Bad News: EGYPT
- Thread starter Reen.Blom
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Nabila Nazem
New member
Many performers around the world, especially female, are regarded in this manner to some degree. Show business in general was considered "low class" here in "the West" until recently, no matter what kind of art it was.
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Reen,
........ You seem rather shocked by this. Is it new information to you? This kind of thing has been going on since before belly dance even existed. I suggest you read Gustav Flaubert's book of his travels in Egypt. Also, as someone pointed out, it has also been traditionally true in the U.S. that many entertainers earned a better living if they were also prostitutes. This tradition actually carries on today in he form of the "casting couch" !
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Reen,
........ You seem rather shocked by this. Is it new information to you? This kind of thing has been going on since before belly dance even existed. I suggest you read Gustav Flaubert's book of his travels in Egypt. Also, as someone pointed out, it has also been traditionally true in the U.S. that many entertainers earned a better living if they were also prostitutes. This tradition actually carries on today in he form of the "casting couch" !
Regards,
A'isha
Reen.Blom
New member
Dear Aisha,
I do confess I had no clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But it is different in the Us and other Western countries with 'entertainers'... because those women have much less rights! So when their husbands and their families turn aways from them, they basicly have no other choice!!! Gosh they even threaten to kill them to save the honour of the family....
Most information we get is just sugar coated fairy tale... I always thought belly dance has a "bad name" cos well as we are told a women dancing publicly is nono in this culture... what a load of LIES! It is not THe REASON. Gosh I AM shocked. The real reason is that "real" belly dancers there have 2 businesess, and rather use belly dance to advertise other 'services'....
I suppose it is different in tourist big places, etc, but those women cast away by society and family with low or no income are basicly forced to do that by circumstances....
This is so heartbreaking.
I mean look at their clothes, they look cheap and trashy.... and here we are debateing every day and talking about respect to the artform....
It it does look like the costuming got worse recently.... well suppose it just reflects the other side of the 'business'???
I really was naive to think that BD is not popular there cos of religious or other reasons. NOW i see WHY.
Gosh that guy who's face was not shown... you know what? I totally agree with him. I would not want my daughter or sister to be a bellydancer THERE.
He also mentioned that he enjoyed the old dancers like Samia... well I guess Samia looks "conservative" compared to modern celebs....
And the worst thing is that high end dancers like Dina do not help... For goodness sake, why they have to dress so trashy???? I know she wants to shock and chellenge... Sex sells?
Yeah.... rrrrright.... Talk about "art of bellydance".... I am sick....
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Reen,
I am sorry that you have been so disillusioned. It seems unfair somehow that you want so much more for the dance and that it can not really change anything.
I am not really bothered by the reputation of he dance and I also know that those dancers who reach a state of financial comfort also reach a state of political and social freedom that is rarely enjoyed by women ANYWHERE in the world. Also, I have to say that most of the belly dancers form Egypt that I have met are rather tough women who can put just about anyone in their place if they have to.
And, the women who work in sleazy strip joints here in the west have just about as much protection from family and society as do the women in Middle Eastern countries who are poor and make their living as dancers/prostitutes. They also often have no choice, no skills, no organizations that care to help them, no support system. Let us look in our own back yards before pointing fingers at others.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Reen,
I am sorry that you have been so disillusioned. It seems unfair somehow that you want so much more for the dance and that it can not really change anything.
I am not really bothered by the reputation of he dance and I also know that those dancers who reach a state of financial comfort also reach a state of political and social freedom that is rarely enjoyed by women ANYWHERE in the world. Also, I have to say that most of the belly dancers form Egypt that I have met are rather tough women who can put just about anyone in their place if they have to.
And, the women who work in sleazy strip joints here in the west have just about as much protection from family and society as do the women in Middle Eastern countries who are poor and make their living as dancers/prostitutes. They also often have no choice, no skills, no organizations that care to help them, no support system. Let us look in our own back yards before pointing fingers at others.
Regards,
A'isha
Reen.Blom
New member
Gosh its not about the DANCE!
Dance is PERFECT!!!!
It is how it is represented in Egypt, and how many people get disillusioned when it is too late? I mean you never see that on internet, I suppese everyone who worked in Egypt just keeps it quiet?
