Who?

[Shanazel]

No offense taken.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

No, I didn't bother. I'm also not going to bother to justify anything I said or argue with anything you wrote, some of it very interesting. I've been down this road so many times, and find I'm not all that interested in going down it again. I must be getting old. Let's just agree that I am an old fashioned AmCab dancer who learned a bastardized form of the dance from immigrants and first generation Americans, and is therefore unable to appreciate the evolution of belly dance in Egypt. Carry on in peace.

I'd much rather learn and encourage others this style instead of the style now used in Egypt. Just my personal preference.

 

[Tourbeau]

what i Am saying, is that we don't get to say what is and what isn't belly dance in another person culture, especially if we don't actually practice, or emulate what the dance is IN that culture.

I have lots of thoughts about this angle, and I have been resisting the urge to post them, because I don't like what Zorba called "Shades of Bhuz," either. I don't care if people disagree with me in a civil way. You don't grow if nobody ever challenges you to think of things differently, and you don't learn if nobody corrects your mistakes. Debates that turn into arguments that feel like (and sometimes are) personal attacks don't encourage growth or learning.

Im going to be honest with my opinion here. i think alot of newbs here are exasperated by sharing videos of current performers (likeable or otherwise) and just hearing, " i don't like it, its not like it was" ad nauseum, with little to no discourse on the dance that was just shared (in fact, id love to read a thread discussing the differences in the earlier styles, taking the dance apart, whats done and not done today, and delving deep into them, with no hatred of either styles.)

Well, if you want "Shades of Bhuz," I can post a manifesto on the tyranny of the self-esteem philosophy in BD, and how we are a creative form that defiantly believes criticism is a thought crime, regardless of situation or approach. I can discuss whether Jeff Koons' Balloon Dogs are stupid or brilliant, or whether I think Robert Pattinson makes a good Batman or not. I can say whether Stephen King should have left "The Shining" alone and never written "Dr. Sleep," and I can argue why I like Niall Horan's post-1D career better than Harry Styles'. But NO ONE CAN CRITICIZE ANOTHER BELLY DANCER. This is their ART. They have FEELINGS. The joy from their moment of basking in the audience's applause MUST NEVER BE TAINTED. As if every other person who makes tangible art or performs can invest their creative energy and soul into a project but won't take it personally when somebody else doesn't get it and says so. Other dancers freak out at the thought of even analyzing a DEAD dancer's performance as an academic exercise. How do we ever expect to be taken seriously when every other artistic discipline expects you to grow a thick skin if you want to make art for public consumption, and we're whining that every dance performance and dancer must be off limits to critique? Everybody else sees a difference between providing critical feedback to students or thoughtful analysis of professional output, and being a mean jerk, but we're a zero-tolerance-for-bad-vibes art...and that's where your desired discussion about different styles went.

HOWEVER, i honestly believe alot of the problems in belly dance today (in the west at least) is the lack of "performance," that is to say, theres not as many places today for public performance opportunities to gain that experience, which to me is ALOT to do with it, and its clear to me that dancers in the 70s really had that experience as a sold foundation.

I don't think it's just there aren't enough opportunities. It's that the opportunities changed. Older forms of the dance were done to live music, which required a more nuanced understanding of what you were dancing to, and it required improv skills. Now, most foreign-student performances are choreographed to recorded music, and even the quality of live music that dancers over there have is deteriorated. (Unless you're Dina or Fifi, who can afford a full orchestra?) And if foreign students want to learn canned combinations and choreographies, that's what many teachers, even native teachers, will teach because...money. You're not going to fly Tito or somebody halfway around the world for a small turnout when half of the participants are already grousing about having to attend the workshop in order to dance in the show.

IMO maghranat style is just another style in the belly dance sphere not the whole of belly dance itself.

From what I see online, dance to mahraganat is evolving along three lines: how native guys dance (which looks like hip hop, lots of enthusiastic jumping around, and occasionally...line dancing?), how professional belly dancers dance (which is somewhat modernized raqs sha'abi), and how native women dance (which looks like a fusion of raqs sha'abi and what the guys do). I'm not going to get into the whole argument about how mahraganat fits into the dance world and what it is or isn't, but I think it is very similar to the way raqs al assaya evolved with a men's tahtib style, a women's flirty-little-bamboo-cane style, and a women's hybrid style with tahtib elements like Fifi does.

