Is it Proper to Complain About Students??

[CurlyBellyGirl]

I have noticed on some of the BD forums that I frequent (not particularly here) that teachers and so-called long timers often post things about their students and/or new dancers that I find somewhat discouraging and/or insulting. I wonder if other newbies have felt somewhat snubbed by teachers and dancers who seem to not value the opinions of new dancers or to think that new dancers have any worth... other than, of course, lining their pockets.

I am a new dancer and read some rather negative comments from people in my area (and possibly the school where I am taking lessons) and even though they were not directed to me or about me, they were still rather hurtful and just discouraging in general since it was not the first time I have seen something like this. It is hurtful to think that I could be going to a class and trying my hardest (and paying for it!!!) and an instructor would come to a forum and complain or rant about something I am doing as if my feelings or wants are not valid because I have only been studying for "x" amount of time.

I do realize that we all come here to share and that instructors do need to vent and to rant, but given that this community is very small (or so it appears to me thus far) it makes me wonder whether or not it appropriate to post things about students and/or new dancers on a public forum where that student, current students or future students can read it and become discourage? Is there really this level of cliqueishness in this community that says that your value is only based upon how long you have been studying and with whom?

I realize that BD is a very complicated art that takes years to master and perfect and requires an amount of dedication and commitment and that those who are serious about it treat it, well, seriously, but I wonder how new dancers can feel welcomed.

 

[Moon]

I think it depends on what the teacher is complaining about. If a new student comes to class, takes 10 lessons and starts performing "professionally" or even starts teaching others herself, I think the teacher has a good reason to complain about this student.
If a teacher says something like "This student is so stupid, she can't even do this move while I explained it a 100 times already.", now that would be wrong and mean IMO.

I think a beginning student is free to show/teach her/his own friends some moves for free or perform for fun as an amature on a family party or something like that. But students claiming to be able to teach others or perform professionally after only a few lessons are doing something terribly wrong. Even if you're talented and the moves are really easy for you, there's just no way you can really understand the music and the deeper meaning of the dance after such a short time.

I am not a teacher but a beginner student myself. I've been dancing for almost 2,5 years now. Some fellow students of mine started performing "professionally" after only a year and I don't want to sound arrogant, but these girls were the least talented of the whole group. I think this was wrong of them to do and I seriously think they are giving the dance a bad name. I would have agreed fully with my teacher if she would have said "You are not good enough yet and you are disrespecting the dance this way."
Now on the other hand, I have absolutely no problems with performing in student recitals together with students who aren't so good yet and make a lot of mistakes. If I would have a teacher who would stay "You are not good enough to join this student performance." (which she doesn't say, fortunately) I would think she was being quite mean.

So yeah, I think it depends on what exactly the teacher is complaining about.

 

[Eccaia]

I agree--It definately can get rather nasty. Most of the cliquishness or heirarchy that I've seen seems to be more writing-based for me than in person. When going to haflas, workshops, classes, etc, everyone I've ever danced with has been super friendly and helpful, not to mention inviting.

The only thing that I've found troublesome that despite how well I can dance, if I haven't danced for X years, I might be refused lessons, performance slots, or be allowed to dance with certain people. That "corporate" feel is the only thing I feel out of place in a small community.

Just as Moon said, I can understand feeling frustrated if I'm instructing students who feel they should go pro after taking a couple lessons. In those situations, I just would hope that those instructors would choose to take on an attitude of "what can I do to encourage these students to pursue bellydance but spend more time doing so?" rather than just venting about how immature they are acting. I'm sure if those students heard that, they would get pretty discouraged not to mention hurt.

-- Eccaia

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Teachers are students too -- in the constantly evolving "classroom" of the teaching environment. Teachers need a place to vent ocasionally and get advice and learn how to deal with students who present specific challenges.

I've had an issue of one student I've asked for help about, who has simply decided (despite all advice given to her so far) that after 5-6 months of classes, she should teach. I've asked for help on how to deal with this, because I do not believe she should be teaching yet. I haven't been rude, but honest, and if she sees these boards, she may get mad. I can't help that.

