Bad News: EGYPT

[Tarik Sultan]

You'r black I am :shok: :shok:, I did not notice my friend.

Well to be honest, I only found out recently. I'd had the symptoms all my life, the darker skin, kinky hair, but I figured it was just a phase and I'd grow out of it. But one of my friends suggested I get tested when she noticed how dark I get in the summer without much effort, so I did and sure enough, it came back positive!:shok:

I now volunteer my free time giving talks at local schools and community centers for young people who may not be aware that they too are black. Its my way of giving back....

I do get your point, but it did not sound good in my big ears .. I may have left Egypt but Egypt did not leave me. that's why we hear thing different

I understand how it could have been taken the wrong way. I didn't mean it as Westerner versus Middle Easterner, only those of us who love the dance and see its artistic merit versus those who only look to exploit it for a fast buck.

 

[Jane]

This is a blanket statement and is NOT directed at any individuals! If it were I'd tell you! It's a difficult and complex subject.

No one (I hope) wants to take Egyptian dance away or disrespect the Egyptian people. I see people all over the world who admire belly dance and who want to have a perfect world where everyone is treated with respect and love. Unfortunatly, this is not reality. No country or culture is perfect, we all have problems. All over the world there is poverty, hate, violence and ugliness of all kinds. I think kind and loving people outnumber the bad ones though.

Most of the time I pretend that everything belly dance is a bed of roses. It's Orientalism really; projecting my fantasy expectiations onto Middle Eastern culture and not facing the reality. Belly dance is not my "real" life and thank heaven I don't do it to survive. Facing the ugly truth about our fellow dancers in bad situations is upsetting. Belly dance is said to be "empowering, artistic, beautiful, blah blah." What's so d@mned empowering about having to do it to survive? The truth is, it's easy for me to love belly dance as a middle class white american woman. I admire the dance and talented and gifted dancers from many places, but I don't know if I would have their courage to struggle with poverty and oppression daily. I don't know what *I* can do to help these women who dance/prostitute themselves because there is no other way. This leaves me sad and frustrated.

 

[Pirika Repun]

When I read this thread, a movie "Mamore of the Gaisha" come up my mind. Geisga is Japanese professional dancer, singer and musician still exist in there now. But I assume that not many people are doing compare to 150 years ago or so, but not sure. Unlike Oriental Dance or other Western Dance forms, they wear "Kimono" which cover entire their body to perform. However, still their IMAGE is of "Geisha" is "prostitute" instead of "Professional dancer" My point is it doesn't matter what kind of dance or costume you wear, always negative things associate with any kind of dance. Like Tarik said not only dance, bat any entertainment world face the same problems, because many times many societies conceder dancer as low status job.



I understand many of them shocked or disappointed by the reality some dancers are also prostitutes. However, IMO this is their choice. I mean some third world countries girls have no choice but become prostitute to help family or herself. Maybe the person has more talent to become dancer, so she can double her income. Maybe other dancers chose to sell sex for their fame or chance.

Have you ever soon movie "Show Girl" By Elizabeth Barkley? Main character (Barkley) slept with director and push main dancer's back from top of stairs to get main dancer position? Whey do they make these movies? Yes, it happens in real life. You never know.

It's all different reasons to become prostitute. I don't discriminate their job, because they have their own reason to become one. May be some of them were force to be, some of them were their own choice. Yes, Oriental Dance and any other dance forms are art and beautiful. BUT there is always down side of the business for any kinds of business. I understand that nobody want to think about your love of art form is used by sex business, but reality is yes it does happen. If you like or not.

 

[masrawy]

It get better

Well to be honest, I only found out recently. I'd had the symptoms all my life, the darker skin, kinky hair, but I figured it was just a phase and I'd grow out of it. But one of my friends suggested I get tested when she noticed how dark I get in the summer without much effort, so I did and sure enough, it came back positive!:shok:

I now volunteer my free time giving talks at local schools and community centers for young people who may not be aware that they too are black. Its my way of giving back....

