Appropriate gestures and postures in bellydance

[janaki]

Hi all,

Many culture have gestures that mean something. How about we all share ONE something we know about the gestures and postures...the don and don't when you belly dance. It helps if you can explain the gesture.... a picture reference would be nice too. One of our memebers Sultan has the same querie as well. Hope we can can learn something from this thread. Experts pls help to correct!!!

My contribution - I was told in arab world doing ribcage/chest lifts drops are considered very sexual....doing them in moderation with good taste was recommended to me.


Cheers
Janaki

 

[samsied]

I am curious about the chest movements as well. I have seen Arabic dancers use chest drops (including an ex teacher of mine and I am sure I have seen it on videos of Egyptian dancers). I had heard the same, but have also heard from others that it is chest/upper body undulations that have the more sexual connotations. Does anyone know? Or is it one of those urban myths of bellydance?

 

[Outi]

I never heard of this at all.
But: In America some of the teachers insist shoulder and ribcage movements and want to separate them from breasts. In Egypt it's about breasts, being a woman. That's sexy and even flirty, which is not bad at all.

 

[Aniseteph]

That's interesting Donya. I've been taught shoulder shimmies should be shoulders not breasts, and read similar on this forum. But I recently went to an Aida Nour workshop and there was a shoulder shimmy in the routine, and it was very clearly pointed out what should be shimmying, and it was NOT the shoulders! :dance: I've been wondering if it was an Egyptian thing....

 

[taheya]

Yes thanks for that donya...really interesting, seems like we try to beat out the sexuality of the dance with all our might!! I have always been taught it was the shoulders too...:think:

 

[samsied]

I've considered the same. But I will say those upper body movements that I was told are considered "too sexual" by Egyptians (and possibly others) are used extensively in American Oriental/American Caberet as well as American Tribal and Tribal Fusion styles.

Some of the teachers who said this, suggested one should not to do upper body undulations when dancing a more pure Arabian or Egyptian style, but they do it when dancing American or Turkish inspired styles. I think they are talking about rib circles and the undulations that are like an upper body camel. Someone else told me the same about chest lift/drops, but I believe they were mistaken since there are hundreds of obvious examples of Egyptian dancers doing chest drops.

I am not sure whether I believe this information to be "true", I have found there are a lot of "rules" passed on as gospel from very respectful and experienced dancers. My guess is often that they are passing on what their trusted teachers told them in the past. I would like to learn whether there is any truth to this statement.

I never heard of this at all.
But: In America some of the teachers insist shoulder and ribcage movements and want to separate them from breasts. In Egypt it's about breasts, being a woman. That's sexy and even flirty, which is not bad at all.

 

[samsied]

My first post didn't even consider shoulder shimmies. As someone who has had about 8 regular teachers over the years in this style of dance, I had developed a lot of confusion about the "shoulder shimmy/chest shimmy".

I have noticed a lot of Egyptian and Arabian dancers seem to use a much more relaxed "shoulder shimmy technique" where they don't mind if there is natural sympathetic movement in the breasts. A couple people (workshop teachers but not any of my mentioned regular teachers) have also taught a more vigorus chest shimmy that looks like a *very* loose shoulder shimmy (with lots of chest movement). I have to admit I have not observed this too much in performance, and personally find this uncomfortable unless I am wearing a very supportive bra.

Probably half of my ex-teachers have taught a more stiff, "shoulders only" approach. And some claim that is the authentic and appropriate technique (as opposed to their personal style preference). I am guessing that is what they were taught. I wonder how much of that comes from a desire to "beat the sexuality out of the dance" that a previous poster mentioned. Though I think in many cases, the dancer believes she/he is being respectful to root cultures and what she/he is doing is the "correct" way.

I imagine there ae many examples like this about "appropriate gestures and postures in bellydance". Any information to clarify this is appreciated. The challenge is how does a dancer sort the accurate cultural information from the "urban myths"?