I understand it sucks to say that's it is the reality there.... But also many girls dream to work in Egypt not knowing what it is like.... and Others are just too scared to lose their business trading , etc with Egypt so they also keep quiet?
And I suppose in the West one can get single mom child allowance, or medical help... and well bare nessesities are denied there...
But THAT is not the point.... but that lack of information??????
And I am truely saddened that the "creators" of the dance really make disgrace out of it....
Dance is PERFECT!!!!
It is how it is represented in Egypt, and how many people get disillusioned when it is too late? I mean you never see that on internet, I suppese everyone who worked in Egypt just keeps it quiet?
I understand it sucks to say that's it is the reality there.... But also many girls dream to work in Egypt not knowing what it is like.... and Others are just too scared to lose their business trading , etc with Egypt so they also keep quiet?
And I suppose in the West one can get single mom child allowance, or medical help... and well bare nessesities are denied there...
But THAT is not the point.... but that lack of information??????
And I am truely saddened that the "creators" of the dance really make disgrace out of it....
Reen.Blom
New member
If that was about society..... then ok.... but it is not... it IS sleasy and cheap in most places in Egypt. That's the sad truth.....,
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear Reen,
One man's disgrace is another's entertainment. In many cases, it is seen with the same casual observance that one would give a girl who strips down to g-string and pasties at a birthday party here in the west. Many dancers do not hook as well, though some do...... just like here in the west. the creators of the dance have the right to define the dance in any way they want, and I am sure that Badai Masabni and others were well aware of what they were doing in context of the greater culture, and decided to thumb their noses at it, just as many dancers decide to do now. Those who have a choice, that is. The others are very much just like here with regards to women who have no choice but to take sleazy jobs because they have no money, no support system, no education and no chance at a better future.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Reen,
As a person outside the cultures of origin, you have that view of it. I love the dance and so do some, though not all of the dancers in countries of origin. to some it is, as stated in Von Nieukirk's book, "A Trade like any other". But they do not kid themselves that it is an uplifted and lofty minded dance form, either. They understand and accept the sexual connotations and they accept them. Even Lucy in her interview with National Geographic some years ago stated that. When asked about being a Muslimah and dancing she did not say it was a lovely, nonsexual dance from. she instead said that "God is forgiving".
And if we get disillusioned it says less about the culture and dance of Egypt and more about how we often do not want to look at the whole truth of the dance, but are in a position of luxury where we can pick and choose what appeals to us. (Though I would hope that we would instead really LOOK at the entire picture on the cultural level and make our decisions based on that. Remember also that rich dancers are in a way better position than poor ones and most of us would qualify as rich in comparison to the poor there.
I have seen a lot of sleazy videaos coming out fo the Middle East, and I have not thought of this side of things as hidden. Reen, I think it is just new to you, and still pretty painful....
Well, I think the video that is the subject of this thread proves that they do not keep it quiet. It has been out for some time and is only one example of the publicizing of these issues.
Many of the women here can not qualify for help either.... My daughter is one example of a single mom who can not get her medical needs met, for example.
I have not noticed any lack of information. I have been aware of these things since shortly after I started dancing.
And I am truely saddened that the "creators" of the dance really make disgrace out of it....
One man's disgrace is another's entertainment. In many cases, it is seen with the same casual observance that one would give a girl who strips down to g-string and pasties at a birthday party here in the west. Many dancers do not hook as well, though some do...... just like here in the west. the creators of the dance have the right to define the dance in any way they want, and I am sure that Badai Masabni and others were well aware of what they were doing in context of the greater culture, and decided to thumb their noses at it, just as many dancers decide to do now. Those who have a choice, that is. The others are very much just like here with regards to women who have no choice but to take sleazy jobs because they have no money, no support system, no education and no chance at a better future.
Regards,
A'isha
Tarik Sultan
New member
Gosh its not about the DANCE!
Dance is PERFECT!!!!
It is how it is represented in Egypt, and how many people get disillusioned when it is too late? I mean you never see that on internet, I suppese everyone who worked in Egypt just keeps it quiet?
I understand it sucks to say that's it is the reality there.... But also many girls dream to work in Egypt not knowing what it is like.... and Others are just too scared to lose their business trading , etc with Egypt so they also keep quiet?
