Tarik Sultan
New member
Dear Khanjar and Caroline: This post should address both your questions.
There is a type of skirt called a fustanila that was worn by men in the military. The Greek evsons wear a shorter version of it. In Orientalist paintings you'll see the Albanian mercenaries wearing them. They usually reached to mid calf. Most men wore robes but under that they wore some sort of tight pants, or what we call harem pants. If you look at the second video again, the guys who are not in the skirts are wearing pretty much what they would have worn back then underneath their robes.
MEn of the middle class often wore the baggy pants, shirt and vest that some people call the "ALADIN LOOK".
About dress specifically, I don't know. What we do have though is a very rich tradition of Turkish miniatures that show a wide variety of scenes from daily life. You can also see how the fashion changed over the centuries. Judging from the miniatures, it seems that the costume with the skirt began to be worn in the 1500's. Before that they wore the same thing that all men wore in daily life. They had no costume specific for dance.
It could be that they adopted it because of contact with some of the Central Asian countries. In Persia and Uzbekistan the male dancers wore a similar outfit. In Rajestan and Tibet the men dance in colorful skirts that reminds one of the tanura skirts, except that they don't manipulate theirs.
Don't know. Just one of those cultural things I suppose. I guess maybe because its a lot harder to take pants down than it is to lift up a skirt, so perhaps they saw it as a deterrent to naughty behavior?:think:
: Ankara style
: Kastamanu style. North central Turkey, near the Black Sea. Notice what the women wear.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, this wasn't everyday wear. This was a costume accessory they wore over their normal clothes. When they performed, they took off the robes and wore the skirts over their regular clothes. There are miniatures of kochecks doing acrobatics like walking on their hands where you can see they are wearing pants under the skirts. Morocco has a copy of a picture book from the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago. In it there is a picture of a male dancer from Syria named Mohamed. He is wearing a tight fitted vest over a wide sleeved shirt with an Arab head scarf and the rope. The double kind like King Faisal of Saudi Arabia use to wear. On the bottom he's wearing a skirt that reaches to the floor. This is the same type of outfit that Lane in his MAnners and Customs of Modern Egyptians describes the male dancers wearing, but more on that later. And of course, in Tunisia, till today the male dancers wear a similar outfit.
The most detailed information I found about the costumes male dancers comes from a book written by Turkish dance scholar Metin And called a pictorial History of Turkish Dance.
And this is my point. The issue of "female impersonation", has been greatly exaggerated. Its based on the assumption that movements of the hips and torso are female movements and that if a man does it, he must be imitating a woman. Which brings us back to Lane. HE was so convinced that the dance itself was lewd that he couldn't believe the natives when they said there was nothing wrong with it. HE then goes on to describe with shock that MEN are also hired to dance in the exact same way as the Ghawazee. To him this was evidence of the sexually perverted nature of the Egyptians. He states that according to the "unnatural" nature of their profession their outfit is half male and half female. The top consisting of a shirt and vest and the bottom half consisting of a petticoat. This as I've demonstrated was nothing more than a costume and if he had condescended to ask the performers who they were and what their perspective was, he would have been told so. Instead, he focuses exclusively on the Khawals, (who were effeminate homosexuals) going into detail about how they wear long braids, henna their hands and even wear the veil when not dancing. He fails to realize that because of their sexual orientation, they had no place in society or access to any sort of income other than entertainment. You find the same situation with the Hidjras in India. So it would be like saying all male dancers and entertainers in India are Hidjras, rather than realizing that some entertainers are hidjras. Like wise, in Egypt some male dancers were khawals, but not all khawals were dancers and not all male dancers were khawals.
In Turkey and elsewhere in the East, there is a tradition of female impersonation. Its theatre. In many cases its done as comedy and can still be seen in Turkey today.
However, to the colonialist mindset, it was much more expedient to give a very simplistic image of Middle Easterners as being backwards, immoral, sexually deviant savages in need of their civilizing, ( and the management of their resources). Unfortunately, this sort of deliberate ignorance continues to overshadow the history of male dancing in the Middle East and is the main reason why Egyptians and other Arabs are so reactionary when it comes to the issue of male dancing. They know how it was used to slander their image in Europe and so they steer clear of anything that could be taken out of context to make their societies look like homosexual Disney Lands in the eyes of the West.
The assumption was on the part of European travelers. Because it was the tradition in Europe to wear pants they assumed all men did. As you can see some of the skirts are pretty colorful, so to their eye it looked like a very feminine skirt. They either didn't realize or didn't want to realize that this was simply a costume and nothing more. It was worn for dramatic effect. The same reason why the dervishes wear the big skirt, (which is really a very wide robe). I asked the dervishes in Turkey why they started wearing them, because I saw from miniature paintings they didn't always and he said they did it because it looked beautiful. They want to look like a flower when they spin.Hi Tarik,
a couple of questions here. Why do think it was an assumption?
were skirts part of mens daily dress like trousers were part of womens?