Yes thanks for that donya...really interesting, seems like we try to beat out the sexuality of the dance with all our might!! I have always been taught it was the shoulders too...:think:

 

[Suheir]

When I took workshops with Mona Said a few months ago she said that she used shoulders as an accent and her upper body shimmies were always bust shimmies.

 

[janaki]

I have seen egyptian dancers do this.

1. Put their hand under the left breast (like cupping ) just momentarily. I asked one my teachers and she siad it means to express love. I have always thought it got to be true becuase the heart is on the left side.

2. I have seen dancers poiting to their eyes from time to time. Does this have a special meaning or are they just simply interpreting the lyrics?

3. I have also seen egyptian dancers placing the hand/plam on the stomach. I was told many thing like love/affection/feeling/mood etc., etc.,

Pls keep adding on ladies and gents!!!

Cheers
Janaki

 

[Reen.Blom]

Wow this is a very interesting thread!! I ahve always wanted to know if there are "meaningful" gestures in Belly dance

 

[Outi]

1. Put their hand under the left breast (like cupping ) just momentarily. I asked one my teachers and she said it means to express love. I have always thought it got to be true because the heart is on the left side.

They are pointing the heart, in sorrow or love depending of the song. If there is "alb" in the lyrics, it's quite safe.

The big upper body undulation just is not Egyptian style. It's American. So Egyptians don't do it.

As for the upper body: Many dancers do the movements too high. The movement comes from the spine, exactly from the point where women has the hooks of the bra (or even inch lower). This way it will look more effortless, natural. And it will keep better posture.

 

[Ariella]

3. I have also seen egyptian dancers placing the hand/plam on the stomach. I was told many thing like love/affection/feeling/mood etc., etc.,

Funny you mention this... if I'm improvising on my own to really good egyptian music(no pop) and I'm in a particularly emotional part of the music, I often find myself placing the palm of my hand on my stomach. I was never taught this throughout all of my dance instruction, so I try to avoid doing it in performance because I don't know if it's appropriate.

Actually now that I think about it, ever since I really got into belly dance I'll occasionally place my hand on my abdomen whenever experiencing strong emotion. I never made the connection to dance until now.

I'm really curious to know if anyone else has seen dancers doing this. I wonder if it's taught, or it's something we just do as a reaction to emotion.

 

[janaki]

Hi guys,

In this clip Dina does a lot of gestures in the first part of the dance to Tahtill Shibhak. I guess she is interpresting the lyrics. I checked the meaning of the lyrics, some I kinda understand but some I am not sure. I am intreagued by a gesture she does at 1.19ish, she places her hand on the side of the shoulde and she flicks her fingers.

Check it out!


Cheers
Janaki

 

[sultan]

"Is Sephardic dance Too Sexy"

Judith Brin Ingber : Dancer, Writer

My ancestral Sephardic sisters danced to bring joy to the hearts of grieving men and boys according to the Bible as I showed on a previous thread. But the Bible records that the dance was done by women only with men as the audience.

In modern Sephardic dance, it is done by both genders with lots of physical and sexy contact among the dancers. Such contact is a definite no-no among Islamic fans of "belly dance" and would be considered inappropriate.

If I may confess, upon reviewing the dance moves it makes me wish I could find the Fountain of Youth and could turn into a handsome Prince Charming. This along with ballroom dancing is what I would be doing every week!

ray: ray: ray: ray: ray: ray: ray: ray: ray: ray:

 

[sultan]

I enjoy the video of Dina's performance but cringed at the repeated gesture she makes at her own throat.

And just another cultural observation: in virtually each video of Middle Eastern dance, the audience is separated by gender. Among us Hispanics that is totally abhorrent!! Men and women are meant for each other and we are NEVER separated by gender. The difference being that cabaret entertainment is almost exclusively for married couples, not for singles as this type of entertainment is viewed as an affirmation of the marital bond.

 

[Madeline]

I’ve also heard that you shouldn’t do multiple ribcage drops, but I can’t remember where I read that. Maybe it was on that bellydance move dictionary website?