And I suppose in the West one can get single mom child allowance, or medical help... and well bare nessesities are denied there...
But THAT is not the point.... but that lack of information??????
And I am truely saddened that the "creators" of the dance really make disgrace out of it....
They don't hide the facts. Its not the dance that is the problem its the position of women within the culture and how they are viewed if they step outside of those boundaries. Let me say this. It is not true that all dancers in Egypt are prostitutes. But it is true that there is a large segment of society that believes that since these women show themselves in public, they must be doing other things. Now are there some dancers who also do other things to supplement their income, of course there are and that just makes it worse for everyone.
For some women, dance is a profession that runs in the family. If they are from an artistic family, then they have the protection of the family behind them and are safe from unwanted attention. Suhair Zaki use to be accompanied by a male relative every show she did. I've also seen dancers in Egypt who had family members waiting for them and escorting them to their jobs. Nevertheless, the assumption form the majority of the population is that they are up to no good. Even when it is known that they are not prostituting, they are still looked down upon because being a dancer is considered a very low class profession.
Now as far as the realities of what you have to be prepared for as a woman on your own in Egypt, there have been many dancers who have spoken out about the real situation. My teacher Morocco has been making this clear for well over 30yrs now. The problem is that most people would rather believe their fantasy than the truth and often times shoot the messenger. To be a dancer in Egypt, one needs to have a strong character and good connections. I know women who dance there. Some of them have to be very careful what they do in public because the establishments that heir them would fire them if they did anything that even hinted at prostitution activity. And then I've known other women who worked in places where the management tried to get the to do "favors" for valued customers, promising that it would make them stars..... well.... they didn't feel the need for stardom that bad, but I'm sure there are others who allowed themselves to be taken advantage of in this way, just like women in the entertainment industry here. The dance is one thing, the complications and dangers of being a woman in a world that doesn't appreciate them or value them as human beings is another. Don't be fooled into thinking this is an Egyptian or Middle Eastern problem. Its world wide, make no mistake.
Salome
Administrator
I was reading through this thread and it made me think that, yes, it often seems confusing or shocking to new (and not so new) students, who are told, by and large, that 'the dance' has had a long position of social enjoyment by and for the people... and is not the seduction harem fantasy it has been made out to be in the west (so true!). It is an art form, that's the western mantra, used to repel the stereotypes (used it myself a time or two!). Then along come some of the realities of dancing for pay in... Egypt for example... that 'tarnish' the precious ideal of Oriental dance, the art form.
And/or how many times have 'we' seen a video of a Shaabi wedding dance performance and it's bump and grind in a hot pink micro mini? Or a picture of a Turkish dancer in a barely there costume, ass cheeks a showin? It runs contrary to what we are taught as students, naturally, people feel an impulse to say that's not right, she's ruining it with the tarty outfit and loose behavior, it's not real dancing or whatever. I have to admit that at one point I came through a bit of this judgment myself! And then got over it. It is part and parcel and that's the reality. That doesn't mean I don't have a preference, if the choice is watching the latter or Sema, it's gonna be Sema. I'm interested in the art of it rather than the more ends-to-a-means type dancer (though this is illuminating too!).
IMO, If prostitution did not occur AT ALL with Oriental dancers I don't think it would really change anything toward making it an acceptable occupation for daughters, wives etc. It would still be an immodest profession.
I'm not trying to liken Oriental dance and stripping to each other but for the sake of relatability... In the US, if you strip, you're considered fallen right? You probably smoke, drink, maybe get high, have sex partners, maybe even hook and/or associate with people who do. Even if none of those things occurred in the exotic dance industry the profession itself would be way outside of what society considers a respectable profession. Of course that doesn't deter a zillion different types of men (and women) from patronizing strip joints. It wouldn't change one's social standing in regards to their job.
And/or how many times have 'we' seen a video of a Shaabi wedding dance performance and it's bump and grind in a hot pink micro mini? Or a picture of a Turkish dancer in a barely there costume, ass cheeks a showin? It runs contrary to what we are taught as students, naturally, people feel an impulse to say that's not right, she's ruining it with the tarty outfit and loose behavior, it's not real dancing or whatever. I have to admit that at one point I came through a bit of this judgment myself! And then got over it. It is part and parcel and that's the reality. That doesn't mean I don't have a preference, if the choice is watching the latter or Sema, it's gonna be Sema. I'm interested in the art of it rather than the more ends-to-a-means type dancer (though this is illuminating too!).