Personally, I think mahraganat is very testosterone-fueled music made almost entirely by and for males, so the guys' dance style is what I defer to, but every other dancer...you do you and decide which flavor is the right one for you and your audience.

 

[hippyhips]

I'd much rather learn and encourage others this style instead of the style now used in Egypt. Just my personal preference.

Why not both? both are relevant to exploration of the history and culture

 

[hippyhips]

I can post a manifesto on the tyranny of the self-esteem philosophy in BD, and how we are a creative form that defiantly believes criticism is a thought crime, regardless of situation or approach. But NO ONE CAN CRITICIZE ANOTHER BELLY DANCER. This is their ART. They have FEELINGS. The joy from their moment of basking in the audience's applause MUST NEVER BE TAINTED. As if every other person who makes tangible art or performs can invest their creative energy and soul into a project but won't take it personally when somebody else doesn't get it and says so. Other dancers freak out at the thought of even analyzing a DEAD dancer's performance as an academic exercise. How do we ever expect to be taken seriously when every other artistic discipline expects you to grow a thick skin if you want to make art for public consumption, and we're whining that every dance performance and dancer must be off limits to critique? Everybody else sees a difference between providing critical feedback to students or thoughtful analysis of professional output, and being a mean jerk, but we're a zero-tolerance-for-bad-vibes art...and that's where your desired discussion about different styles went.

i would actually read this manifesto myself. i Quite like academic research and papers myself, i come from a background in doing so ALOT. So i would haver no problems with this. Not sure if what i wrote came across as i wanted it to though, im not against critique at all.

I don't think it's just there aren't enough opportunities. It's that the opportunities changed. Older forms of the dance were done to live music, which required a more nuanced understanding of what you were dancing to, and it required improv skills. Now, most foreign-student performances are choreographed to recorded music, and even the quality of live music that dancers over there have is deteriorated. (Unless you're Dina or Fifi, who can afford a full orchestra?) And if foreign students want to learn canned combinations and choreographies, that's what many teachers, even native teachers, will teach because...money. You're not going to fly Tito or somebody halfway around the world for a small turnout when half of the participants are already grousing about having to attend the workshop in order to dance in the show.

This is interesting too, i guess im talking about live performances in the western sphere in general though. but performances measures and changes to style because of this interest me greatly too. i would love to hear more of your thoughts



QUOTE="Tourbeau, post: 244233, member: 40150"]
From what I see online, dance to mahraganat is evolving along three lines: how native guys dance (which looks like hip hop, lots of enthusiastic jumping around, and occasionally...line dancing?), how professional belly dancers dance (which is somewhat modernized raqs sha'abi), and how native women dance (which looks like a fusion of raqs sha'abi and what the guys do). I'm not going to get into the whole argument about how mahraganat fits into the dance world and what it is or isn't, but I think it is very similar to the way raqs al assaya evolved with a men's tahtib style, a women's flirty-little-bamboo-cane style, and a women's hybrid style with tahtib elements like Fifi does.
[/QUOTE]

again i would love to hear you thoughts on this (with examples, so i better understand what your referencing, no pressure to do so only if your up for it)

 

[Tourbeau]

Not sure if what i wrote came across as i wanted it to though, im not against critique at all.

I don't want to bore the Bhuzzers here who've already slogged through plenty of my rants, so I'll just repeat that the most frustrating part of my dance experience was teachers who only did half of their teaching job and skipped the useful-but-necessary part of correcting mistakes. Yes, of course, nobody wants to be embarrassed in class, but did that justify my first teacher who didn't explain the weight shifts of a choreography and left me flailing for months as the only beginner in a mixed-level class? Or the private-lesson teacher who responded to my request for help making my arm work better with, "Eh, they don't look too bad..."? Or the teacher with the drive-by criticism "It's a shame about what happened to your performance at our hafla last week" when I wasn't aware anything had gone terribly wrong, and then she said, "Oh, nevermind." when I asked her to clarify?

Do you ever wonder why so many students fall short of their potential? Why some spend years dancing but stop getting better after a year or two, or they never develop into a mature dancer with their own voice, or they go off the rails with half-baked, self-indulgent nonsense? They are paying teachers to shape them into unstructured blobs!

Students think they should be allowed to refuse the necessary feedback of the learning process, and they justify it with ego fragility, and teachers, desperate to retain students, go along with it. "I don't want to hear about my mistakes. I'm an artist and this is my art, and therefore, it is beautiful. Besides, I'm just here to have fun."

