Discussing non-english threads

[masrawy]

Mosaic

I'll PM you than.
​

 

[Mosaic]

Mosaic

I'll PM you than.
​

No Problem my friend
~Mosaic

 

[khanjar]

I wonder, given that this is an international forum, how non English speakers feel when they see so much going on they either have difficulty in following, or cannot understand at all. Especially so for those of countries where the subject of this website comes from. Maybe they feel excluded from internet chat about a culture that is their own.

As to what might be said in that foreign script, I am sure there might be nothing untoward, as if there was, there are, I am sure people here with integrity that can understand the language written and there highlight the information as per the recent statement by Salome regarding conduct on her website.

I cannot understand the language written, but that is no fault of those that write. The fault lies with myself for the arrogance in the belief that my language cancels all others.

I wonder given the interest in the Arabian culture, if not those here might do well, to learn more of the communication of the region. Forget the worldwide language of communication, but learn to ask those qualified to speak, how one should approach their language.

 

[Ariadne]

The fault lies with myself for the arrogance in the belief that my language cancels all others.

??? Because on an international forum where people come from multiple countries with multiple backgrounds expecting that people will write in the one single language they all have in common is arrogant? I am not sure I can agree with your reasoning/assumption. It's not like we're all visiting each others countries here, it is a forum and a forum made in English. Isn't that doing the exact same thing that you are complaining of? If you don't like people who speak English going to other countries and expecting everyone to speak English why should someone who visits an English board expect others to speak and understand their own language instead? If I was to go to a forum written in a different language then English (such as here, here, or here... I hope none of them are inappropriate since I can't tell ray I would expect that I would have to write in the common language on those boards. Not that any of that matters since the policy on this board is that it is welcome I just have to disagree with your diagnosis of "arrogance".


In the end we are all responsible for our own choices and actions and no one else. Choose to act or react, the choice is ours.


I wish you luck in your interest in learning another language. I am afraid I don't have time myself though I very much am hoping for a copy of Leyla Lanty's DVD “Habibi You Are My WHAT?!” she is making. Oh please let it work out.

 

[Kashmir]

This is an English forum... why don't you provide a translation? It's not nice to exclude people by speaking your native language on a forum where most people can't understand that.

I find this a really odd comment. Who says it is an "English forum"? People converse how they will - some in English, some in Spanish, some in Magyar, some in Hebrew, some in Arabic. Honestly we only occasionally slip into our foreign lingo to slag off at the loopies.

 

[Kashmir]

i understand the objections. It feels odd. as a matter of fact we are socialised that it is rude to speak in 'secret' in front of others, and this just seems to be an online version of that...its quite natural to feel odd or suspicous...i don't recall anywhere in the rules saying that the language of the threads must be in english.

Interesting - I guess growing up with English as a second language household this was never a part of our upbringing. I know my father after over 50 years of living in an English speaking country still finds a relief at times to slip into his mother tongue. And then there are those concepts which just do not translate well into English. Or there are the words but somehow the communication is missing in the foreign (ie English) language.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

The way you used it (in English) does implies that you believe Moon "in particular" to have a "deep seated mistrust for Arabs" as the person who started the thread.

Oh dear... well it seems i am better understood when spreaking the little Arabic i know.

Perhaps means perhaps and a question mark is what it is.

I am not wrong to question anything.

Do we know for a fact that moon or indeed anyone else here does not have deep rooted negative feelings or thoughts that surface on occasions?

No we dont.

In essence you insulted her.

I am very direct with questions but not responsible for peoples sensitivities or reactions to questions.

I have no axe to grind with moon, but perhaps you have one with me?

And that is it in a nutshell. I don't know about other countries but here it is considered very rude to speak in front of someone in a way that you know they will not understand, to exclude them in their presence. If it were "private" conversation there would be no problem but as it is a public forum it is similar to doing it to someone's face; something that I think that would bother just about anyone if it happened in person. By not providing at least a touch of explanation for those who don't understand it is the equivalent of being rude "to your face". I am reminded of when I went to a party where 90% of the people were from China and spoke Chinese (don't ask me which) in front of me throughout the night. Someone always took the time to let me know what they were discussing even though I couldn't really participate well so that I would not be excluded.

