Bad News: EGYPT

[maylynn]

I am behind on this thread also!

Reen, I remember feeling disappointed as well learning about the dance/prostitution link when I was a beginner - that is certainly not how it is spoon-fed to us in the West, and we are taught to disassociate ourselves as much as possible from stripping or other questionable activities despite the fact that we (some of us) are (artful though it may be) dancing around scantily clad, in the eyes of the GP. We are taught bellydance is sacred, bellydance was originally danced only among women, bellydance is the dance of the mother goddess or what have you bla bla bla. Once I learned about the reality of the situation, it all made rather a lot of sense - and I just thought of COURSE that is the way it (generally) works in the MiddleEast/world with bellydancers/entertainers. I felt pretty naive as well, having been up on that high horse.

This is one of the reasons why I don't really hold with dancers who are extremely uptight about the associations of bellydance with stripping - no, bellydance is not stripping and I would be the first to say so, but based on the reality of life in the places where it originates, of course that is what a lot of the public opinion will be about it until hell freezes over and I don't think we privileged few have the right to look down our noses at those who don't have the luxury of making the choices we get to make. And that goes both for dancers in the ME as well as here in the West.

As for the race issue hijack - I was horrified after moving to the UK at the number of government forms that I have had to fill out (for immigration/medical/dental/whatever) that ask you specifically what race you are. That just would not happen in Canada where I'm from. Here they claim it's for medical reasons or whatever, but seeing how incompetent the medical system can be (don't get me wrong, I am a huge public health care supporter but of course when underfunded/mismanaged it has its drawbacks) there is no possible way they are tailoring my diagnoses to my race. And it just happens on form after form after form - initially (freaked out), I would tick the 'other' box and dutifully wrote in my ethnic mix (since you need to specify), but now I just hand them in blank. Especially now that the UK gov't has decided that it will require foreigners to carry special ID cards...

 

[cathy]

BBC article on sexual harassment in Egypt today

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt voices: Sexual harassment

I'd call this Bad, but not sure it's really News.

Cathy

 

[Jane]

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt voices: Sexual harassment

I'd call this Bad, but not sure it's really News.

Cathy

Are women in Egypt allowed to carry a gun, mace, or anything?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Egypt voices: Sexual harassment

I'd call this Bad, but not sure it's really News.

Cathy

Yes, it is pretty grim but not news.
I always think of Egypt being exactley the same as it was in the UK 30-40 years ago. The manners and behaviours are so like my childhood in the Uk it is uncanny. I feel this harrassment fits in the same way. I remeber my mum being shouted at and followed on numerous occasions when I was a child, we were flashed at and this was part of daily life.
It still happens but much less these days, there are laws in the UK and if a workman or anyone who is a work does it, then they can be dismissed.

I have spent long enough in Egypt to have a daily life there and not been harrassed like this.
I know if happens and does with regualrity to all women, but I have never ever experienced or seen anything to this degree.

Perhaps I just look to scary, I did punch someone in the gonads once in downtown, he swerved into my path with his hand out to grab my (**&.
My friend had not seen him do it as she was busy chatting so she thought I had lost the plot.
He and she was so shocked, but he still was nearly crying trying apologising.

I just wear an expression on my face which says just F****** try it!

I feel much safer reacting to this in Egypt than I do in the UK, it has gone crazy here and people are scared into silence.

 

[Aniseteph]

I just wear an expression on my face which says just F****** try it!

Yay! :dance:

I've heard tales of female Western tourists attracting unwanted attention because of dressing innappropriately or just being obviously Western (and therefore a slut ); had no idea that decently dressed locals got the same.

I'm not as shocked at the seedier side of BD in Egypt as I am at the idea that people would go out there and assume their concepts of what belly dance is all about hold good there too. Scary.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Yay! :dance:

I've heard tales of female Western tourists attracting unwanted attention because of dressing innappropriately or just being obviously Western (and therefore a slut ); had no idea that decently dressed locals got the same.

I'm not as shocked at the seedier side of BD in Egypt as I am at the idea that people would go out there and assume their concepts of what belly dance is all about hold good there too. Scary.

I can see how this may appear scary and confusing, however, most Egyptians I have met really love dancing.
It is more of an issue around women who are paid to do it, rather than the dance itself. You have also seen clips on this forum of your average belly dancer in Egypt. Who would want their daughter to grow up aspiring to be a dancer?