I'm sorry, isn't being as good as you can be at something more fun than not being that good at it? Isn't making art you're proud of more fun than cringing when you watch the video of your hafla performance? Yeah, yeah, perfectionism sucks and nobody likes a narcissist, but come on. Teachers defraud students when they withhold necessary correction and feed them vague compliments about how everybody looks wonderful. If you can't find a balance of tactful correction and encouragement, maybe you shouldn't be teaching.

This is interesting too, i guess im talking about live performances in the western sphere in general though. but performances measures and changes to style because of this interest me greatly too. i would love to hear more of your thoughts.

The old club-days performances often had live bands, but even when the dancers used recordings, they were expected to navigate a long set. I don't know if Norma is still active online somewhere, but she was mentored by Princess Madiha in Michigan back in the day, and she used to talk about their "graduation test," which was a full routine and an entire side of a vinyl album. (Anybody remember? "Bellydance Seduction" by Ziad Rahbani maybe?) At any rate, dancers were expected to perform to cohesive suites of music over significant time intervals. Now? The average hafla slot where I'm at is five minutes, unless you're the headliner. Even if you get a party/performing gig that is longer, you probably assemble your set music like Lego blocks. Nobody is paying attention to the compositional rules of how you get from one maqam or qalab to another. There may not be any taqsim. Dancing used to require more transitional skills, because the music had more transitional skills. Now, most longer sets are collections of discrete pieces. That's not to say a modern set doesn't still require a lot of mastery of a lot of individual pieces, just that things are a bit different, and not necessarily in a richer, more complex way.

again i would love to hear you thoughts on this (with examples, so i better understand what your referencing, no pressure to do so only if your up for it)

Mahraganat or assaya? I do want to back up and clarify two things. First, by saying "men's style" or "women's style," I'm just speaking about origins and traditions, not trying to say who can or can't do a style. Go where your muse takes you. Second, this analogy between the two types of dance isn't a perfect match. Speaking anecdotally, I have the impression native women are more likely to do the coy-dainty-cane assaya than the hybrid Fifi tahtib, but that is partially coming from what I've been taught. I don't have as strong a sense about which way native women dancers swing on the issue of mahraganat because videos of women dancing socially just aren't as common. There's more disincentive for women uploading public-viewable videos online than for men. But I'm not a TikTok person and they may have more content I'm not seeing.

 

[Tourbeau]

Anyway, here come some mahraganat clips. It would be a full-time job to watch every one of them on YouTube. You can find more than you'll ever have time to watch if you plug in مهرجان "mahragan" (singular, which picks up both "mahragan" and "mahraganat") plus رقص "raqs." If you're into knifework, add بالمطوه or بالسكين (bil matwah or bil sikeen, two different words for "with the knife"). You can also put in a specific place in Egypt, which you can pick off Wikipedia or Google Translate. Also, many of the mahraganat artists have a "live" channel in addition to their official video one, and you can get to see crowd dancing that way--just add حفلة "hafla" to the artist's name and you'll find them. Those tend to be 10+minute clips, so if you've got time to sift through them....

A random guy dancing

This guy is from Alexandria

Here's a guy with a knife

A pair of guys dancing

Mutasim Fox going crazy in the studio where Mido Gad & Piano record (He's got a whole channel, and seriously, I think I found where Michael Jackson's dance talent went when he died.)

 

[Tourbeau]

Go, little dude! Go, little dude!

Bedo is often hired to dance in music videos. He's teaching here.

Hijabis dancing

Not sure where these dancers are are, but the caption says it's a store opening, and the car has an Egyptian license plate.

Mixed dance team

 

[Tourbeau]

Mixed crowd at a wedding with Oka performing

Woman dancing

She's the bride and she's got a knife

Older clip of a girl dancing with knives

I'm not going to spend time a lot of time looking for clips of professional dancers using mahraganat, because most of them are foreigners and everybody knows what belly dance looks like. And the dancers who teach mahraganat choreographies abroad (like in the US) drive me nuts. When I see a dancer in leggings and a crop top with a hip scarf come bounding across the stage like Dick Van Dyke in a dream sequence, it's "Check, please." I just can't...but feel free to post 'em if you got 'em.

Here are some dancers who were probably not pulled off prestige hotel gigs to work this party.

 

[Tourbeau]

And this happened with Oka in a movie...

Here's Oka a third time* (in the red puffer) goofing around with a line dance. Since he is a foundational artist of mahraganat, I guess if this makes sense to him, we don't really have a counterargument.