Ooh Dear ... but look at the bright side... if you survived until your 20 birthday it start to get better and you have very good chance to make your 46 birthday too.
as for me I have been suffering from the Arabian syndrome ... it's the opposite of yours. I don't look like an Arab but my brain is wired like one, no curer has been fund for this one ... I get allot of headaches from that. :wall:

 

[Zorba]

A sign in a Belly Dance studio:

"Please don't tell my mother I'm a Belly Dancer.
She thinks I'm a madame in a whorehouse!"

Tarik is quite correct, entertainers in general, dancers in particular, and women dancers especial have always been seen as low class - worldwide. My Greek Dance instructor once told us that we, as dancers, were probably considered slightly above the piano player in the brothel, but only slightly. And *that* was about being folk dancers!

What doesn't help this conflation is "coffee table" dancers at Rakkasah, and BIG NAME Belly Dancers either mixing burlesque and/or exotic dancing with Belly Dance, or just promulgating sleazy dancing and/or costuming.

Such is the way of the world...

 

[Lydia]

For me its realy inportant that people will understand that it is not the dance...the dance is fine itself...there is a way to dance,there is a way to dress,and there is a way to behave...i was reading tariq,s mail saying its not only the dancers but aswell the singers actres ,models enz..what is treu...the time when i was in Egypt performing,i got a offer to dance and play a part.. acting in a movie with Omar Shariff...Of course i was very flattered and went the next day to meet the director and hade coffee with Omar Shariff and did a screentest and was hired for the rol ...the next day,s i met again with the director to get my paperwork and he xeplained everything about the movie ...i was verry happy and exited that me a small dancer was getting the change to be in a movie with Omar Shariff...the rol was not small either so it was kinda realy cool....till i got home , i was sharing the appartement whit very dear friends of mine egyption artist ,that already had helped me while i stayed in cairo...this people are very famyliar with the moviescene in egypt their father was a very famous moviedirector ,so they knew exacly what and how things are working...they told me ,please dont go treu with,if you take the job you have to sleep with the director,producer,actor,and you will go from hand to hand....
I was very upset disapointed because i was thinking there is my big change and i have to let it go...i never went back to the set and called it quits on the spot......
So you see its not the dancing its the people that are in this business,they use artist enz to make money in a bad way,
we all know that it is not only in the middle east that this is the case,its happening all over the world...but my point is that dancers are getting misled constantly by for example dancers that have been here and go home make websites saying I AM SO AND SO AND AM VERY FAMOUS in the middle east BLABLA and i know for a fact they never worked in a decent place...so by this other new dancers think wow i have to try that...i just want dancers to be aware what is going on before you jump on the plane thinking i gonna be famous in the middle east,its a hard road ...get your facts from people that know what they talk about not from people that want to be clever on you and want to make money on your back.....sorry for this long post but i realy wanted to say this for some time....Lydia

 

[jenc]

The reality of Bellydance in Egypt

 

[Reen.Blom]

Masrawy posted these in another thread:



I mean THAT is the reason the dance(oh the singer as well with that dancer all over her like that) has bad name in Egypt, and NOT the fact that its women in public. Women can be decent in the public, but automaticly they are believed to behave like that.

And we are wondering why Arabs dont approve of dance and say they dont want their women dance in public.

I think it is a BIG misconseption in the West. That we think that it is because women should not be exposed. I mean they should NOT be exposed like that.

Tarik, you are such a darling! *hug*
I love belly dance, and do belive it is ART, that's why I am doing Worldbellydance day website.

But NO i would not want to dance in Egypt, because it is made dirty there, just like the metaphor of dirty water. Why walk into dirty water, I rather find CLEAN one, let it be fantasy, like Jane said.

Yes and even famous Egyptian dancers often have these sleazy costumes... I am just disillusioned in EGYPTIAN bellydance.

Not the bellydance as ART.

 

[missanime]

Dear Aisha,
I do confess I had no clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But it is different in the Us and other Western countries with 'entertainers'... because those women have much less rights! So when their husbands and their families turn aways from them, they basicly have no other choice!!! Gosh they even threaten to kill them to save the honour of the family....

