Am i good enough to start performing at restaurants?

[Zumarrad]

It is a VERY good idea to read around on a forum before you post, just to find out if the place is really what you think it is.

 

[CrimsonLuna]

It is a VERY good idea to read around on a forum before you post, just to find out if the place is really what you think it is.

I think this thread has cleared up EXACTLY what kind of place it is

 

[Darshiva]

I think this thread has cleared up EXACTLY what kind of place it is

It certainly has. We are very serious about being respectful to the origins of bellydance and in being honest above all else when asked a question in earnest. It's a remarkable forum - you don't often get that in a forum and we have worked very hard to maintain that attitude.

 

[Roshanna]

Yeah I do agree she has talent and honestly i do understand where you all come from saying I also think when you have put hours into practising something you love and by the way she, last year wouldn't dare of put a video up on the internet she wouldn't even dance in front of her other half but her confidence is glowing now and being someone who ha watched her progress in confidence it upset me to see her first attempt at putting it up to judgement was crushed by some comments maybe they weren't meant in a nasty way but then the comments about her lack of personality and calling her rude.... I just thought that these posts were turning more into a battle of insults

Fine.
But if she is very shy and lacking in confidence as you say, I am a little confused as to why she came here asking about whether she was good enough to be dancing in restaurants, i.e. dancing professionally, for money, in front of a large audience of unforgiving strangers. We responded to the question that was asked, truthfully.

If she'd come on to the student section of the forum asking for feedback on her video *as a student*, and said she was new and nervous, the responses given would have been very different. I can say this with certainty, because plenty of people *do* do this, and get kind and sensitive feedback from the forum members.

It seems like perhaps her friends had encouraged her to consider dancing in restaurants as a form of compliment, because they thought she should try performing, and it is the 'obvious' place for bellydancers to perform because it's where the general public see us. So in a way this may be a horrible misunderstanding, because the OP had been led to believe that restaurants were an appropriate venue for beginner dancers - whereas the experienced dancers on this forum (lots of us actually do dance in restaurants regularly) know that it isn't, and see it as demanding work for a skilled professional.

Again, if the question asked had been a more general 'am I ready to perform', rather than asking about performing *as a professional dancer*, then answers would also have been different and more sympathetic. As it was, well... We have a problem in the bellydance community with people not taking this dance seriously, and thinking they can call themselves 'professionals' after a few weeks of beginner's classes, so a lot of people's first instinct when someone who is obviously a beginner starts asking about professional gigs, is to point out all the differences between what someone knows about at a beginner level, and what an actual professional dancer does.

I'm not sure if it's still worth saying at this point, but I do still think the best thing for the OP if she's serious about wanting to perform one day, is to find a weekly class with a good teacher and go to it regularly. That way you get a far more rounded learning experience than with DVDs (which would soon deal with the weaker areas in the OPs dancing that were pointed out, like arm movements, which I'd guess are things her DVDs just haven't covered in much detail), you get individual advice from your teacher, and you have performance opportunities appropriate to your level - e.g. doing group choreographies with your class at local dance events, and then later having the chance to dance solo for other dancers.

 

[Aniseteph]

If she'd come on to the student section of the forum asking for feedback on her video *as a student*, and said she was new and nervous, the responses given would have been very different. I can say this with certainty, because plenty of people *do* do this, and get kind and sensitive feedback from the forum members.

Absolutely. :clap:

But even as it was, the first responses were helpful and constructive, the negative balanced with positive feedback for the most part. I thought they were spot on for an aspirational and promising student who wasn't there yet. The OP came across as a rude on her first reply: none of your opinions count unless you have better clips, implied the responders were unintelligent, and said she wouldn't be judged by anyone else's standards. . And she showed how little she knew about belly dance which for a wannabe pro is going to push a lot of buttons. Then she is calling the whole forum bitchy and judgemental and unsupportive and telling us what belly dance is. And after that that we are mean girls. And more demonstrations of cluelessness about belly dance.

There were plenty of chances to turn it round and say "Oh. Seems belly dance is not what I thought. Sorry, we are talking at cross purposes." And we could draw a line and start again. But instead we are all painted as ignorant for not appreciating the mystic thing. :wall:. And now the victim routine.

Shira made an excellent point and an earlier post was IMO the voice of positively saintly patient reason. But I would not blame a teacher IRL in the slightest if, after having explained over and over with examples and everything, student was still not listening, and being rude into the bargain. And that's with a teacher. Your peers will ignore you or worse, and only a good friend will say "actually you are being a bit of an a*** on this one".

Some people here are STILL being nice. :clap:

 

[Sophia Maria]

I have to ask...