And while technically, I think this is supposed to fall on the other side of the line as techno-sha'abi and not mahraganat (it's a pretty blurry line that seems to exist primarily for Hani Shaker to complain about half of the stuff), here's another example of line dancing with our old friend Omar Kamal from the Lurdiana thread.

* Yes, three is a lot of clips from one guy, but I find there are only a handful of mahraganat artists who understand how to make interesting records, and Mohamed Oka is one of them. Many of them just loop a track and lay vocals on it, which might be fine when you have really good lyrics and an audience that understands them, but as a dancer, I need more...a few strong accents, a bridge, a change of tempo or rhythmic flow, something. Otherwise, you're giving me drilling music, not dancing music. I mean, even if you don't like mahraganat, you can probably concede this is a banger. (The studio mix is better, but this clip has dancing.)

 

[Zorba]

I don't want to bore the Bhuzzers here who've already slogged through plenty of my rants, so I'll just repeat that the most frustrating part of my dance experience was teachers who only did half of their teaching job and skipped the useful-but-necessary part of correcting mistakes. Yes, of course, nobody wants to be embarrassed in class, but did that justify my first teacher who didn't explain the weight shifts of a choreography and left me flailing for months as the only beginner in a mixed-level class? Or the private-lesson teacher who responded to my request for help making my arm work better with, "Eh, they don't look too bad..."? Or the teacher with the drive-by criticism "It's a shame about what happened to your performance at our hafla last week" when I wasn't aware anything had gone terribly wrong, and then she said, "Oh, nevermind." when I asked her to clarify?

Oh boy, I can relate...

One of my VERY early teachers was leading us in simple downhips. "Down, down, down" she said. "Down, down, DOWN!" "Uh, somebody isn't getting it, but I *think* I'm OK..." Finally, it was "DOWN ZORBA DOWN!!!" "Oh, its me!"

Next day I called her and said "Thank you for yelling at me in class..." She fell all over herself apologizing! I told her, "No, I mean it. THANK YOU! If you don't tell me I'm doing something wrong, I'll never know!" She was kind of flabberghasted - but I've told every teacher I've ever had this story and encouraged them to correct me as much as necessary. I don't have an ego, I'm certainly not the Goddess's gift to Belly Dance. In fact, one teacher once told me that another student/dance sister asked her why she was "on Zorba's shit all the time?" - "Because he asked me to!" which was absolutely correct.

Even my current teacher once told me that "When I critique you, I'm not trying to put you down but..." I interrupted her with: "No, you're doing your JOB as a teacher! Keep it coming!"

I don't grok why teachers are often afraid to correct their students. I get it that its a delicate balance having done some dance teaching myself. But it needs to be done!

 

[hippyhips]

Ok Wow, Thank you for the long reply and hearing your thoughts, its very much appreciated.

teachers who only did half of their teaching job and skipped the useful-but-necessary part of correcting mistakes. Yes, of course, nobody wants to be embarrassed in class, but did that justify my first teacher who didn't explain the weight shifts of a choreography and left me flailing for months as the only beginner in a mixed-level class? Or the private-lesson teacher who responded to my request for help making my arm work better with, "Eh, they don't look too bad..."? Or the teacher with the drive-by criticism "It's a shame about what happened to your performance at our hafla last week" when I wasn't aware anything had gone terribly wrong, and then she said, "Oh, nevermind." when I asked her to clarify?

i completely understand this. Personally ive struggled trying to find an intermediate class, or to find a teacher who will do this, and i think part of the reason why many DONT, is that there is alot of people wanting to belly dance for the social and fun side, but there are fewer people who get get bitten by the bug and want to make progress in their dance. Ive actually asked a teacher to do this (point out weight shifts and imbalances etc), but she did not do this (even in the intermediate class she didn't do this. Once you get beyond beginner, your kind of on your own (in the uk and Ireland at least). as for the hafla comment, i get the vibe it was just a way to insult, as her reply was VERRYYY wrong and... back handily, passive aggressive. , and i have heard from other dancers who have had similar remarks at haflas.

Students think they should be allowed to refuse the necessary feedback of the learning process, and they justify it with ego fragility, and teachers, desperate to retain students, go along with it. "I don't want to hear about my mistakes. I'm an artist and this is my art, and therefore, it is beautiful. Besides, I'm just here to have fun."