That said, there is no excuse for rudeness or sniping about a person on a public forum.

I wonder if other newbies have felt somewhat snubbed by teachers and dancers who seem to not value the opinions of new dancers or to think that new dancers have any worth... other than, of course, lining their pockets.

The thing is, and please don't take this the wrong way ... a whole LOT of times, well -- it's not that the new dancer doesn't have valid opinions, but rather maybe she just lacks the experience to understand WHY things are the way they are. Does that make sense?

It is hurtful to think that I could be going to a class and trying my hardest (and paying for it!!!) and an instructor would come to a forum and complain or rant about something I am doing as if my feelings or wants are not valid because I have only been studying for "x" amount of time.

Again, please don't take this the wrong way, but I've known a lot of newer dancers who are very excited about (for example) their idea to fuse bellydance with bhangra, and they put together what is essentially a disaster and then get upset when the teacher says, "I really don't think you should do that for the show." I've also seen newer students VASTLY overrate their own skill level -- believe me, I did this MYSELF in my Spanish dance class. I'm all like "oh yeah, I can do this" and my instructor is like "oh no, you are SO not doing what I showed you."

And something we often say is that newer dancers don't know what it is they don't know. A lot of people feel like once you've learned a few moves, you've got it all because they don't KNOW any better. But again, there's no excuse for outright rudeness, and there are specific forums that exist for teachers that are hidden to students.

Is there really this level of cliqueishness in this community that says that your value is only based upon how long you have been studying and with whom?

Okay, think of it this way:
Say you're having marital problems after 7 years of marriage. Who's opinions are you going to value more -- your friend who's been married 6 months, or your friend who's been married 16 years?

Or maybe it's like getting advice on how to discipline your child from somebody who HAS no children -- you'd have to think "why on earth do you think you know more about this than someone WITH children?"

WHO you've studied with is a tricky issue, especially if you want to go pro or be taken seriously as a dancer. If you have no such aspirations, then as long as your instructor is teaching good form and safe form, you should be able to enjoy what you're learning without any pressure.

I realize that BD is a very complicated art that takes years to master and perfect and requires an amount of dedication and commitment and that those who are serious about it treat it, well, seriously, but I wonder how new dancers can feel welcomed.

I know. It can be the same way with any kind of recreational dance. Lots of times adult ballet students feel like they're toadstools compared to the "Serious" students who have studied it all their life. Heck, I even experience this in the knitting community (knitters are very cut-throat, you know!).

There are know-it-alls in every facet of life. Surround yourself with people you can learn from and people who share your enthusiasm. Ignore rude people (cause they are EVERYWHERE) and be PICKY about where you place your loyalty and trust. Try to understand the opinions of people you don't agree with, but don't put too much energy into arguing. And just remember -- everybody vents.

My favorite quote from Baruch Spinoza:
"Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand"

 

[Jane]

I try to be very careful about hurting students feelings, that's why I use a pseudonym on this list. I can vent a bit and ask other dancers and teachers for advice without causing friction and becoming a politically charged @$$hole in my community. :lol:

 

[janaki]

IMO, a teacher is an instrcutor, a leader, a guide sometimes a parent... all in one. A lot of responsibilty. It is NOT acceptable for me that teachers criticise, vent, rant about students. As a good teachers you layout all the rules from the day one about learning, performing and teaching etc., etc.,....like how much there is to learn, how long it takes to learn, good example of performing and teaching, and also the examples of disasters if you are not qualified enough. I spend 10 min in every class just doing this, educating them and quoting examples and listening to their feed back. I also encourage students to come and talk to me about eveything and anything to do with bellydancing. A good relationship, good communication and good education about the dance ( just not the dance steps) will eliminate lot of problems and complaints. If have any troubles with the students, I useally ask for help and seek advise. Let me tell you what happend in my class recently.