The sexual harrassment discussed about in Egypt also includes 'compliment' comments like we endure 'wolf whistles'.
I am 40 and deal with this kind of harrassment most days working in the youth centre which I run. Most grow out of it. Most of the culprits in Egypt tend to be frustrated young men like anywhere else in the world.

 

[gypsy8522]

If this dance was not about some form of sexual titilation then why would dancers be so undressed? do people not consider this?


However, what we call 'art' need not be semi-naked, yes or no?

You dont need to show your belly, legs or your cleavage for moves to be seen, this is about showing what you have to offer.

It's nice to see someone being realistic for a change.

I was mostly struck by the irony of that last phrase "this is about showing what you have to offer", it sure is!

I wonder if anyone also ever considered why we don't often get to see men dancing around in public half naked whilst women shove dollar bills down their ahem.... belts. But hey, it's all about the art, right?

 

[gypsy8522]

The sexual harrassment discussed about in Egypt also includes 'compliment' comments like we endure 'wolf whistles'.
I am 40 and deal with this kind of harrassment most days working in the youth centre which I run. Most grow out of it. Most of the culprits in Egypt tend to be frustrated young men like anywhere else in the world.

Well, I don't need a compliment when I didn't ask for one, more if it's coming from someone I just met in the street for 2 seconds!

I have been catcalled and leered at everywhere, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, London, New York, but it never really felt like the kind of harrassment you get in Egypt, and it keeps getting worse. Saftey is about the only good thing in Egypt that is not gone yet. I would hate to see that disappear too.

But I agree that most of them are frustrated young boys that have nothing better to do, I mean the unemployment rate is pretty high. These are mostly people who have nothing to lose. You will never see a doctor or a lawyer catcalling a girl passing by the street while on his way to work. Just imagine his embarrassment if his boss or a colleague sees him!

 

[Sita]

As many have said this is far from restricted to Egypt or belly dance. Dance like other performance arts has always had this historical association with prostitution, courtesans and other shady activities in many cultures including those in the West.

Dance. after all. has always been a good way to 'show-off' or present yourself and attract attention sexual or otherwise you can see this in any club or music video - It doesn't mean however that it's the only use or value for dance.

For many places, people, culture etc being an actress, dancer, singer is not a respectable occupation and not something that would be acceptable for a member of their family and that it also not restricted to just women.

I also think it's important not just to think this happens in the lower end of the entertainment industry but as others have pointed out it happens a lot in the mainstream and popular entertainment industries a case in point is India and Bollywood. Not so long ago there was interesting doc on the Bollywood casting couch.
Here's a selection of clips from it:

I think the whole situation shows the importance of every entertainer having a strong support network behind them and being aware of these issues. In my Performing Arts diploma we were made to do a course on self protection and safety no matter what our discipline or gender.

A while ago a doc on ch.4, I think, about the effects of the war in Iraq showed how many Iraqi women (refugees) have become trapped in prostitution rings in many other countries. It showed a club where all the young women were doing general MED, like you would see at a family celebration although a bit more subdued, in a circle, dressed v, respectfully and behaving modestly. You honestly wouldn't have thought much of it really - however every women there was 'for sale'. It is this forced area of prostitution and human trafficking that concerns me more than anything else.

Sita

 

[masrawy]

/Cut
But I agree that most of them are frustrated young boys that have nothing better to do, I mean the unemployment rate is pretty high. These are mostly people who have nothing to lose. You will never see a doctor or a lawyer catcalling a girl passing by the street while on his way to work. Just imagine his embarrassment if his boss or a colleague sees him!

Hey gypsy,
For the past few years every time I go back to Cairo I keep telling my brother, they should suspend the driver license for everybody and send them to driving school first. But just last year I came to grip with it, looking at someone in a car driving in a stupid way I realize that the person driving that car would not have been driving a car 20 years ago and always he would stay that way. Cairo have changed a lot and there is a culture built within the culture. This is showing across everything low employment rate, education and basic decency that comes with it. Even with all of this I think Cairo is still a safe city for women to walk the street, many people will help if someone ask for it. The problem as I see it, is when the mob mentality take over a situation and a few Samaritans won't be able to help and things get out of hand quickly. But this could happens any were in the world too.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Well, I don't need a compliment when I didn't ask for one, more if it's coming from someone I just met in the street for 2 seconds!