Most information we get is just sugar coated fairy tale... I always thought belly dance has a "bad name" cos well as we are told a women dancing publicly is nono in this culture... what a load of LIES! It is not THe REASON. Gosh I AM shocked. The real reason is that "real" belly dancers there have 2 businesess, and rather use belly dance to advertise other 'services'....

I suppose it is different in tourist big places, etc, but those women cast away by society and family with low or no income are basicly forced to do that by circumstances....

This is so heartbreaking.

I mean look at their clothes, they look cheap and trashy.... and here we are debateing every day and talking about respect to the artform....

It it does look like the costuming got worse recently.... well suppose it just reflects the other side of the 'business'???

I really was naive to think that BD is not popular there cos of religious or other reasons. NOW i see WHY.

Gosh that guy who's face was not shown... you know what? I totally agree with him. I would not want my daughter or sister to be a bellydancer THERE.
He also mentioned that he enjoyed the old dancers like Samia... well I guess Samia looks "conservative" compared to modern celebs....


And the worst thing is that high end dancers like Dina do not help... For goodness sake, why they have to dress so trashy???? I know she wants to shock and chellenge... Sex sells?

Yeah.... rrrrright.... Talk about "art of bellydance".... I am sick....

i believe that since bellydancing was historically done by gypsies (who were basically nomads, travelling and becoming charletons), used their dance to entice and lure their unsuspecting victims. because of this 'luring and enticing', it was also part of those cultures that we as westerners especially who are most shocked at what goes on STILL in some of those cultures and countries. it is *very* sad and always so tragic. Didem is one of my favorite bellydancers, but even she says that she would've had "bad things happen to her" if it weren't for the tv show she landed on. (you can find more about her here - Didem (Belly Dancer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Ooh Dear ... but look at the bright side... if you survived until your 20 birthday it start to get better and you have very good chance to make your 46 birthday too.
as for me I have been suffering from the Arabian syndrome ... it's the opposite of yours. I don't look like an Arab but my brain is wired like one, no curer has been fund for this one ... I get allot of headaches from that. :wall:

Ok, it a benign condition. As long as I'm very careful about what I do and say around police officers, I'm fine.

As for your condition. Its only fatal if you're have large deposits of oil on your person. Especially if your standing too close to a left wing Republican. But seeing as how you don't look show any outward signs of the Arabian syndrome, you're less likely to be a target. Given your geographic location though, most people will assume you suffer from Dominicantitis, or Puerto Rican palsy. Which may explain why grandmothers may feel the need to stuff you full of rice and beans and sweet plantains. But alas there may be no cure, for the Arabian syndrome, but if you stop banging your head on that wall like that maybe the headaches will stop.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

Well to be honest, I only found out recently. I'd had the symptoms all my life, the darker skin, kinky hair, but I figured it was just a phase and I'd grow out of it. But one of my friends suggested I get tested when she noticed how dark I get in the summer without much effort, so I did and sure enough, it came back positive!:shok:

I now volunteer my free time giving talks at local schools and community centers for young people who may not be aware that they too are black. Its my way of giving back....

I understand how it could have been taken the wrong way. I didn't mean it as Westerner versus Middle Easterner, only those of us who love the dance and see its artistic merit versus those who only look to exploit it for a fast buck.

:lol::lol: ROTFLMAO!
Yasmine

 

[jenc]

:lol::lol: ROTFLMAO!
Yasmine

Translation please I don't do texting!!

 

[Moon]

Rolling On The Floor Laughing My ..... Behind Off.

 

[Kashmir]

But it is different in the Us and other Western countries with 'entertainers'... because those women have much less rights! So when their husbands and their families turn aways from them, they basicly have no other choice!!! Gosh they even threaten to kill them to save the honour of the family....

Actually woman's choice is pretty fresh even in the West. I have friends who, when their drunken father walked out on their mother in the 1970s, their mother had to turn to prostitution to support the family. Now there is lots of welfare and women are able to work a range of jobs - but not 30 years ago.