Here are some really interesting pages about Lebanese gestures: Talking with the hands
Inadvertently flipping people off - Suha Azar of Lebanon - tribe.net

 

[sedoniaraqs]

Egyptian Posture

In general, most American and other western dancers do not have good upper body posture and do not have enough upper body energy and movement. And when they do move their upper bodies, it is in a way that is very different from the Egyptians. (and btw I talk incessantly about Egyptians only because its what I know; I'm less familiar with Lebanese or Turkish dancing)

Watch Fifi, Mona, Dina, or Suhair very carefully and you will see that almost all of their movements flow into or out of the upper body. Fifi is my favorite for showing students because her upper body moves are exaggerated and are very easy to see. Their heads move, their chests move. No, not so much in chest pops or locks, but the movements they do involve the whole body. They stand up straight with their center of movement and gravity forward and more in the solar plexus. The emotional energy flows from this place, and they lead movement from here.

In contrast, many western dancers have a dead zone from their navel to their head, except of course when hammering out lifts and drops. Many western dancers want to hang back in terms of their center of balance, reaching forward only with isolated body parts. As just one example, I have a real problem teaching students to do weighted hip movements. Think of Dina locking her hip forward and up. Her weight is forward, her upper body is right over where the movement is, and she is moving her weighted hip. Forget for a moment the mechanics of the weighted hip articulation, student's often do not even want to assume the posture required because it is a body language that causes them emotional discomfort even if they are not conciously aware. I tell my students that we (Americans) are a conflicted product of the sexual revolution and our puritanical ancestors -- we expose our bodies with clothing, then hide our bodies with our posture and body language.

As for teachers who say "its a shoulder shimmy not a breast shimmy"...aarrghh!!!!! Watch any female dancers from any country where this dance is indigenous. They are shaking their breasts!! When a teacher says something like this that is in such total and utter contrast with what you can see with your own two eyes, be very very suspect, and wonder what else you are learning that might not be true!!!

And heaven forbid, if you are one of the teachers saying this, maybe you need to stop and rethink what and why you are teaching.

Sedonia

 

[Outi]

Sedonia:
I think the difference for moving one's whole body comes from the muscles a dancer uses.
Western way: In beginning students start the movement with outer muscles (don't know the names). With these muscles is very easy to follow directions (left, right, front, back) and to completely isolate the body. This very good way to start, actually the only way. In Am. Cab. in my limited understanding this is the way to dance.

Egyptian way: After years and years of practising, students may find out their inner muscles (the ones really close their spine). This the Egyptian way. Now isolation is not so strickt and the directions are not so clear. I have been dancing like this a long time, but I noticed this in intellectual level only last year, after almost 15 years of dancing.

In latter the upper body is only following the pelvis movements, not activly doing something itshelf. In Am. Cab. the upperbody moventes are done activly together with pelvis movents and bigger muscles are involved.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Donya and Sedonia:

The only American instructor I've ever had who stressed the Egyptian and American difference in the use of muscles is Shareen el Safy, which is why I sing her praises whenever I can.

I think it's like Donya describes -- to me, it's a more interior, internal feeling to use Shareen's (Egyptian) technique. BECAUSE it's so interior, it's more personal and it makes the dance feel COMPLETELY different to me.

 

[Safran]

Actually now that I think about it, ever since I really got into belly dance I'll occasionally place my hand on my abdomen whenever experiencing strong emotion. I never made the connection to dance until now.

I'm really curious to know if anyone else has seen dancers doing this. I wonder if it's taught, or it's something we just do as a reaction to emotion.

I've also heard about that. I was told that stomach is where Arabians feel the pain for love. That's where their broken heart is located But I cant really pinpoint the source (like with most of the tidbits and facts I know... argh!)

But about the shoulder/chest/brest shimmies - Khaled Mahmoud was in Tallinn this weekend and he emphasised that if you want to make this shimmy intensive, make it small, specific and shoulder-based to make sure it looks decent. and I sooo agree...