I admit it has bothered me to know that I am completely excluded from a thread I may find very interesting but I try not to let it get to me since I understand why those participating would want it.



BTW, if that recipe for Dr. Pepper is in there I want a copy too.

Do you have a problem with non English threads or exclusion?

as everything you have written implies this... it also implies that you are talking through moon and echoing your own feelings rather than moons.

I am having to provide explanations for my flaming English every few minutes, but I dont see any of that going on in the Arabic thread (and they are from different countries).

So you want a little explanation?

will that be enough to satify you?

I doubt.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Moon; I copy-pasted what you have written on your own profile:

Moon
Thanks for the warning Mya, I'm afraid I might have seen it a little too late but oh well, I expect they will completely ignore my post, or talk behind my back in Arabic, or say something in English which I will probably pretend to not have noticed.
I just really don't understand people who come to an international place, then the first thing they do is find people from their own country or a country who speaks the same language and talk with them in private. *sigh* Can't they just send each other pm's?




And you scold Caroline Afifi for suggesting you mistrust Arabs?

BIZUPT!!!

How very dare I? :think:

PS This was written in a public place and should have been as a PM if it was to remain private.

It does refer to Arabic only.

 

[Freddie]

I started the day in a great mood, despite the builders who were coming to fix our collapsed kitchen ceiling not being able to do the job. I sat down at the PC to start on a three-hour airbrushing session and thought I'd log in for a little light relief first.

Then I read this thread, and now I am sighing and feeling drained and exhausted. It is such a shame that for some reason there is so much conflict, paranoia, over-sensitivity and blatant bad manners on this board. I see that some members have made an effort to calm the storms by creating threads with a more positive tone, but here we are again.

The fact that there is a non-English thread without translations doesn't bother me. I'm a member of Bhuz and there are several non-English threads there. When I log in I just mark the foreign-language forums and the swap-meet forums as read and then see what else is being discussed. It's not a problem.

But the Arabic thread on this forum does make me feel uncomfortable. I'll try to do a devil's advocate and turn the tables round a little to explain. Feel free to correct me if I am one of the paranoid.

So, take this scenario:

There's a cricketing forum hosted by and based in Qatar. The members are all obsessed with cricket, and they all "talk" in Arabic on the forum, even though many of the members are from different parts of the world. There's the occasional spat but people usually get over it.

Then an English-speaking westerner comes along, doesn't introduce themselves (as almost every other member has, and for which there is a dedicated section of the forum), has a very anonymous profile, and their first post is the creation of a thread in English, that very few others understand. I'll give this English-speaking person the name "George" for the sake of the story.

"George" then goes on to post really inflammatory postings on an Arabic-written thread discussing what Arabic people's first impressions of Westerners were and how their views have changed over time. This bit is all posted in perfect Arabic. So "George" is either native Arab with perfect English, or vice-versa.


When challenged, "George" then goes on to clearly state that he is not even much interested in cricket. WTF?? Why would anyone not interested in the main topic of conversation, to which the forum is totally dedicated, waste their time in this way?


George's avatar is very dramatic and anonymous. George's ID is dramatic and anonymous too. When George was tackled about this, he just said that all western names have meanings, what's wrong with that, they are not "just guttural ugly Western sounds". Well, as we all know, this goes for names in pretty much any language. But the thing is, as far as I can tell by looking at names lists on the web, I can't find the use of this word as a real forename anywhere. In the few occurrences I found of it as a surname, it is spelled slightly differently. The only sites I can find the word talk about wartime operations against Israel, in sentences about weather or in titles of books etc.

So that's why the Arabic thread makes me feel uncomfortable. I am suspicious of the motives of the creator of the thread, not suspicious of the thread itself.

 

[lizaj]

Interesting - I guess growing up with English as a second language household this was never a part of our upbringing. I know my father after over 50 years of living in an English speaking country still finds a relief at times to slip into his mother tongue. And then there are those concepts which just do not translate well into English. Or there are the words but somehow the communication is missing in the foreign (ie English) language.