Folks, if a new student showed up in your classroom and mentioned that she believed belly dancing was a temple dance from ancient Egypt, and that she hoped to use the technique in her personal spiritual practice, would you use the words "ignorance", "pseudomysticism," and "troll" to her face, and ridicule her faith until you drove her out of your classroom? If a Christian student said that she thought the shepherd women did belly dancing to celebrate on the night that Jesus was born, would you ridicule that?

Or would you courteously explain the history of the dance as you know it, refer her resources on belly dance history that you feel are credible, and respect her spirituality?

Is this kind of piling-on really the first impression we want to make on a new member who (until now) hasn't had contact with "the belly dance community"? Does anybody really think the aggressive tone reflected in many of the posts on this thread would be perceived as persuasive or educational? If YOU were the one being disagreed with, would you be inclined to try learning from people who called you a troll, and referred to your inspirations as ignorant?

Like many folks here on the forums, I try to educate newer dancers on the facts supporting the history of our dance. But I do wish this thread had leaned more toward kindness and less toward ridicule.

Mm, I think this a very important fact. I think everyone should take it into consideration, however in some ways I would respectfully disagree. There were some posts which were a little harsher than they should have been, maybe. But the majority were people giving honest advice, and then explaining themselves so Esmerelda could understand.

The problem is, she asked a very specific question to forum members here, and likewise got a very specific response. Some of these forum members are teachers, and so gave her many good resources to pursue if she so chose. However, they cannot be expected, I think to give much more than they have already given out, for free. I think, considering the circumstances, the forum members here gave Esmerelda a lot of material to work with.

Oh my god you just can't stop can you !

You're right. We just can't stop. I can see why, at this point, you and Esmerelda would want us to just drop everything and go our separate ways. The problem is bellydancers like arguing. Bellydancers talk a lot and we like debate. (Heat up the sauna :dance Our debates go on and on and on, because we have a lot of passion for what we are talking about. Even though sometimes in this thread I may have disappointed or aggravated, I don't regret participating in it because debate is always interesting, and one learns more than if one "just stopped".

 

[CrimsonLuna]

This has sunk to the level of wretched.

I'm not going to engage anymore in this...tripe...It would feel too much like poking you with a stick.

(Yame, Darshiva, I don't feel she's a troll, just breathtakingly arrogant and ill-informed, which is a particularly unfortunate combination. That being said, she's shifted the goalposts so much they're no longer on the field, so...)

And you have some f***ing cheek! Get back to your cauldron

 

[CrimsonLuna]

Mm, I think this a very important fact. I think everyone should take it into consideration, however in some ways I would respectfully disagree. There were some posts which were a little harsher than they should have been, maybe. But the majority were people giving honest advice, and then explaining themselves so Esmerelda could understand.

The problem is, she asked a very specific question to forum members here, and likewise got a very specific response. Some of these forum members are teachers, and so gave her many good resources to pursue if she so chose. However, they cannot be expected, I think to give much more than they have already given out, for free. I think, considering the circumstances, the forum members here gave Esmerelda a lot of material to work with.



You're right. We just can't stop. I can see why, at this point, you and Esmerelda would want us to just drop everything and go our separate ways. The problem is bellydancers like arguing. Bellydancers talk a lot and we like debate. (Heat up the sauna :dance Our debates go on and on and on, because we have a lot of passion for what we are talking about. Even though sometimes in this thread I may have disappointed or aggravated, I don't regret participating in it because debate is always interesting, and one learns more than if one "just stopped".

Insults are not a part of debating !! Then go argue else where! Stop picking on her just because she is more beautiful inside and out than most of you hater here

 

[kina]

Insults are not a part of debating !! Then go argue else where! Stop picking on her just because she is more beautiful inside and out than most of you hater here

I cannot BEGIN to tell you how entertaining your posts have been! :clap:

tick: ask a question that has just enough material that people on the board are passionate about to get a response
tick: respond to the initial posts just enough to get people engaged, but still asking questions
tick: start to argue about people's abilities to answer the questions and imply they aren't capable
tick: get wounded and offended, but continue to bait people
tick: flounce
tick: sock puppet to keep the thread going
tick: everyone is just jealous haters

It's like trolling 101, I wonder what's the next one on the list is going to be?

for the record, I enjoy reading the responses from the very intelligent and well educated people who do engage in the hopes that they will be able to help someone

 

[Roshanna]

Insults are not a part of debating !! Then go argue else where! Stop picking on her just because she is more beautiful inside and out than most of you hater here

It is unfortunate that you both have decided to completely ignore the majority of the kind, helpful and considered posts on this thread, in favour of getting all dramatic about the few forum members who ran out of patience some time ago.