Most information we get is just sugar coated fairy tale... I always thought belly dance has a "bad name" cos well as we are told a women dancing publicly is nono in this culture... what a load of LIES! It is not THe REASON. Gosh I AM shocked. The real reason is that "real" belly dancers there have 2 businesess, and rather use belly dance to advertise other 'services'....

Actually that doesn't necessarily follow. And from what I understand the performing sexual act itself for money is only a tiny sliver away from dancing in public. These women don't actually have much further to fall. It isn't that the dance is in disrepute because prostitutes do it, rather those who dance are already at such a low part of society that actually making a living from selling a tiny bit more of themselves is a logical step.

 

[Kashmir]

Hijack

Well to be honest, I only found out recently. I'd had the symptoms all my life, the darker skin, kinky hair, but I figured it was just a phase and I'd grow out of it. But one of my friends suggested I get tested when she noticed how dark I get in the summer without much effort, so I did and sure enough, it came back positive!:shok:

Actually Tarik, as an outsider I'm often surprised at people from the US who identify as black and I look and say what?? But with you, yeah, I guess you'll pass - your skin does look dusky and I'll take your word that you aren't Greek or something.

 

[Kashmir]

i believe that since bellydancing was historically done by gypsies (who were basically nomads, travelling and becoming charletons), used their dance to entice and lure their unsuspecting victims. because of this 'luring and enticing', it was also part of those cultures that we as westerners especially who are most shocked at what goes on STILL in some of those cultures and countries.

Sorry - but that is just as much fantasy as the pure and artistic dance of Egypt If Aunty Rocky is around she'd have your guts for garters - both at the incorrect derivation of the dance and the racist picture of the Rom.

 

[missanime]

ok thanks. i've gotten such $hitty crappy info, but tried my best to decipher thru it. still failed. thanks for enlightening me big time - i *hate* when crap gets around

 

[Marya]

ok thanks. i've gotten such $hitty crappy info, but tried my best to decipher thru it. still failed. thanks for enlightening me big time - i *hate* when crap gets around

It is 90% crap, as you get more experienced you will get better at filtering the BS out. I still am learning myself (after 15 years) since I keep exploring other styles and basically you have to start over with each style.

I am now learning how to filter Persian dance BS.

Marya

 

[Zorba]

Put you in a box... what a shame, I will put you on a pedestal in the middle of a park, central park of course ...
Ooh ya ... you may have some problems than with the birds ... :think:

I love you man

Hmmm... Perhaps I should have my Shemadan on my head in that case? Thanx for the kind words!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I am very behind with this thread...

Back to the issue of prostitution.

I used to do seminars and training for health Authorities around the UK and Europe on this subject.
It is a very complex issue.

There is an aspect (albeit a small one) of choice in the work of prostitution.

Not everyone who is poor ends up working as a prostitute. There are many factors which influence this.
The main objective is money and for some, prostitution is the chosen way to get it. More money for less hours worked, flexible working hours when you have child care and the lure of potentially big money.

A dancer can earn alot from dancing and tips without having to go all the way.

These days, if a girl can become a dancer then she will view this as being better than risking herself touting for business as a prostitute. many are ex-prostitutes and dance because they want to escape it.
Hostesses in nightclubs are more likely to accept offers these days as they generally get paid alot less than a dancer. It is their job to flirt and talk to the customers and keep them happy.

Of course I am reffering to club life in Cairo and not the big names, but I doubt even big names have a squeaky clean image past regardless of what they profess.

It has been said here that it tends to be the entertainment business in general.

If this dance was not about some form of sexual titilation then why would dancers be so undressed? do people not consider this?
In a society where most women are covered up why would a dancer be so undressed?

Not everyone is sexually moved by this, and the sight is so common place these days that it has become the norm.

However, what we call 'art' need not be semi-naked, yes or no?

You dont need to show your belly, legs or your cleavage for moves to be seen, this is about showing what you have to offer.

In the West, we put an Western academic spin on this in order to make it acceptable to us. We love the dance and the glamour and the music etc. but we dont want the rest that goes with it. In some ways we re-shape it closer to what we need it to be.

It is easy to be sheilded from the realty whilst living in other countries but go to Cairo to pursue your dream and everything will change.