A friend of mine is half Belgian/half British. When he used to visit elderly aunts in Belgium, they used to sit togther speaking their own version of a language - a mixture of French and Flemish. No one thought they were rude just eccentric!
Visit a British city these days and you will here Asians conversing in the language of their origins but lucky them they can swap into English whenever they like. Twas ever thus for us Scousers, drive for an hour and a half and we can't even read the roadsigns let alone understand the locals: that's Wales for you! Mind you no one can understand our English.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

A friend of mine is half Belgian/half British. When he used to visit elderly aunts in Belgium, they used to sit togther speaking their own version of a language - a mixture of French and Flemish. No one thought they were rude just eccentric!
Visit a British city these days and you will here Asians conversing in the language of their origins but lucky them they can swap into English whenever they like. Twas ever thus for us Scousers, drive for an hour and a half and we can't even read the roadsigns let alone understand the locals: that's Wales for you! Mind you no one can understand our English.

I am thinking that it is perhaps a British/Western thing to think it is rude to talk in your own language when you can speak in English.

I tend to question these things and find it rather bizarre that people assume they are being spoken about if the language is not their own.

If my husband answers his mobile phone in public and talks in Arabic people give him really disgusted glances.

I think they also do this when people speak in Hindu/Urdu etc.

I speak in English on my mobile in Cairo and nobody looks twice.

This is what i was reffering to as 'deep rooted'.

Many of us are programmed as westerners to mistrust all that is foreign.

Our knowledge of other languages is terrible and yet we expect everyone to translate, be 'polite' and converse with us in out native tongue.

Incredible.

 

[lizaj]

I am thinking that it is perhaps a British/Western thing to think it is rude to talk in your own language when you can speak in English.

I tend to question these things and find it rather bizarre that people assume they are being spoken about if the language is not their own.

If my husband answers his mobile phone in public and talks in Arabic people give him really disgusted glances.

I think they also do this when people speak in Hindu/Urdu etc.

I speak in English on my mobile in Cairo and nobody looks twice.

This is what i was reffering to as 'deep rooted'.

Many of us are programmed as westerners to mistrust all that is foreign.

Our knowledge of other languages is terrible and yet we expect everyone to translate, be 'polite' and converse with us in out native tongue.

Incredible.

I think those people exist but hopefully it is less so as more non-English is spoken in our streets.
I can walk through my quite small town nowadays and hear Arabic, Urdu, different Chinese tongues, Russian, Polish, Latvian, Portuguese, Spanish and Romanian and I am not talking of tourists.
We really do need to get over ourselves. Some people in the UK still have a Medieval fear of anything French and another percentage still read Boy'sOwn comics were "Gerry" is still the enemy.
I was in Preston yesterday and( hopefully again today) and nobody there seems to be particularly phased about the different tongues spoken and different styles of dress.

 

[Kharis]

I am thinking that it is perhaps a British/Western thing to think it is rude to talk in your own language when you can speak in English.

I was at a gig some years ago, and the band were all Egyptian and obviously spoke Arabic to each other. This did not bother me as I knew them all very well anyway. We sat at the bar during a break in the show, and they began to talk to each other, not once including me or translating anything to me. Had I asked, they would no doubt have explained, but I did not because I wasn't particularly bothered in a big way but I did feel a tad excluded, which is perfectly natural. Then, one of the singers arrived, and saw what was going on and proceeded to tell off the other band members for being bad mannered ignorant so and so's and how dare they be so rude as to speak in Arabic when an English only speaking person was present in the group. They duly apologised and sheepishly resumed the conversation in English, which I could then take part in. This singer, also Arab, apologised to me again and said that he was appalled that the others should be so rude. So, my experience is that its not just a Western thing to perceive this kind of exclusion as rude.

 

[Kharis]

I think those people exist but hopefully it is less so as more non-English is spoken in our streets.
I can walk through my quite small town nowadays and hear Arabic, Urdu, different Chinese tongues, Russian, Polish, Latvian, Portuguese, Spanish and Romanian and I am not talking of tourists.
We really do need to get over ourselves. Some people in the UK still have a Medieval fear of anything French and another percentage still read Boy'sOwn comics were "Gerry" is still the enemy.
I was in Preston yesterday and( hopefully again today) and nobody there seems to be particularly phased about the different tongues spoken and different styles of dress.