If the dancer IS really there just to have fun, then the " no feed back" is grand IMO, as they're not there to progress really, but they cant really call themselves and artist, because they don't care about it as an art, i suppose.

I'm sorry, isn't being as good as you can be at something more fun than not being that good at it? Isn't making art you're proud of more fun than cringing when you watch the video of your hafla performance? Yeah, yeah, perfectionism sucks and nobody likes a narcissist, but come on. Teachers defraud students when they withhold necessary correction and feed them vague compliments about how everybody looks wonderful. If you can't find a balance of tactful correction and encouragement, maybe you shouldn't be teaching.

for you and me, yes, for those who were bitten by the bug and wanted to dance, its vital part of the fun progress, but many people don't want that, i cant validate that or invalidate that. teachers need money to put classes on, and it generates interest. maybe its just a different culture here, but IMO any student past beginners or "fun / social" dancing SHOULD be doing this, but like i say, your on your own.

The old club-days performances often had live bands, but even when the dancers used recordings, they were expected to navigate a long set. I don't know if Norma is still active online somewhere, but she was mentored by Princess Madiha in Michigan back in the day, and she used to talk about their "graduation test," which was a full routine and an entire side of a vinyl album. (Anybody remember? "Bellydance Seduction" by Ziad Rahbani maybe?) At any rate, dancers were expected to perform to cohesive suites of music over significant time intervals. Now? The average hafla slot where I'm at is five minutes, unless you're the headliner. Even if you get a party/performing gig that is longer, you probably assemble your set music like Lego blocks. Nobody is paying attention to the compositional rules of how you get from one maqam or qalab to another. There may not be any taqsim. Dancing used to require more transitional skills, because the music had more transitional skills. Now, most longer sets are collections of discrete pieces. That's not to say a modern set doesn't still require a lot of mastery of a lot of individual pieces, just that things are a bit different, and not necessarily in a richer, more complex way.

Could that be the difference between someone who has more of a "school" (im thinking like the Salimpour style of teaching) way of teaching and graduating? rather than the local "drop in" classes, and a hafla where anyone can book an allocated time slot? Maybe this also has to do with the rise and fall in popularity in belly dance at any given decade, where there would be more opportunities to have a more studied and controlled dance class, therefore better quality in a hafla? I know im over looking the "snowflake" (i hate that word now) aspect of the students right now, but I don't dismiss it Entirely, as i know there are people like me who DO want the "proper" Style dance class and constructive criticism of performance, but the numbers right now are MUCH less than those who want to do it for fun. i do know, however, that many people over here (of all ages) are not used to constructive criticism (i thrive on it), especially if they have never done any kind of performance arts, so they just think, "teacher thinks im rubbish", for someone who wants to do better and learn more - this is great, for someone doing it for fun.... it can be soul destroying. i used to give drama classes for adults, and this was the distinction between the two types of students when in classes. Obviously, when the student progressed thet got better partsr, but the students that were only there for the craic, most didn't care what part they got.

That's not to say a modern set doesn't still require a lot of mastery of a lot of individual pieces, just that things are a bit different, and not necessarily in a richer, more complex way.

This is interests me, as i find that even with the less complex music in "classical" Egyptian styles, the dance was more complex than the music (when i think of some orchestras were not as "full" for many dancers, yet the dancers made the music full. and todays complexities are.... well.... a bit different, its more precision than complex, (even though the music isnt as "full" as it would have been with a full orchestra back in the day) this makes it different, not good or bad but id love to know more about the complexities of all the "older" styles. BTW - ive seen a growing shift away from this ultra precision on to more varied work.

Dancing used to require more transitional skills, because the music had more transitional skills

i would LOVE to know more about this. Honestly, i think theres a market for it, even if its just online. people are recognising there's a completely different zeitgeist thats almost missing from todays dances, and i DONT think anyone can call themselves a proper artist or dancer unless they're continually studying and these skills are VITAL to know.

I don't have as strong a sense about which way native women dancers swing on the issue of mahraganat because videos of women dancing socially just aren't as common. There's more disincentive for women uploading public-viewable videos online

Its a shame we are not seeing this really, we know why, and im sure the Egyptian women's ideas and answers are nuanced on the subject.