There is a type of skirt called a fustanila that was worn by men in the military. The Greek evsons wear a shorter version of it. In Orientalist paintings you'll see the Albanian mercenaries wearing them. They usually reached to mid calf. Most men wore robes but under that they wore some sort of tight pants, or what we call harem pants. If you look at the second video again, the guys who are not in the skirts are wearing pretty much what they would have worn back then underneath their robes.
MEn of the middle class often wore the baggy pants, shirt and vest that some people call the "ALADIN LOOK".
What does Turkish history say about this. I, by the way, know sweet FA about Turkish dancing.
About dress specifically, I don't know. What we do have though is a very rich tradition of Turkish miniatures that show a wide variety of scenes from daily life. You can also see how the fashion changed over the centuries. Judging from the miniatures, it seems that the costume with the skirt began to be worn in the 1500's. Before that they wore the same thing that all men wore in daily life. They had no costume specific for dance.
It could be that they adopted it because of contact with some of the Central Asian countries. In Persia and Uzbekistan the male dancers wore a similar outfit. In Rajestan and Tibet the men dance in colorful skirts that reminds one of the tanura skirts, except that they don't manipulate theirs.
OK, I do know that trousers were worn by traditionally all over Asia for practical modest reasons. Why is that do you think?
Don't know. Just one of those cultural things I suppose. I guess maybe because its a lot harder to take pants down than it is to lift up a skirt, so perhaps they saw it as a deterrent to naughty behavior?:think:
: Ankara style
: Kastamanu style. North central Turkey, near the Black Sea. Notice what the women wear.
[/QUOTE]
Where is the information source about this issue of men wearing skirts til the turn of the century? are there photos, written accounts or anything else documented about this?
Like I said, this wasn't everyday wear. This was a costume accessory they wore over their normal clothes. When they performed, they took off the robes and wore the skirts over their regular clothes. There are miniatures of kochecks doing acrobatics like walking on their hands where you can see they are wearing pants under the skirts. Morocco has a copy of a picture book from the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago. In it there is a picture of a male dancer from Syria named Mohamed. He is wearing a tight fitted vest over a wide sleeved shirt with an Arab head scarf and the rope. The double kind like King Faisal of Saudi Arabia use to wear. On the bottom he's wearing a skirt that reaches to the floor. This is the same type of outfit that Lane in his MAnners and Customs of Modern Egyptians describes the male dancers wearing, but more on that later. And of course, in Tunisia, till today the male dancers wear a similar outfit.
The most detailed information I found about the costumes male dancers comes from a book written by Turkish dance scholar Metin And called a pictorial History of Turkish Dance.
To be honest, I have never come across this other than the mention and documentation of travel writers in reference to female impersonators.
And this is my point. The issue of "female impersonation", has been greatly exaggerated. Its based on the assumption that movements of the hips and torso are female movements and that if a man does it, he must be imitating a woman. Which brings us back to Lane. HE was so convinced that the dance itself was lewd that he couldn't believe the natives when they said there was nothing wrong with it. HE then goes on to describe with shock that MEN are also hired to dance in the exact same way as the Ghawazee. To him this was evidence of the sexually perverted nature of the Egyptians. He states that according to the "unnatural" nature of their profession their outfit is half male and half female. The top consisting of a shirt and vest and the bottom half consisting of a petticoat. This as I've demonstrated was nothing more than a costume and if he had condescended to ask the performers who they were and what their perspective was, he would have been told so. Instead, he focuses exclusively on the Khawals, (who were effeminate homosexuals) going into detail about how they wear long braids, henna their hands and even wear the veil when not dancing. He fails to realize that because of their sexual orientation, they had no place in society or access to any sort of income other than entertainment. You find the same situation with the Hidjras in India. So it would be like saying all male dancers and entertainers in India are Hidjras, rather than realizing that some entertainers are hidjras. Like wise, in Egypt some male dancers were khawals, but not all khawals were dancers and not all male dancers were khawals.
In Turkey and elsewhere in the East, there is a tradition of female impersonation. Its theatre. In many cases its done as comedy and can still be seen in Turkey today.
However, to the colonialist mindset, it was much more expedient to give a very simplistic image of Middle Easterners as being backwards, immoral, sexually deviant savages in need of their civilizing, ( and the management of their resources). Unfortunately, this sort of deliberate ignorance continues to overshadow the history of male dancing in the Middle East and is the main reason why Egyptians and other Arabs are so reactionary when it comes to the issue of male dancing. They know how it was used to slander their image in Europe and so they steer clear of anything that could be taken out of context to make their societies look like homosexual Disney Lands in the eyes of the West.