Still, if taking the time to give a stranger on the internet the same good advice that I'd happily give to my own close friends or paying students makes me a 'hater', can't say I'm too bothered.... :lol:

 

[EsmereldaDancer1987]

Mm, I think this a very important fact. I think everyone should take it into consideration, however in some ways I would respectfully disagree. There were some posts which were a little harsher than they should have been, maybe. But the majority were people giving honest advice, and then explaining themselves so Esmerelda could understand.

The problem is, she asked a very specific question to forum members here, and likewise got a very specific response. Some of these forum members are teachers, and so gave her many good resources to pursue if she so chose. However, they cannot be expected, I think to give much more than they have already given out, for free. I think, considering the circumstances, the forum members here gave Esmerelda a lot of material to work with.



You're right. We just can't stop. I can see why, at this point, you and Esmerelda would want us to just drop everything and go our separate ways. The problem is bellydancers like arguing. Bellydancers talk a lot and we like debate. (Heat up the sauna :dance Our debates go on and on and on, because we have a lot of passion for what we are talking about. Even though sometimes in this thread I may have disappointed or aggravated, I don't regret participating in it because debate is always interesting, and one learns more than if one "just stopped".

So basically i have learned that this belly dance forum is about arguing really, not helping people its about arguing and being the know it alls and that if they dont conform to your way of thinking or being about belly dance then that person is wrong. But you will love that because then it gives you a chance to throw all your negativity and judgements on that person if they disagree with you, because after all it seems on this forum you aren't entitled to have your own opinion.

You should be enlightening students helping them, giving them advice in a non bitchy tone. Its funny how just a simple question has turned into this. I wanted to share my views and wanted advice not to be bitched at. This is what you call bullying because someone has a different view on belly dance than you.

I have been open to your views, i have just not been open to the negativity so i stood my ground, But then your not even allowed to stand your ground because then your the bad one and you get called being rude. Please stop twisting my words and making me out to be the bad one.

To prove i have been taking on your advice i have ordered myself a DVD on Egyptian Baldi to learn about it as i am open to learning new things. I have looked up Taste of Cairo to start classes. I cannot even see where i have been rude all ive seen is me sharing my views and standing my ground when you target me.

I cannot believe you are all getting kicks out this, its all just a big power trip for you.

 

[Munniko]

You should be enlightening students helping them, giving them advice in a non bitchy tone. Its funny how just a simple question has turned into this. I wanted to share my views and wanted advice not to be bitched at. This is what you call bullying because someone has a different view on belly dance than you.

Nope still not bullying people are still trying to be nice and you are just putting the wrong emotion behind what you are reading. You are just reading text so it can have whatever inference behind it you want, maybe you should try rereading some of the comments in a different mind set? Until we are only answering your replies with expletives or insulting your looks or even insulting things in your life we couldn't possibly know about you aren't really being bullied

To prove i have been taking on your advice i have ordered myself a DVD on Egyptian Baldi to learn about it as i am open to learning new things. I have looked up Taste of Cairo to start classes. I cannot even see where i have been rude all ive seen is me sharing my views and standing my ground when you target me.

If we are so mean please do not try and prove anything to us. It would be a waste of your time and I say that with all honesty. Please don't waste your money on something you will not enjoy just because you think it will make us nicer or to prove you are the bigger person. If we are so mean it is a waste of your time and resources.

I cannot believe you are all getting kicks out this, its all just a big power trip for you.

You are right I am getting a kick out of this because I enjoy seeing people respond to things they are passionate about because it gives me a feeling of awe and respect that people enjoyed what most people view as a hobby and research the crud out of it and make it a passion. Seeing such passion gives me passion to go out and research my passions and study more.

 

[Aniseteph]

Insults are not a part of debating !!

That's rich considering what you had just said in your previous post.

....tick: respond to the initial posts just enough to get people engaged, but still asking questions....

There were questions? I saw lots of assertions and belly-dance-is-what-I-say-it-is. Open questions wouldn't have landed this thread in the sauna. <scrolls up to check - yup, thought so. Sauna-iest sauna ever>

 

[kina]

That's rich considering what you had just said in your previous post.



There were questions? I saw lots of assertions and belly-dance-is-what-I-say-it-is. Open questions wouldn't have landed this thread in the sauna. <scrolls up to check - yup, thought so. Sauna-iest sauna ever>

fair enough. how about "outrageous assertions and statements revealing such wide spread disdain and ignorance that it MUST be designed to push buttons"? i.e. trigger people who are passionate about there dance and who who are at heart teachers who just want to share their love for it?