One of my very beginner students (only learning for 6 weeks) came to me for advise and asked me that she was asked by her work colleages to perform in their annual ball. I was shocked at first, and you should have seen the look on the faces of my other beginner students that are dancing for few months. She is a jazz dancer and she wanted to do fusion on top of it. I advised her to let her colleagues/ audience know that she is begginer students and NOT a professional daner and she is sharing/showing/dancing what she has learned so far. I asked not to fuse the dances but asked her to do it like a medley. She was happy with that, I helped her with music, and the moves. In the end it was all a success.

With a proper guidence, I think disasters can be avoided. But still there are few students that break the rules and do what ever. I can only talk to them once more!!! All humans makes mistakes, these students that fly out too fast, most of them learn from their mistakes too.

 

[Shanazel]

Teachers are students too -- in the constantly evolving "classroom" of the teaching environment. Teachers need a place to vent ocasionally and get advice and learn how to deal with students who present specific challenges.

No decent teacher wants to hurt her students or undervalue them, but the truth is: we sometimes get extremely difficult and sometimes downright disruptive people in class. Most of my students have been absolute delights- lucky me- but it only takes one "challenging" student to wreck an experience for everyone. It is a boon for a teacher to have a place to go and whine, complain, emote, and seek advice from other teachers without having to disemble.

If reading about challenges teachers have with students upsets you, don't read the thread. I don't mean that in a snide "get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat" way, but offer it as a compassionate suggestion. Wait until you have a bit more experience and a little thicker skin before reading the "My students are driving me NUTS" threads. Go read the "my teacher is driving me NUTS" threads instead.

 

[KuteNurse]

I think on this forum, everyone is equal regardless of how many years they have danced and I have never had trouble. I do however, look up to many people here. There are wonderful role models even for someone at my age. Don't let little things like that bother you and just hang out with the POSITIVE folk around here. There is no reason just because you are a new dancer, you should feel inferior. Have some self confidence in yourself and feel good about what you have accomplished so far. Good luck with your dancing and learning.

 

[Kashmir]

Not entirely sure where you are coming from - but I'll take a stab. I assume you don't mean that a teacher writes something that her student specifically reads about herself on the forum, rather that teachers (and other dancers) express frustrations about their students lack of self awareness, inability to get the big picture, bad practice habits, poor judgement etc etc. In the first place the teacher should approach the student - but many, many times the student won't hear, doesn't want to know, is convinced of their own talent. This can be very frustrating to teachers - who often have little or no contact with other teachers. Venting can help. Sometimes other teachers can suggest ways to cope.

Sometimes the student's behaviour is so toxic a teacher needs someone else to say "cut that one loose" - it can be very hard to decide that on your own.

If however, you mean that teachers should never suggest that anyone is anything other than the most glorious example of dancerkind - then I say not only is that teacher poisoning herself, s/he is doing no favour to the student who, after all, is meant to be learning. Learning that there is more to the dance than doing a hip drop or figure eight is the teacher's job. They should not do it in a nasty way or put the student down - but it needs to get across.

 

[Lydia]

I think a teacher should not complain about students
This is how i see it,you are the teacher and you must have the dignity not to do so
If i have a problem with a student,i will talk to her... and believe it or not it is usely because they dont understand how the artist world realy works...you have to teach them how it works...that is your job as a teacher complaining i geuss is not a good thing you put yourself down if you do....most students look up to you so that will put them of if you complain about someone....last seeson i hade 2 girly,s in class that made the atmosphere ,,not nice,, lots of gossip sticking eachother in the back gossiping in the lockerroom enz then i got fedup with it went to the lockerroom and said in front of everybody,stop to gossip !! next time i hear anybody gossiping about anything she is out of the clasroom...it happend again and i then ask them on the telephone to please not come back to class...they simply kept on hurting other students with their comments and gossip...when people are asking about those 2 students now where they are ,i reply that i dont know i geuss they are busy....I am happy that i did it this way nobody realy knows what i did to fix the problem and everybody is very happy now in class including me,its inportant for me that students are getting along and i feel i am responsable to try to make it that way that is my 2 cents for today, have a nice day everybody

 

[CurlyBellyGirl]

If reading about challenges teachers have with students upsets you, don't read the thread. I don't mean that in a snide "get out of the kitchen if you can't stand the heat" way, but offer it as a compassionate suggestion. Wait until you have a bit more experience and a little thicker skin before reading the "My students are driving me NUTS" threads. Go read the "my teacher is driving me NUTS" threads instead.