I don't think it's so much folks object to people speaking their native language but that it's when people do this as a form of exclusion be it deliberate or accidental.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I was at a gig some years ago, and the band were all Egyptian and obviously spoke Arabic to each other. This did not bother me as I knew them all very well anyway. We sat at the bar during a break in the show, and they began to talk to each other, not once including me or translating anything to me. Had I asked, they would no doubt have explained, but I did not because I wasn't particularly bothered in a big way but I did feel a tad excluded, which is perfectly natural. Then, one of the singers arrived, and saw what was going on and proceeded to tell off the other band members for being bad mannered ignorant so and so's and how dare they be so rude as to speak in Arabic when an English only speaking person was present in the group. They duly apologised and sheepishly resumed the conversation in English, which I could then take part in. This singer, also Arab, apologised to me again and said that he was appalled that the others should be so rude. So, my experience is that its not just a Western thing to perceive this kind of exclusion as rude.

So didnt you feel embarrassed that suddenly everyone had to speak English?

You see I really would and would say no problem and carry on.

If it was the other way around and we are sitting in the company of an Arab could everyone start speaking in Arabic to make them feel included? I doubt.

 

[Kharis]

So didnt you feel embarrassed that suddenly everyone had to speak English?

You see I really would and would say no problem and carry on.

If it was the other way around and we are sitting in the company of an Arab could everyone start speaking in Arabic to make them feel included? I doubt.

Why should I feel embarrassed? If I was in a group that spoke English and there was one person who's English was not so good, I would go out of my way to slow down and explain as best I could to that person what was being said. I would not turn my back on them, as the band did to me, and make them feel excluded.

Unfortunately, I don't speak any other language but English. I did not expect the band to speak English and it was not me who told them off but someone who could see that it was rude to exclude someone in a group where no exclusion was necessary. And no, of course we could not all speak Arabic to someone who could not speak English, but there are ways to not exclude someone, and at the end of the day, that band all spoke fluent English, so your point is misplaced here and has no relevance to what I'm saying.

 

[lizaj]

Sliding off topic but hey let's spread a little light!


We were at the IOM TT races and sitting in a pub/barwith German bikers we had befriended and over came the German World Champoin sidecar rider (who I idolised.Wow! Starry eyed biker-girl here) Of course they all chatted away in German until one of our friends started to cough and nudge the champion who blushed, kissed my hand and walked off. Later my husband asked what had transpired. Our champion had assumed my husband was German but heard me speaking English.
He had asked Eric "Where did your friend pick-up that nice local " tart " (he did say nice) and has she got a sister?" :shok: Well ,we did wear skirts short in 1970. Sometimes there are advantages to not knowing what is going on.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

[

QUOTE=Kharis;115521]Why should I feel embarrassed? If I was in a group that spoke English and there was one person who's English was not so good, I would go out of my way to slow down and explain as best I could to that person what was being said. I would not turn my back on them, as the band did to me, and make them feel excluded.

Unfortunately, I don't speak any other language but English. I did not expect the band to speak English and it was not me who told them off but someone who could see that it was rude to exclude someone in a group where no exclusion was necessary. And no, of course we could not all speak Arabic to someone who could not speak English, but there are ways to not exclude someone, and at the end of the day, that band all spoke fluent English, so your point is misplaced here and has no relevance to what I'm saying.

[/QUOTE]

I suppose it would be me in this situation and frequently is. I hate it when everyone starts to talk English because I am present, especially when it is a converstaion that would not have included me anyway.

I think though people expect people to speak English when they are in the Uk, fair enough but it does not change when we travel abroad either.

I am embarrassed at myself for everyone having to work hard to include me rather than the other way around which it very rarely is.

Speaking slower or louder in English is usually as good as we can offer.

This is what I mean by embarrassed.