 

[MizzNaaa]

It is unfortunate that you both have decided to completely ignore the majority of the kind, helpful and considered posts on this thread, in favour of getting all dramatic about the few forum members who ran out of patience some time ago.

Still, if taking the time to give a stranger on the internet the same good advice that I'd happily give to my own close friends or paying students makes me a 'hater', can't say I'm too bothered.... :lol:

Both? Am I the only one who noticed that Darshiva called her Es? She's sock puppet-ing and considering she didn't stop for a moment to think that oh...I dunno, maybe a forum moderator can look up her IP and realize both accounts are from the same person, it really does say a lot about the kind of discussions she could be part of.

At any rate, in reply to Shira (All my gushing aside, as I really am a big fan, Shira) yes, some people here were unnecessarily harsh with their comments, but none of the original round of criticisms were *Not* useful. But as a lot of people here mentioned, she shifted around subjects and derailed and dragged this all over the place so she could boil this whole thing down to "You're wrong, I'm right, go die"

Argumentative and quite insulting, I facepalmed through my skull at most of the posts coming from that person, and to top it all, she's sock puppeting.

So yeah, I really don't see how this conversation could have gone any better/worse.

Also, thanks Zumarrad, your comment is quite appreciated about me, and yes, I found her comments and most of the things she said about my culture, our dance and our ancient culture to be quite insulting...so yeah.

And to end this on a self indulging note

The builders of the pyramids were masters of these arts. Engineers today still couldn't recreate the building of the pyramids to the same accuracy and skill as our ancients did.

Lady, I don't know what/how you think, but those aren't YOUR ancients, those are Egyptian ancients, make the distinction and don't group yourself with us.

(Yes, i fully realize I just indulged in a no 'it's mine' argument)

 

[Aniseteph]

fair enough. how about "outrageous assertions and statements revealing such wide spread disdain and ignorance that it MUST be designed to push buttons"?

Yes.

Although I am such a gormless Pollyanna that I see ignorance before calculated trolling every time. It would take so much research for the civilian (for want of a better term) to do a convincingly subtle job of it. Or for the experienced dancer or long term hobbyist obsessive to have nothing better to do. Those sequins won't sew themselves on.

Lady, I don't know what/how you think, but those aren't YOUR ancients, those are Egyptian ancients, make the distinction and don't group yourself with us.

:lol: Comment of the week MizzNaaa - you win the internet. Consider yourself high-fived, or whatever it is that kids do to salute a win these days.

 

[Zumarrad]

MizzNaa wins the internet!

And to Esmeralda: could you tell your sock to stop swearing?

 

[Kashmir]

You should be enlightening students helping them, giving them advice in a non bitchy tone. Its funny how just a simple question has turned into this. I wanted to share my views and wanted advice not to be bitched at. This is what you call bullying because someone has a different view on belly dance than you.

As someone else said, if you think this is bitchy or bullying you must have lived a very sheltered life.

We have been trying to "enlighten" you - but when you are offered (for free) decades (actually centuries) of advice from experienced teachers and dancers you knew better.

However, I'm glad you are willing to pay for a DVD to expand your knowledge. Hopefully it is Ranya Renee's - which is very good, accessible and on the button. (See we are still stupid enough to offer free advice - do you have any idea how much this would have cost you if you had paid all of us for private lessons?)

 

[Darshiva]

And you have some fucking cheek! Get back to your cauldron

Insults are not a part of debating !! Then go argue else where! Stop picking on her just because she is more beautiful inside and out than most of you hater here

And it would pay you to mind this yourself. Please mind your language and the name calling. Heated debate is encouraged. Disagreeing with others loudly is encouraged. Throwing derogatory slurs around is another thing entirely. And you of all people! You call yourself a spiritualist and yet deride wiccans with your slur!

 

[Darshiva]

Both? Am I the only one who noticed that Darshiva called her Es? She's sock puppet-ing and considering she didn't stop for a moment to think that oh...I dunno, maybe a forum moderator can look up her IP and realize both accounts are from the same person, it really does say a lot about the kind of discussions she could be part of.)

I actually misread the name at the beginning of the post and thought it was her. (it sometimes happens when I'm replying to threads because my cursor skips all over the show and it gets really hard to read who & what - take a moment to giggle next time you see me do it!) When I realised my mistake I figured I'd let the comment stand because she really should read that anyway and since they are friends one would hope the message would be passed on.

If they are indeed one person, they have gone to enough trouble to hide it that it's not worth worrying about. To clarify, their story checks out - they don't have the same IP nor even the same ISP. If someone wants to go to the trouble of going to a cyber cafe or a friend's house a few towns over just to troll this forum, then more power to them!