Given that this is an open forum, I should be able to go ANYWHERE and not be offended. I would never write something that would be offensive or possibly hurtful to anyone (even if I just needed to "vent") and then ask that anyone who might be offended not go there. Saying that one has a difficult student is a cop out, to me. If you had a difficult child would you rant about them in a place they could possibly see it?

I do not think that teachers should just act like everyone is great and like they do not have issues with students because, obviously, they do. I guess having been a teacher briefly, I could never imagine bad mouthing any student in particlar or certain types of students no matter how frustrated in a place where they could possibly see it. That is like one of the very basics in teaching etiquette, I think. I also would never start a thread asking for opinions and then bash someone with less experience who answers giving their opinion.

Someone noted getting advice from someone who doesn't have kids or someone who has been married for a short amount of time and really I don't think advice is based soley on how long someone has done anything. One of my best friends has no kids and excellent advice on children. She has grown up around children and is a very observant person. Meanwhile, I know women with kids whose advice I would never take in a million years, so that argument doesn't really work for me. If I ask for opinions then I will respect all of them because I asked for them.

That said, I'm really not taking it personally. I am an adult. I know we all have our momens and frustrations. It was just kind of disheartening to see quite a few post griping about students in a short amount of time and sort of gave me that "great, back to high school and cliques" kind of feeling. I'm not going to let that bother or deter me though. I was just curious to see what others thought on the matter.

 

[gisela]

Given that this is an open forum, I should be able to go ANYWHERE and not be offended.

I really don't think that is possible. We can all try to be nice and polite to each other as I think we are already but people have different levels of when they are offended or when they think they are polite. Just see the Ishtar-thread. That is partly because it's an international forum but partly also just because people are different even within the same culture. Some have no problem with critique, others flee when something is slightly unpleasant.
I think that everyone can use the critique others get, to go through in their own minds: "how do I act in class? Can I be a better student?" etc, as well as the critique given in class: "She needs to controll her arms more, Do Ineed that as well? Am I paying attention to my arms?" That kind of thing.
However I do agree that as a teacher (as well as in many other jobs) you should have a certain level of proffessionalism to not slander or gossip about your students in a way that it could get out to a bigger group of people.

 

[Shanazel]

No matter what is posted in a public forum, someone is going to choose to be offended by it. Vehement acrimony distresses me, so I take my own advice and don't read many of the heated debates. The only thing that distresses me more is the contention that possibly offensive discussions should not take place in public forum.

In the best of all possible worlds, teachers would be selfless creatures, overflowing with compassion, wisdom, talent, god-like understanding and the ability to swallow all difficulties without comment to anyone. Students would be attentive, intelligent, diligent, pleasant, non-disruptive, willing to practice between classes, and patient with the foibles of their teachers. However, the world inhabited by most of us is filled with people who lose patience with other people, complain about the situation, seek guidance, and then go back out to do their best. I try to cut at least as much slack for people who have temporarily lost it as I hope they will cut me in the same situation.

 

[Aniseteph]

I agree with Gisela. If everyone was avoiding giving any possible offense we'd just be sitting around telling each other you are fabulous, which is no way to learn anything.

I've been dancing for 3 years now and I've also sometimes felt why do I bother even trying to dance? after reading some on-line critique sessions. But what you must keep in mind is that they are not talking about you. If your performances/video clips or whatever are clearly labelled as being a student performance, and you are not pretending to teach, or represent yourself as a professional belly dancer, no decent teacher or serious student is going to be deliberately nasty. They might offer constructive criticism, but they all know how difficult it is. You get points just for getting up there. If people are being bitchy about student performances on-line it says more about them than the student.