 

[Kharis]

I suppose it would be me in this situation and frequently is. I hate it when everyone starts to talk English because I am present, especially when it is a converstaion that would not have included me anyway.

I think though people expect people to speak English when they are in the Uk, fair enough but it does not change when we travel abroad either.

I am embarrassed at myself for everyone having to work hard to include me rather than the other way around which it very rarely is.

Speaking slower or louder in English is usually as good as we can offer.

This is what I mean by embarrassed.

OK, I understand now. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I too feel embarrassed that I cannot speak another language other than English when I travel abroad. I feel bad that most English speaking people assume that foreigners should speak English to them in their own country.. and they make no effort to even try to speak the lingo. The problem is that most countries do speak English to some greater or lesser degree and this puts us Brits to shame for sure.

But the situation I was highlighting included some accidental exclusion that someone else picked up on. In a social situation where a people can speak both languages and there is one person who can only speak one, then it's bad form for the majority to choose to communicate in the language that the other cannot understand. And I was in a social situation as part of the group I was working with and drinking with.

 

[kayshier]

I started the day in a great mood, despite the builders who were coming to fix our collapsed kitchen ceiling not being able to do the job. I sat down at the PC to start on a three-hour airbrushing session and thought I'd log in for a little light relief first.

Then I read this thread, and now I am sighing and feeling drained and exhausted. It is such a shame that for some reason there is so much conflict, paranoia, over-sensitivity and blatant bad manners on this board. I see that some members have made an effort to calm the storms by creating threads with a more positive tone, but here we are again.

The fact that there is a non-English thread without translations doesn't bother me. I'm a member of Bhuz and there are several non-English threads there. When I log in I just mark the foreign-language forums and the swap-meet forums as read and then see what else is being discussed. It's not a problem.

But the Arabic thread on this forum does make me feel uncomfortable. I'll try to do a devil's advocate and turn the tables round a little to explain. Feel free to correct me if I am one of the paranoid.

So, take this scenario:

There's a cricketing forum hosted by and based in Qatar. The members are all obsessed with cricket, and they all "talk" in Arabic on the forum, even though many of the members are from different parts of the world. There's the occasional spat but people usually get over it.

Then an English-speaking westerner comes along, doesn't introduce themselves (as almost every other member has, and for which there is a dedicated section of the forum), has a very anonymous profile, and their first post is the creation of a thread in English, that very few others understand. I'll give this English-speaking person the name "George" for the sake of the story.

"George" then goes on to post really inflammatory postings on an Arabic-written thread discussing what Arabic people's first impressions of Westerners were and how their views have changed over time. This bit is all posted in perfect Arabic. So "George" is either native Arab with perfect English, or vice-versa.


When challenged, "George" then goes on to clearly state that he is not even much interested in cricket. WTF?? Why would anyone not interested in the main topic of conversation, to which the forum is totally dedicated, waste their time in this way?


George's avatar is very dramatic and anonymous. George's ID is dramatic and anonymous too. When George was tackled about this, he just said that all western names have meanings, what's wrong with that, they are not "just guttural ugly Western sounds". Well, as we all know, this goes for names in pretty much any language. But the thing is, as far as I can tell by looking at names lists on the web, I can't find the use of this word as a real forename anywhere. In the few occurrences I found of it as a surname, it is spelled slightly differently. The only sites I can find the word talk about wartime operations against Israel, in sentences about weather or in titles of books etc.

So that's why the Arabic thread makes me feel uncomfortable. I am suspicious of the motives of the creator of the thread, not suspicious of the thread itself.

So basically you have a problem with Awasef?

well i am going to speak out now...this is your second post where you bascially attacked her, with inferences....

i don't get it.

it is posts like these...offensive ones that make people go on the defense.

this forum is becoming a source of stress to me. it was fun when i started here, learning from so many people...but now the deep seated mistrust, bad manners and out right foolishness is getting to me.

i have tried on many occasions to look at bridging the gap..I have even done so in this instance...and you know what? it makes no damn sense because poeple are going to continue holding on to their myopic opinions instead of trying to look at things objectively...

I HAVE HAD ENOUGH!!!! can't people just act like adults???