IMO, If prostitution did not occur AT ALL with Oriental dancers I don't think it would really change anything toward making it an acceptable occupation for daughters, wives etc. It would still be an immodest profession.
I'm not trying to liken Oriental dance and stripping to each other but for the sake of relatability... In the US, if you strip, you're considered fallen right? You probably smoke, drink, maybe get high, have sex partners, maybe even hook and/or associate with people who do. Even if none of those things occurred in the exotic dance industry the profession itself would be way outside of what society considers a respectable profession. Of course that doesn't deter a zillion different types of men (and women) from patronizing strip joints. It wouldn't change one's social standing in regards to their job.
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Tarik Sultan
New member
Very true, but when you take into consideration that most people feel the exact same way about female singers, (except perhaps if they are classical singers who perform in concert halls), then you realize it has more to do with what is considered appropriate for women in public more than anything else. As far as the slutty bunch... I think we should be honest with our students about the reality of the situation and put it in proper perspective. There are dancers who are at the top of their field and are artists such as Sohair Zaki and then there are the low class spread who are not exactly hired for their dance skills. That's the reality with all art forms. There are people who write great novels and people who write pornography, both are writers, but there's a big difference in the intent of the two.
Lydia
New member
Reen sweety, i am sorry that you feel so bad and that you did not realy know what there is for sale yet in the oriental dance world....unfortunetly it is not so pink at all,and we can only atleast for our small circle around us to leave another footprint a differant one ...one that is liked and loved by people...it is a very complexed problem...it is not just the dancer its the whole package that many woman are living in..i have met hunderds of dancers that come from egypt to the Uae....foreigners and arab girls ,egyption girls...american ,russions...most of them went treu hell and back to be able to work in Egypt,its only a hand full that is content and made it treu and is happy, I worked in Egypt for 1 year before i came to the uae and what i saw made me go and never wanted to work there again.its just to much what is going on and i did not want to feel like i am fighting a systeem on a daily base and faced with the coruption that go,s on behind the scene,s...it is to depressing and for me took away all my desire to dance,so i went..i do think its inportant that new dancers know this ...how very diffecult the road is in Egypt and many other arab country,s to work as a artist...i have seen honestly hundreds of girls goin back home brook and feeling depressed and in some cases much worste....so i think its good that you put this thread so people are aware and know what they can face when they go there...it is difficult to accept for new dancers almost on a dayli base i get mail from dancers from all over the world and always asking the same thing ,,can you get me or help me to get a job in Dubai or egypt,, its so difficult for me to say,,do you know what you get yourself into?? I would feel terrible if i tell someone ok and then they get in a situation like that...it is realy tricky to come here and a get a GOOD job jobs are there but a good one is not easy to find...I never wrote about this i think in this forum? perhaps i dont want the face arguments on this issue ,i hate arguments so that is i geuss why i did not...so Reen dont be upset, you are to sweet for this world!!!!have a nice day Lydia
Lydia
New member
What i forget to say,and what is inportant...most dancers in the middle east dont dance because they love to dance...they dance purely for the money and want to make money fast so they can get out...because they know most people look down on them...its completly differant then the reason why most western people dance,,,,like lebanees girls i see that come from a wartorn country no money no nothing but have sisters and brothers at home that need to eat so?????Its the same for Iraqi girls...so its a complexed issue all together....dont you wish there are no borders and no wars and we could just all live together and be happy.......
Reen.Blom
New member
Thank you Salome for your post! I feel better now.... Cos I see that I am not the only one...
Lydia, it is good that you can tell us about these things with your experience and years you lived in Middle East. I do also feel it is important that new dancers are educated, because it is dangerous! We all know about the human trafficing, but of course many people do not know WHAT the dance scene in the ME like.
They think they gonna go and dance there and gain experience, and then the dreams break horribly.
I did not mean that someone is 'hiding' the info, but of course those that get abused and have terrible experiences are not likely just to tell everyone, but just say, oh I worked in Egypt for 2 years, had great time and I mean why say I worked in some cheap and sleazy place etc....