Same goes for your opinion on anything else - there are many areas where your opinion is just as valid as anyone else's. You don't have to have been studying for years to have a response to a performance. Or to know an Ugly Belly Dance Costume when you see one!

PS - what Shanazel just said. Daresay I can't leave rep (as usual ), but :clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[Kashmir]

Given that this is an open forum, I should be able to go ANYWHERE and not be offended.

Well, I'm offended by ultra-prudishness, by mystic claptrap masquerading as science, by fakelore, by teachers passing on this made up "history", by consumerism, by ... quite a few things actually. But, on the whole, I live and let live. Otherwise I'd only interact with a very small group of people. And I might even come to believe that everyone thinks like me (ie correctly )

If you had a difficult child would you rant about them in a place they could possibly see it?

I might if I thought it would be the only way they would see what they are doing - and more to the point see that the consensus of other parents/teachers is similar - ie Mummy isn't the only mean Mummy around.

Seriously, this is why a private teacher only group was formed on Bhuz - and now there are people complaining that it is a private group because they want to see what the teachers are saying - and no doubt they will then complain that they are offended! :think:

 

[CurlyBellyGirl]

I think my "I should be able to go anywhere" statement was misinterpreted. Of course, there will be topics that are sensitive, especially as they relate to cultures, etc. I am not speaking of topics that are debates, but rather when teachers come and post negative things about a specific student or new students in general. In my mind, this is VERY different than having a debate or sensitive dicussion on styles or whatever. With certain topics, such as politics or whatever, I can understand that discussions might be on the "hot" side, but I still think there is a difference.

I have been a member of other online communities and there were, of course, offensive threads and sometimes heated conversations, but no one ever openly bashed any of the other members or new people of the group. And when threads were offensive I don't think the offended persons choose to be offended. lol... I think sometimes it just happens when something rubs us the wrong way or strikes a sensitive cord for us.

I also see a differece in asking for critiques of one's dancing ability/skills/costuming, etc. If one asks what someone thinks of what they are doing then I don't see how one then should be angry/hurt with unfavorable responses. I would also hope that all feedback would be constructive criticism and not just bashing, which is different.

I'm sorry, but I think that if you claim to be a professional then you need to act professionaly at all times relating to your business. I work in a very stressful field and I can't just openly flame or rant about my clients no matter how big idiots they may be or how frustrated I might be in a place where they might potentially read it... in a place that is set up so that people in the field can keep in touch with eachother and share. They are my clients and paying the bills. But for them, well, there would be no work. Perhaps that's what makes these types of forums somewhat difficult because professionals also use them for personal entertainment/enrichment thus blurring the lines some. Just as newbies are students we are also clients, no?

Again, I posted this thread just to see what others thought on the matter and it's nice to read how everyone else feels and what everyone else thinks.

I do think it's totally appropriate to have a private place where teachers can go and talk about teacher things. I think that keeps the level of professionalism a bit higher, although I can understand people feeling like it causes seperation and wondering who/what is being discussed there.

Honestly, it's not that big of a deal to me where I would let if affect my real life or where I study dance. I know that the people posting these things would never say those types of things to anyone's face and I understand that people really do have moments when they just need to vent. But, if I did read something specifically about me or one of my classmates from one of my teachers I would be inclined to question their integrity if they could openly post negative stuff, but not talk directly to me/my classmates about it.

 

[Eshta]

I think you pose a very pertinent questions

I think it would be wrong for teachers to NOT seek advice from each other in a forum like this with such a wealth of experience in how to deal with certain situations that arise in the class. And not seeking that advice just because the student may possibly visit this forum and may possibly identify themself is NOT a good reason for not seeking out advice on how to deal with a situation. That's just cowardice.