I have been catcalled and leered at everywhere, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, London, New York, but it never really felt like the kind of harrassment you get in Egypt, and it keeps getting worse. Saftey is about the only good thing in Egypt that is not gone yet. I would hate to see that disappear too.

But I agree that most of them are frustrated young boys that have nothing better to do, I mean the unemployment rate is pretty high. These are mostly people who have nothing to lose. You will never see a doctor or a lawyer catcalling a girl passing by the street while on his way to work. Just imagine his embarrassment if his boss or a colleague sees him!

Maybe it is an age thing? I was harrassed here much more than I get in Egypt when I was in my teens and twenty's. Turkey was enough to put me off for life.
I am not saying harrassment is not bad in Egypt (not at all) I cant stand Luxor for that reason but that is a tourist thing. My daughter who is 16 gets a lot of hassle all the time in Cairo in the way of staring and comments like Muzza and Assil. She hates it and I so do I.
As for who is responsible, the answer is the same world over. Society.

 

[lizaj]

Well I am still gettng my head around the fact that in Luxor men are not just "ogling" and "harassng" the young and lovely like your daughter, Caro but they are prepared to do so with old trogs like me...can the prospect of a deluded old biddy be that attractive even with the prospect of cash!?

I mean snaring a beautiful young wife at least gives the prospect of beautiful young babies.
Of course one can always have more than one I suppose
Sad situation.
But seriously are women more harassed than they were 10 or 20 years ago and is Western sexual behaviour(either perceived or real) to blame?
Or their own societal change as well?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Well I am still gettng my head around the fact that in Luxor men are not just "ogling" and "harassng" the young and lovely like your daughter, Caro but they are prepared to do so with old trogs like me...can the prospect of a deluded old biddy be that attractive even with the prospect of cash!?

I mean snaring a beautiful young wife at least gives the prospect of beautiful young babies.
Of course one can always have more than one I suppose
Sad situation.
But seriously are women more harassed than they were 10 or 20 years ago and is Western sexual behaviour(either perceived or real) to blame?
Or their own societal change as well?

Not all the time, but in most cases, men after older western women in Egypt is about a passport or wealth and I have said before I could share a few horror stories on this.

I believe women are less harrassed now... unless it is my age??
There are much tighter restrictions on 'compliemnts and wolf whilstles' in the uK and all are viewed as sexual offences.

Western sexual behaviour is not the blame because if it was, you would not get the same in Egypt or Yemen would you?
A mini skirt versus Hijab equals sexual harrassment. It is about the behaviour of men and it appears to be connected to class and opportunity BUT not always. Doctors are well know for doing more than 'compliments' when it somes to sexual harrsassment (they go the full way into assault).

This type of behaviour should always be challenged.

I want to tell you a story about my Egyptian friend who burst into tears when we were harrassed by a group of school boys in cairo. Because of her reaction, her husband will no longer let her go out alone. Great result!
I just screamed at them angrily, they sh** themselves and left.

I was so frustrated with her as she is not stupid and has a good job and everything. She turned straight into a little helpless girl.
Conditioning....society.

 

[masrawy]

Well I am still gettng my head around the fact that in Luxor men are not just "ogling" and "harassng" the young and lovely like your daughter, Caro but they are prepared to do so with old trogs like me...can the prospect of a deluded old biddy be that attractive even with the prospect of cash!?

Well now you complain because they don't discriminate.

I mean snaring a beautiful young wife at least gives the prospect of beautiful young babies.
Of course one can always have more than one I suppose
Sad situation.

no matter what you well be considered a big improvement in the family off spring, you havent seen the wives at home in el Saaid .... each wife will have bigger moustache than the husband.


But seriously are women more harassed than they were 10 or 20 years ago and is Western sexual behaviour(either perceived or real) to blame?
Or their own societal change as well?

sad but true, but hey I got my hair graped from the back once in time square in NYC :redface:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

sad but true, but hey I got my hair graped from the back once in time square in NYC :redface:

See how we all experience something different and different types of change?

less wolf whilstles and more assaults..mmm. Madness.

I think it is definately less safe in the UK these days, I personally feel more safe in Egypt although crime is on the rise there also.