Again, thank you for your thoughts, i really appreciated them, and i know it must have been a pain to repeat yourself and im sure youve heard my thoughts on the subject many many times too, but i find these debates invaluable with so many different ideas to ponder on and how to improve things for everyone, so thank you again

 

[hippyhips]

Also, thank you for the videos, much appreciated

 

[ElizabethArena]

i never said you weren't able to participate, bit of an over dramatization. what i Am saying, is that we don't get to say what is and what isn't belly dance in another person culture, especially if we don't actually practice, or emulate what the dance is IN that culture. i actually really love the 70s AMCAB vibe, its a lovely and sweet style, with an emphasis on soft AND strong, and its really interesting to see the different types of belly dance in one style, done out of love. Today however, there's just more and better access to quality information (as mentioned previously). This doesn't mean that we view amcab as being a "lesser" art from, far from it, we can have better discussions about what we are seeing with people from those cultures. ive done a bit of studying into belly dance in the 70s both amcab and Egyptian and they are both quite different. AND, (gonna betray myself here) there IS a vibe "missing" from todays styles that seem to drop out of favour gradually from the mid to late 80s and (from what im seeing) its a cabaret style of some basic folkloric footwork. MUCH less emphasis on isolation (very much so in amcab rather than Egyptian) .

i offer this lovely video (part 1 of 2) as a peace offering for any offence caused:

i absolutely love that video, its such a time capsule and (i think) it captures alot of what you guys talk about when you are talking about older amcab styles and dance work?

i also offer "the fez" documentary about the restaurant what have clips of dancers (im not sure if this is available elsewhere for free) but i absolutely LOVED seeing these:

https://daturaonline.com/programs/the-fez-documentary-by-roxxanne-shelaby

this is the trailer:

Im going to be honest with my opinion here. i think alot of newbs here are exasperated by sharing videos of current performers (likeable or otherwise) and just hearing, " i don't like it, its not like it was" ad nauseum, with little to no discourse on the dance that was just shared (in fact, id love to read a thread discussing the differences in the earlier styles, taking the dance apart, whats done and not done today, and delving deep into them, with no hatred of either styles.)

HOWEVER, i honestly believe alot of the problems in belly dance today (in the west at least) is the lack of "performance," that is to say, theres not as many places today for public performance opportunities to gain that experience, which to me is ALOT to do with it, and its clear to me that dancers in the 70s really had that experience as a sold foundation. this has been a problem for many different types of performance arts and has been in decline since the 80s, but thats a WHOOOLLLEEE other topic. IMO maghranat style is just another style in the belly dance sphere not the whole of belly dance itself.

I love that 1982 video -the women are all so beautiful -no tattoos . I’ve watched it a few times already. I like how the moves are more sinuous than I’ve seen in other instructional DVDs . There’s something so medieval about it too. Is Part 2 anywhere out there?

Never mind -found Part 2.

 

[Tourbeau]

i completely understand this. Personally ive struggled trying to find an intermediate class, or to find a teacher who will do this, and i think part of the reason why many DONT, is that there is alot of people wanting to belly dance for the social and fun side, but there are fewer people who get get bitten by the bug and want to make progress in their dance. Ive actually asked a teacher to do this (point out weight shifts and imbalances etc), but she did not do this (even in the intermediate class she didn't do this. Once you get beyond beginner, your kind of on your own (in the uk and Ireland at least).

I think this is a very common experience, and unless you live somewhere with a truly skilled teacher in the style you want, it is THE experience. It requires a lot of insight and dedication to self correct, and even many dancers who sincerely want to be successful can't do it. (If it was easy to figure out what you were doing wrong and fix it, who wouldn't?) And I'm talking about basic stuff like wonky postural issues, not even complex ideas like musical interpretation and stylistic nuances.

To make things worse, this is self-propagating. Prior to COVID expanding online classes, in many areas, after a year or two, you'd max out your local choices and have to subsist on an educational diet of workshops and videos. Workshops rarely correct your misunderstandings and videos never do, and at some point, even those things would start feeling less useful--not because you've become so great, but because their target market is usually "students engaged enough to clear the first rung or two of the ladder." Learning the same things over and over just lulls you into the idea that you're ready to start teaching...but when did you leave the intermediate level? You didn't. You just accrued seniority. So how are you going to train advanced dancers when you're not one yourself? Will your ego even let you accept help after you've started to build a reputation as "an expert" and "a professional"?

If the dancer IS really there just to have fun, then the " no feed back" is grand IMO, as they're not there to progress really, but they cant really call themselves and artist, because they don't care about it as an art, i suppose.

