to me that dancers in the 70s really had that experience as a sold foundation. this has been a problem for many different types of performance arts and has been in decline since the 80s, but thats a WHOOOLLLEEE other topic. IMO maghranat style is just another style in the belly dance sphere not the whole of belly dance itself.