 

[khanjar]

It is interesting to note though, the use of 'wolf whistles', some saw as sexual harassment, but others saw as a compliment being paid, the woman being whistled at had met with approval in her basic role, that of being a possible mate.

Yeah, I have worked with people that wolf whistled, but a woman walking past was seen as a welcome distraction to work, when working up high with bricks and mortar in the full face of the elements which were often at their rawest.

So now wolf whistling is out, not pc, so how can someone offer their approval to another of the opposite sex, are we no longer allowed to pay compliments ?

The thing with sex, is it is the basis of our existence, without which we would not exist and despite what a person may be in their professional existence, they are still a basic human, but we as humans have learned that not every passing female is something to be mated with, but compliments can be paid.

So, of the majority of you here, if you have been wolf whistled at, did you take offence to it, or did you smugly smile to yourself, that you are successful in your gender, just for being your gender .

 

[khanjar]

And on the subject of prostitution, I do not judge a person for their choice, as it is their choice, but I do pity those who are without choice.

Prostitution you have to remember, it being services for payment of some form has been around since the dawn of mankind and at one time it was considered an honourable profession.

The legal term, is selling the body, sexual services for payment, but in the unlegal definition is it not what we all do, sell our bodies for payment when we go out to work, our bodies, our skills and our labour for a wage ?

If the wage is low, do we not take on other jobs for more payment ?

It is also interesting to note in places where prostitution is legal and controlled, there is often less instance of sexual crimes, assaults and rape etc.

 

[lizaj]

sad but true, but hey I got my hair graped from the back once in time square in NYC :redface:

He he right on I should be grateful they love my lived in face and body that is a map of life and my name's Shirley valentine...right? nah wrong Scouser:lol:

However don't get me wrong I know women very happily and successfully linked to younger men...I'm just jellousssss!!!!!!!!

 

[Oona]

As a relatively new dancer, I'm so glad that this topic is being discussed. It is not nice to be in the dark about some of what really goes on behind the scenes for female bellydancers and other female artists and women in general worldwide. I had read about the increase in conservatism in Egypt and how this was affecting bellydance, the film industry and similar, but, like the OP, I didn't know about how much prostitution was going on. I believe that some people might call me naíve or a sheltered 'Western woman' for not knowing, but without these types of discussions amongst the international bellydance community, how would we ever learn? I agree with earlier posters that young dancers who dream of dancing in places like Cairo could really benefit from information about the realities of dancing in Egypt and the Middle East at this point in time.

I've not been immune to sexual harassment myself. I've gotten it in small doses throughout my life (in the US and the UK). I know that women struggle still in every country, and my heart breaks reading about the experiences of others who have had it worse off than me. A bellydancer who is VERY close to my heart has been through the ringer and back in her life, was raped at an early age. Both she and I feel that bellydance can be flirty and fun, but why is having less clothes on ALWAYS perceived as sexual? I have a naturist friends who would have serious words with anyone who thinks that just because he's naked all the time that he must wanna get sexual attention. I know that when I eventually dance on my own for an audience hopefully wearing something that makes me feel stunning (LOL), the thing that won't be in my head is 'Oooh look at me ...don't you want to take me to bed?' What I will hopefully be thinking of, if I can keep my lunch down from nervousness, is 'I love you people!' and will do my best to make you happy and channel energy in my dance to my audience. I personally see bellydance as a building and exchange of energy, for me it just happens to be channeled through dance. I also love my body, I love the way I can make it move, it is a gift and to not use it would be a waste. I personally don't find dancing in lots of clothes actually does show off the dance very well. It's like covering really great speakers with a pile of laundry...all the beauty of the sound is muffled.

I struggle with idealism and fantasy of bellydance as well as many other aspects of life as well, and feel 'let down' by society quite often as I do want more for humanity, I want us to evolve. I can't help it, it's jus the way I'm hard-wired. I believe that we can do so, even still. I believe it is one thing to say 'Yes, ______ is happening', be that prostitution, a widening divide between rich and poor, overpopulation, racism, etc. But I think it is another thing entirely to say, 'yes, this is the way it is,' but also to just accept it with apathy and do nothing. I personally don't think that just because something has been done for millenia, such as prostitution, that it must be ok and doesn't hurt anyone. I also don't believe that one or more particular countries has to ride in on the 'white' horse and rescue the world because I know that things are just as crappy in those countries. I believe it has to be a world-wide effort.