To a point... It's pretty difficult to injury yourself belly dancing most of the time, but it's not impossible, either. It's more likely you'd fall into habits that are a challenge to correct if you change teachers later, but that can happen with equally valid stylistic differences, too. Are we bored enough to start arguing about that old laserdisc you linked and heels down vs. pushing through the foot on mayas yet?

maybe its just a different culture here, but IMO any student past beginners or "fun / social" dancing SHOULD be doing this, but like i say, your on your own.

Batten down the hatches for more ranting...

Honestly, I don't have a problem with recreational students. I am one. The vast majority of the dance community's population are non-professionals, whether they're beginners who may not stick around longer than a few class cycles or serious hobbyists who dance for years. I don't think we should gatekeep our entire system so that only the students with the best professional potential get opportunities. There should be room in our tent for the inexperienced to get experience, the recreationalists to simply enjoy dancing, and the non-commercially-viable to perform for friendly audiences.

My problem is when we let the most ignorant, least respectful students control the educational process--ones who expect classes to accommodate their unreliability and lack of effort. Teachers often feel compelled to indulge the worst students because there is too much competition for not enough work.

Exhibit A: I was taking classes at a studio some years ago, and the owner brought in a guest teacher for a run of more expensive classes billed as intermediate/advanced. In one class, the guest teacher did an exercise (the whole class at once) where we were paired up. #1 would do a short improv, and then #2 would attempt to recreate what #1 had done, then we'd switch jobs and repeat. My partner, a dancer I didn't know, told me to go first, so I did some stuff (I don't remember exactly what, but, you know, hipwork, traveling shimmies, etc.). When her turn came to repeat me, she stood there and did chest- and hip-circle isolations and snake arms...which weren't what I'd done at all. Then she laughed and said she didn't know how to do any of what I'd done because she'd only been dancing a few weeks and she missed the first two sessions of her beginner's class to boot. Bonus! The studio owner came up to me after and said, "Thanks for being so patient with her. She really didn't belong in this class, but she heard about it and wanted to come, and I was afraid if I said she couldn't, she and her friend (also in attendance) would find another teacher."

Exhibit B: I was taking a mixed-level class at a studio with a group of mostly regulars, and one time, we learned the exact same intro of a choreography four weeks in a row--every class for a month--because somebody different would show up each week, and the teacher would start over for them, even knowing from past experience, two of them wouldn't come back to finish learning the routine because they'd been popping in and out of her classes for years.

These are not examples of "We need to understand that not everyone can or wants to make the same learning commitment as the hardcore students." They are "This is a stupid way of teaching. You are disrespecting the material (which is somebody's culture you're being so cavalier with, BTW), you are undermining your own expertise, and you are wasting everybody's time and money."

Yes, I know. Many teachers can barely keep one class going, much less tiered ones, and the majority of students are doing this as a part-time hobby. If you can have more than one level, I agree it's fair to expect a student to complete the first part before advancing to the classes where not everything is broken down, even if it takes them a few cycles to catch all of the intro lessons.

Bottom line:

1. If you don't meet the criteria to participate in an advanced class, but you still want to attend, you can pay to watch, not diminish the quality of it with your need for remedial help. (Heaven have mercy on you if your idea of "fun" is being the student who can't keep up.) And, yes, you can pay the full fee, because most studios can't afford to let students audit the more expensive classes. Nobody prorates tuition by how graceful you are or how well you remember choreography, nobody gets a refund for knowing the material already, and nobody gets a guarantee of outcome for attending. You are paying for access to information, not an assurance of quality retention.

2. If you know you have to teach mixed-level drop-ins, teach modules whenever you can, not linear progressions of material. It's a problem when you teach a choreography from the beginning so that students rehearse the first part 40 times, the middle 20 times, and the end 10 times anyway. Get some audio editing software and break the song up. That way, when Bitsy McFlake only shows up to Class #3 of the sequence, she gets what she paid for, an hour of instruction and dance for 3:15-4:05 of the song, and it doesn't unfairly burden everybody else. Bitsy can schedule a private lesson if she wants to catch up.

Could that be the difference between someone who has more of a "school" (im thinking like the Salimpour style of teaching) way of teaching and graduating? rather than the local "drop in" classes, and a hafla where anyone can book an allocated time slot?

Like most dancers, Princess Madiha had a system (she even had a teaching video at one point), but her "graduation" was more a quality check than a standardized test. She did the bookings for her dancers in one of the largest expat communities in North America. She didn't want to send anybody out under her name without knowing they were solid.