But bitching and putting down students? That would be totally unprofessional and to be honest I think (or at least hope) it would not be tolerated on this forum by other teachers, and I am struggling to recall any such posts - please feel free to PM me if I have missed something, it does feel that you have a particular thread in mind. To bitch about one's own students would make me question the teacher's motives for teaching in the first place.

Bitching about other professional dancers? I confess that some threads have occasionally degenerated to a level that I don't personally find constructive any longer. So I don't read them. Makes it easier for me to read the 10 other threads or so that DO have constructive information in them!

I can understand how OD.net can feel a bit intimidating sometimes - there are a lot of strong personalities who are online often and know each other quite well and aren't afraid of healthy debate. There are some highly knowledgeable members and some highly passionate members, without whom debates would be much shorter and the forum would be a worse place for it. I think perhaps it can be easy for our 'veterans' to forget what it was like to be new to OD.net forum.

That said, Aziyade's post is very succinct and does a great job of explaining why it can sometimes appear that "newbies" comments often get rejected and seemingly "ganged up" on! This isn't meant to be harsh, but a lot of the people here really want to help and correct misinformation when it arises. It's not meant to be a personal attack and although these people may be saying the same thing, that in no way means they are in a clique - you only have to read the next thread (or sometimes even the same thread) to see the same group of people battling it out over some other issue!

If you do see some comment you find to be less than constructive, it's ok to question that post and it's possible to do that in a non-provocative manner. Ask why the poster feels that is appropriate, it's easy to misjudge people's intended tone and it's easy to write something that can be misconstrued. I would be personally very upset if OD.net ever did become a place to just be nasty about other dancers, so sending in the BDPD every now and again can't be a bad thing !

 

[CurlyBellyGirl]

Just for clarification, my original post noted that it was not here that I saw such posts. I actually have found this forum to be one of the most helpful, encouraging, responsive, etc. and really feel like I hae been welcomed here with open arms.

I, too, think it's important for teachers to seek advice as needed, but I my issue was more with complaining about new students who want to do certian things, or new students in general and not specificly seeking advice for a student who wants to do "x" or who is having troubles with "z."

I still wonder, just in my own mind, whether or not it's appropriate for teachers to seek answers to questions in a public forum where students can view them, but that again is just my own question. I haven't come to a conclusion either way, but based on my own RL teaching experience I doubt that I would seek answers in a place where my students could see that I was struggling with an issue knowing that they look to me for the answers and to be the one to show them the way, so to speak. I was not teaching dance though, so I dont know if the same rules would apply.

Either way, I have no issues with teacher seeking answers to problems, but do wonder about how things are phrased and at some of the way newbies have appeared to be regarded on other forums, which has not always been with a lot of respect (IMHO).

It is because I feel comfortable here, and beacuase I felt like I would not be personally attacked, that I felt safe to ask this question without fear of backlash or rude comments. As I am a newbie I realize that there is much I do not know about this art form, however I do think my views on life are valid and that my opinions should be repected. It's just a general view of life that we should repsect everyone. I do not look down on children because they are children even if I feel I may know more then them, KWIM? Sometimes children say amazing things and view the world in a way that I can't because I am an adult and feel that I do have all the answers.

Anyway, I am rambling now and it is late, so perhaps not the best time for posting. lol.... Again, I do feel very comfortable here and it was not here that I, personally, have felt like awkard or offended as a newbie.

 

[Shanazel]

Again, I do feel very comfortable here and it was not here that I, personally, have felt like awkard or offended as a newbie.

Good! I am glad to hear it.

 

[janaki]

Hi Curlybellygirl,

Everyone on this forum was new at one stage. Because you are new it doesn't mean you are any less or any more than anybody else. People on this forum have differents depths in their dance talent and the dance knowledge. I personaly respect everyone's input, good or bad. You learn from everything in life. I want you to feel warm and welcomed in this forum. I enjoy being on this forum. There are very passionate people on this forum, I am one of them. Happy posting!!!