This might sound silly, but sometimes I wish the international bellydance community (and all forms of professional dance really) could just converge in certain places on earth at certain times and just dance in the streets and take over the hearts of the people. It's so sad that dance is still looked down on. To me, it doesn't make sense, because I personally don't believe that men are slaves to their libidos and can't control themselves. To believe that doesn't say much for men and I know many men who would agree with me. I have so many other wishes for humanity too...I have apathy too, sometimes all of the bad stuff gets too overwhelming. But once I've had my cry, I build myself up again and learn to fight another day to help raise the consciousness of the world to a higher level.

Signing off now,
Oona

 

[Reen.Blom]

As a relatively new dancer, I'm so glad that this topic is being discussed. It is not nice to be in the dark about some of what really goes on behind the scenes for female bellydancers and other female artists and women in general worldwide. I had read about the increase in conservatism in Egypt and how this was affecting bellydance, the film industry and similar, but, like the OP, I didn't know about how much prostitution was going on. I believe that some people might call me naíve or a sheltered 'Western woman' for not knowing, but without these types of discussions amongst the international bellydance community, how would we ever learn? I agree with earlier posters that young dancers who dream of dancing in places like Cairo could really benefit from information about the realities of dancing in Egypt and the Middle East at this point in time.

I've not been immune to sexual harassment myself. I've gotten it in small doses throughout my life (in the US and the UK). I know that women struggle still in every country, and my heart breaks reading about the experiences of others who have had it worse off than me. A bellydancer who is VERY close to my heart has been through the ringer and back in her life, was raped at an early age. Both she and I feel that bellydance can be flirty and fun, but why is having less clothes on ALWAYS perceived as sexual? I have a naturist friends who would have serious words with anyone who thinks that just because he's naked all the time that he must wanna get sexual attention. I know that when I eventually dance on my own for an audience hopefully wearing something that makes me feel stunning (LOL), the thing that won't be in my head is 'Oooh look at me ...don't you want to take me to bed?' What I will hopefully be thinking of, if I can keep my lunch down from nervousness, is 'I love you people!' and will do my best to make you happy and channel energy in my dance to my audience. I personally see bellydance as a building and exchange of energy, for me it just happens to be channeled through dance. I also love my body, I love the way I can make it move, it is a gift and to not use it would be a waste. I personally don't find dancing in lots of clothes actually does show off the dance very well. It's like covering really great speakers with a pile of laundry...all the beauty of the sound is muffled.

I struggle with idealism and fantasy of bellydance as well as many other aspects of life as well, and feel 'let down' by society quite often as I do want more for humanity, I want us to evolve. I can't help it, it's jus the way I'm hard-wired. I believe that we can do so, even still. I believe it is one thing to say 'Yes, ______ is happening', be that prostitution, a widening divide between rich and poor, overpopulation, racism, etc. But I think it is another thing entirely to say, 'yes, this is the way it is,' but also to just accept it with apathy and do nothing. I personally don't think that just because something has been done for millenia, such as prostitution, that it must be ok and doesn't hurt anyone. I also don't believe that one or more particular countries has to ride in on the 'white' horse and rescue the world because I know that things are just as crappy in those countries. I believe it has to be a world-wide effort.

This might sound silly, but sometimes I wish the international bellydance community (and all forms of professional dance really) could just converge in certain places on earth at certain times and just dance in the streets and take over the hearts of the people. It's so sad that dance is still looked down on. To me, it doesn't make sense, because I personally don't believe that men are slaves to their libidos and can't control themselves. To believe that doesn't say much for men and I know many men who would agree with me. I have so many other wishes for humanity too...I have apathy too, sometimes all of the bad stuff gets too overwhelming. But once I've had my cry, I build myself up again and learn to fight another day to help raise the consciousness of the world to a higher level.

Signing off now,
Oona

Thank you for an interesting post!

I just watched a youTube video of Cory Zamora floor work and all the gross comments on it.... well that made me think... whatever we intend, we must also think of how people look at us... if we do floor work in bedah, and skirt with big slits, and not on stage but 'under people's feet' than whatever passion and muscule control will not be notices, but it will look lewd and undignified to an average person?

I think I made up my mind if i ever dance in public to be more covered- maybe sleeves, and body stocking etc.... Just my little contribution to make the art more respected... I want people to watch me dance rather than stare at my cleavage....