I inquired about taking a private lesson with her when I was visiting Michigan years ago, and she referred me to one of her student teachers instead. Her policy was you fully committed to her classes or you didn't, so good for her.

Tourbeau said:
Dancing used to require more transitional skills, because the music had more transitional skills

i would LOVE to know more about this. Honestly, i think theres a market for it, even if its just online. people are recognising there's a completely different zeitgeist thats almost missing from todays dances, and i DONT think anyone can call themselves a proper artist or dancer unless they're continually studying and these skills are VITAL to know.

I think it is a combination of live music being more dynamic, and dancers being better connected to their music. Even if you work off of a record, if you have the memory of an emotional experience of dancing to live music, you've got something to latch onto. How are you going to pull Tarab out of thin air with a record now if you don't even know what it feels like?

But if I live to be as old as Methuselah, I will never understand why there are not more music nerds in BD. The Single Most Fundamental Reason to Dance is "I heard this music and it made me want to move." Screw exercise and sequins! Why are you dancing if music is at the bottom of your priority list?!?

 

[Shanazel]

(unlurks long enough to say YES! to "Why are you dancing if music is at the bottom of your priority list?!? ")

I once got a new student who wanted to do a solo dance to (I kid you not) Carol of the Bells. When I explained students were expected to use Middle Eastern music, she informed me that she didn't listen to Middle Eastern music and wasn't interested in it. This was a person who had taught "belly dance" in another community for several years. I am rarely speechless, but that one caught me flat-footed.

 

[Zorba]

Learning the same things over and over just lulls you into the idea that you're ready to start teaching...but when did you leave the intermediate level? You didn't. You just accrued seniority. So how are you going to train advanced dancers when you're not one yourself? Will your ego even let you accept help after you've started to build a reputation as "an expert" and "a professional"?

A very good point. I consider myself to be somewhere between the top side of mediocre and the bottom side of "mere competence". Which is why I don't teach regular Belly Dance. I started too late in life, I have too many body issues that are getting worse as I age, etc, etc (See my "Leg pain" thread for but one example.). I'm known for my veilwork and finger cymbals - and will teach specialty workshops and classes in those. Then tell the students who the REAL experts are in those areas if they want more...

I also have been doing some one-on-one coaching, mainly in the area of stagecraft and emotional projection. The first is fairly easy to teach if you've done a bunch of performing, the latter is virtually impossible for anyone to teach - it mainly involves giving the student permission to do what she already knows how to do and to "let it flow"! The student has to be able to relax enough and trust the teacher enough to be able to emote. I can relate, my main teacher for 15 years squawked at me about this for many years, and it took me over a decade to BEGIN to understand what the HELL she was talking about! And I'm still learning myself.

I do assist my regular instructor with her beginner class, often doing the move de jour up front while she walks the class for one-on-one. Sometimes this means I'm showing how NOT to do the move!! I will also occasionally give perspective to a beginner when appropriate AND I know the student well enough. I've also been tapped to sub teach on occasion - and frankly, I *SUCK* at it! I can teach Greek Folk Dance all day long, but I really have no business teaching basic Belly Dance.

Point well taken about consistency. I'm going to be teaching both veil and zills under the auspices of another teacher in a few weeks. She asked me about minimum class size. I told her that I'd rather teach ONE student who shows up every time, as opposed to flakes that are in and out. If Sarah Sparklebutt shows up every time, she'll learn something and not disrupt the class. Judy Jinglehips and Suzie Shimmytush can probably catch up if they miss one class due to no fault of their own - it happens. But I'd just as soon Bitsy McFlake not even show up - a one time in, three times out "student" just disrupts the class and doesn't do anyone any good whatsoever. I say this both as a teacher AND as a student.

Lastly, I'll state right up front that the best place for an intermediate/advanced dancer is in a beginner class. Otherwise we get complacent and lose the basics. Goddess knows I do!

 

[Greek Bonfire]

(unlurks long enough to say YES! to "Why are you dancing if music is at the bottom of your priority list?!? ")

I once got a new student who wanted to do a solo dance to (I kid you not) Carol of the Bells. When I explained students were expected to use Middle Eastern music, she informed me that she didn't listen to Middle Eastern music and wasn't interested in it. This was a person who had taught "belly dance" in another community for several years. I am rarely speechless, but that one caught me flat-footed.

I will say bluntly that a student like this is just plain stupid. It's like taking a rap class saying you don't like rap music, and it's equally offensive.