I am sure I am not the only one who has "illusions". I thought it had to do JUST with the position of women, and her "public exposure", but the bitter truth is that dance and sex industry are mingled in the ME....
An average student thinks of 'Belly dancer' as say Ansuya in tasetful pretty bedlah rather than a shaabi dancer in some sleazy outfit... ????
You guys who have experience and have travelled etc know better.... but for the rest of us all is left is either live illusion, or maybe have it broken in a painful way....
Are there any sites that talk of reality of dancing in the ME? Like for dancers contemplating work in ME? I was wondering... Can we have a sticky thread somewhere? I wonder if anyone would want to contribute... cos we see now and then posts about work in ME....
I dunno.....
Lydia, it is good that you can tell us about these things with your experience and years you lived in Middle East. I do also feel it is important that new dancers are educated, because it is dangerous! We all know about the human trafficing, but of course many people do not know WHAT the dance scene in the ME like.
They think they gonna go and dance there and gain experience, and then the dreams break horribly.
I did not mean that someone is 'hiding' the info, but of course those that get abused and have terrible experiences are not likely just to tell everyone, but just say, oh I worked in Egypt for 2 years, had great time and I mean why say I worked in some cheap and sleazy place etc....
I am sure I am not the only one who has "illusions". I thought it had to do JUST with the position of women, and her "public exposure", but the bitter truth is that dance and sex industry are mingled in the ME....
An average student thinks of 'Belly dancer' as say Ansuya in tasetful pretty bedlah rather than a shaabi dancer in some sleazy outfit... ????
You guys who have experience and have travelled etc know better.... but for the rest of us all is left is either live illusion, or maybe have it broken in a painful way....
Are there any sites that talk of reality of dancing in the ME? Like for dancers contemplating work in ME? I was wondering... Can we have a sticky thread somewhere? I wonder if anyone would want to contribute... cos we see now and then posts about work in ME....
I dunno.....
Tarik Sultan
New member
Honey what you're still not understanding is that it's not just with dance. If you're a female singer, you face the same problem. If you're an actress you face the same problem. If you are a model OH HONEY FORGET ABOUT IT SAME PROBLEM!
I'll tell you something, because I can see that you're struggling with whether or not the dance really is an art or just part of the sex industry. IT IS AN ART! The beauty, joy and love that you feel in your heart about the dance is true and authentic and REAL. That is what the dance is about, because that is what dance is. It's a gift from the creator. Never let anything stop it from being that for you. The fault lies with mankind, not the dance. People of low consciousness always seek to violate and pollute everything that is good. just look what they've done to the water on our planet. You can't find any body of water that has not been polluted or defiled. Does that mean that there was something wrong with the water, or is it that there is something wrong with PEOPLE!?
During the 18th, 19th and early 20th century, ballerinas were forced to prostitute themselves in the same manner that many dancers in Egypt are forced to. Does that mean that Ballet is not a beautiful art form? Of course not. There was nothing wrong with BAllet. The problem was the people around it and what they thought about women and the assumption that a woman in public was "available". Things changed for the ballet because the artists struggled long and hard for their art to be taken seriously and respected. So Ren, don't give up hope. Its because of people like you that our dance will find the respect that it deserves. Who knows when things will change in the Middle East, but you know what? We are all creating something much greater than the dirty minds and desires of the heartless and soulless pariahs who seek to make something ugly out of every beautiful gift the creator gives mankind. Be aware of the depths to which the human soul can sink, but always let the love in your heart and the gift that is this dance, keep your ship high afloat.
masrawy
New member
All good up to this point ... sound like the white Tarzan is coming to the jungle to make every thing right.
Tarik Sultan
New member
Well... I'm black. So it's Shaka Zulu coming back to Africa to make it right!.... Does that make it any better? :lol: Seriously though. What I mean is that its people like us around the world as a whole, who believe in the art who will change things, rather than those who see it as something to be exploited financially. This of course includes folks of Mid-eastern origin as well who are contributing to moving the dance forward, and there ARE more than a few and they are needed. Not all of them are dancers. People like you for instance, who believe in the dance as an art and share that view both at home and abroad.
Understand what I mean? If not we can take this outside budddy! Just kidding!:lol: