Is it Proper to Complain About Students??

[Miranda Phoenix]

I think that each group (be they pros, teachers, students, etc.) should be able to carefully rant about other groups.

Something I read that's touched rather close to home has been the negative comments about coin scarves and newbies. I was really, REALLY proud of my first coin scarf. It's stunning, long, iridescent, maroon and black with lots of gorgeous gold coins. It set me back a bit to know that coin scarves are considered newbie accessories that we newbies "eventually grow out of". Yep, even writing that kinda bothers me. I now have several scarves, both coin and beaded, and I still love 'em, but I have to put them on knowing that in some folks' eyes, I'm labeling myself an immature belly dancer. *sniff*

A.C.

 

[Shanazel]

I like my coin scarves- never had one until a few years ago, and I am not exactly a newbie. They aren't meant for professional performances, but they are hardly newbie-brands, either. Haven't you seen all the teaching dvds featuring professionals in scarves?

 

[Aniseteph]

It set me back a bit to know that coin scarves are considered newbie accessories that we newbies "eventually grow out of". Yep, even writing that kinda bothers me. I now have several scarves, both coin and beaded, and I still love 'em, but I have to put them on knowing that in some folks' eyes, I'm labeling myself an immature belly dancer. *sniff*

:shok:
Well if those mature folks have nothing better to do than grade other dancers by the hipscarves they are wearing.....

I've got several beaded scarves, one quiet coin scarf I made myself so it would STAY ON and NOT SHED BITS , and one insanely noisy one that's heaving with coins and makes me sound like Santa and all his reindeer, and makes my behind look HUGE . It's fun to shake those coins (and great for practising isolations).

If it looks good (and it isn't deafening the whole class or making them don sunglasses to cut out the glare), who cares if it's "newbie"? IMO people look way stranger when they turn up to classes or workshops in performance style costumes.

 

[lizaj]

What new dancer doesn't want a hip scarf?

Mine all get themselves one as soon as possible. Idon't always wear one but no way am I gonna spoil the fun.
I do however advise them if they are going to a workshop that they sometimes aren't allowed or at best to take a quieter variety as a host of mega decible ones can be a real irritation to the instructor and those trying to listen to her/him.
And when the student turns up at a workshop dressed in her full regalia ( and we've all seen that!), if she's new is it just her fault ? Nooo .....teacher should advise on what and what not to wear at a workshop.

As to discussing students on a forum, teachers do like to share experiences and problems that crop up in teaching but it should be done in a general manner so that a specific student cannot be recognized.
The problem being there that if a number of students read the discussion, then there might be a case of "if the cap fits, you go and wear it!"
We often are hurt darts that were NOT aimed at us in the first place.

 

[Kashmir]

If it looks good (and it isn't deafening the whole class or making them don sunglasses to cut out the glare), who cares if it's "newbie"? IMO people look way stranger when they turn up to classes or workshops in performance style costumes.

You are joking ... no I guess you aren't :think: I guess they don't intend to sweat.

 

[Nafiseh]

You are joking ... no I guess you aren't :think: I guess they don't intend to sweat.

I was at a very challenging workshop recently where a woman turned up in a beautiful Eman Zaki. She looked gorgeous...until we were put through our paces and all started to sweat profusely. She clearly wasn't a beginner either.

I just spent most of my time thinking "your poor beautiful costume"

 

[Suheir]

The problem being there that if a number of students read the discussion, then there might be a case of "if the cap fits, you go and wear it!"
We often are hurt darts that were NOT aimed at us in the first place.

Ha! Talking of caps, I once read a UK teacher moaning about one of her students online - she was complaining that this particular student had bought one of those crocheted skull-cap-with-fringing affairs and looked really awful, then bought another one because she liked the first one so much. The student would, of course, been able to identify herself. I mean, who *cares*, anyway?!

 

[Azeeza]

Hi Curlybellygirl:

I haven't read anyone elses comments on here, but I did read your post.

You know, I think I vented when my teacher wasn't treating everyone fairly in class and speaking badly about other teachers, which I thought was wrong.

We all learn differently and there is one gal in my area who has only been dancing but a few months and she is terrific! I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw her perform. It was as if this dance was something innate for her!

Most of us struggle and sometimes teachers are asking for advice when they post something that sounds negative on boards when in real conversation they do not sound quite so demeaning.

So, I do understand your worries and dislikes, but this is not meant to be a negative forum. We learn a lot from critiques. Same as an art show.

Just my thoughts and I could be way off base as I usually am

Azeeza

 

[charity]

I have noticed on some of the BD forums that I frequent (not particularly here) that teachers and so-called long timers often post things about their students and/or new dancers that I find somewhat discouraging and/or insulting. I wonder if other newbies have felt somewhat snubbed by teachers and dancers who seem to not value the opinions of new dancers or to think that new dancers have any worth... other than, of course, lining their pockets.

I am a new dancer and read some rather negative comments from people in my area (and possibly the school where I am taking lessons) and even though they were not directed to me or about me, they were still rather hurtful and just discouraging in general since it was not the first time I have seen something like this. It is hurtful to think that I could be going to a class and trying my hardest (and paying for it!!!) and an instructor would come to a forum and complain or rant about something I am doing as if my feelings or wants are not valid because I have only been studying for "x" amount of time.

.[/QUOTE

i understand your view. i do not understand those that snub. for number one reason, if you love what you do and love what you represent you allow the art to speak for itself. those with good intentions will do good by it, those with bad, well you just will not change it no matter how you behave or what you say.

and of course the normal woman gossip-sort of talk, that is not even relevant to dance or work or whatever, i think that is just a very unfortunate female attribute. imo it is the inevitable result of curiosity or mostly insecurity/jealousy.

no matter how you want to sugar coat, rarely do bad or discouraging words come from any good concern or any warm place...truth is if you are new, you have to be welcomed? no. i say do what you love, prove nothing, and time will tell who it is that has put the foot in their mouth.

 

[charity]

and...deep breath

whats up with teachers ranting online? i guess thats fine, but lets get all the students to rant online too. see who is left for you to be teaching now.

how bad would it feel to be sized up by a newbie? pretty damn bad i would think. maybe this is the reason many veteran dancers are so unwelcoming in the bd community. they think newbies look at them and judge them rather than look to them as mentors or learning aides/guides. well i shouldnt try to speak for someone else or try to see a point of view because i am nowhere near there. just speculating, thats all.

oh and about the hip scarf, i never realized that was for newbies. of course it should have been obvious.

but i dont like to use hip scarves so much and i also dont like the idea of getting all dressed up in costume. i like a casual dress that allows you to see the moves just the same as being bare belly. i only have one of these dresses and it has holes in underarms so it is now useless to me. but i have many tops that i just wear over shorts and i'm more comfortable dancing like this anyway.

hmm, no its not proper to complain about paying students but thats just how it goes.

 

[Amarise]

I think that each group (be they pros, teachers, students, etc.) should be able to carefully rant about other groups.

Something I read that's touched rather close to home has been the negative comments about coin scarves and newbies. I was really, REALLY proud of my first coin scarf. It's stunning, long, iridescent, maroon and black with lots of gorgeous gold coins. It set me back a bit to know that coin scarves are considered newbie accessories that we newbies "eventually grow out of". Yep, even writing that kinda bothers me. I now have several scarves, both coin and beaded, and I still love 'em, but I have to put them on knowing that in some folks' eyes, I'm labeling myself an immature belly dancer. *sniff*

A.C.

I have been teaching for over four years now and I wear all sorts of hip scarves, coins or not when I teach. But if I go to a workshop where I know there will be a lot of students, I will choose a "quiet" scarf. Some workshops even request that. But I love all my hip scarves, coins or not!

Amarise

 

[belly_dancer]

What new dancer doesn't want a hip scarf?



The problem being there that if a number of students read the discussion, then there might be a case of "if the cap fits, you go and wear it!"
We often are hurt darts that were NOT aimed at us in the first place.

about the "darts for others"... I find that, while teaching class, if I notice, say ONE student w/ bad posture, & I yell out "POSTURE", invariably every OTHER student EXCEPT for the one I meant will stand up straighter!!!!!
ALMOST ALWAYS the ones who NEED some constructive critisism do not listen... & the rest of us end up thinking it is about us...
but....
this is NOT necessarily a bad thing... IF it keeps us on our toes & keeps us constantly striving to improve.....
I have heard (during haflas) certain teachers(& other students, for that matter,) talking sh#* about a dancer/or student while that dancer/or student is performing... but then congratulate/etc the same dancer the minute after said performance....
over time I have just come to think.... "what are they saying about me"... & when they congratulate me, I say "thank you" but make a mental note to practice more!!!!!!
I think it is a fine line as a teacher..on the one hand you do not want to DIScourage your student.... but on the other you do not want to ENcourage bad habits/behaviour/etc. either....
& I think it may be better to ask for help anonymously on line FIRST, IF one does not know how to bring it up w/ the student....
however... I have not, I think, heard anyone EVER bash a STUDENT on this forum.... have not been on other forums.... am I spoiled?????

 

[CurlyBellyGirl]

With everything in life I think it's not what is said, but the way in which it's said. And, yes, on other forums (or one other forum) I did see a post, which I found to be speaking negatively about new students in a very general way and was really a whine and a complain that, IMHO, was not appropriate to post in a place where new students are. It was not a story about a specific student in a constructive way and rather just criticised all newbies.

I think, in general, it's bad to make sweeping statements complaining about anyone where they can read it. In moments of frustration, one things many things that one might not say to someone's face, KWIM? If it's too hurtful to say to someone's face then perhaps it should not be posted, or at least that's what I would tend to think.

Also, if it's not constructive and just complaining or putting someone (or a group of people) down then what is the point of posting, I wonder? Just to get other teachers to complain about their students and have a good ol' "lets bash them session?" Again, this is not something I witnessed here, but did feel comfortable enough here to start the thread because I felt that it would be read and responded to with love instead of more "well, you're a newbie so you don't know squat" type of attitude.

 

[Miranda Phoenix]

Very interesting thread. I was a bit leery about reading it and again about posting in it but now I'm glad I did. I actually feel better about my love affair with coin scarves! *smile*

I think the comment about darts hitting home where they were never intended is very astute. I read voraciously and research nonstop any subject that piques my interest, which does, I admit, expose me to some (in hind-sight) ridiculous misinformation. And since I hate looking stupid (who doesn't?), I do sometimes become self-conscious if I read a negative comment that might apply to me.

Thanks to all of you who posted that you love your scarves! :dance:

A.C.

P.S. I had a rockin' good lesson today! Sweatin' and movin' and shakin' 'till I could scarcely stand! My glutes and obliques are feeling all gooey and warm right now. *grin*

Shimmy on, Ladies!!!!! LOL

 

[Wulpsie]

I have been teaching for 4 years now and I loovve my belts. Coins, beaded and or fringed, I think I have about 8 and when one looses a lot of goodies and gets retired I go and buy another 2. If I go to a workshop (esp when the teacher is from Egypt) I wear a tasselded scarve.
I never critize a dancer when she is performing, I will look at the dvd after and make notes, Then at the enxt class in general I will say that i noticed that arm movements or hip drops or shimmy needs working on, I never state who the dancer is and I make it collective so that all work on the problem. I always praise the dancer for getting up and dancing because that is the first confidence booster . Why pull her down. If they come after class and ask me what did they did wrong I will talk to them in private and start off with what they did right then say what I think was wrong but also say that others did it as well so we will concentrate about that move in class. Never make a dancer feel self conscious cos then they will stop dancing. I had that and another teacher brought up my self confidence and then asked me to teach when she could not and then asked me to take over the one studio and that is how i started to get in the teaching game. If I had stayed with my first teacher i think I would have stopped dancing.

 

[Fatima]

I always praise the dancer for getting up and dancing because that is the first confidence booster . Why pull her down... Never make a dancer feel self conscious cos then they will stop dancing.

That happens to me a couple of months ago. My former teacher told me I was a bad dancer out the blue. The reasons for her behavior are still not clear to me, but I was devastated. All I could think was: "why she didn't tell me that sooner? That way I wouldn't spend all that time and money on classes, workshops, music, videos, costumes and I wouldn't spend her precious time trying to teach me something I'd never learn." I felt as if she was teaching me only for profit. I was about to quit when I realize that I'm not the best dancer in the world, but I'm not the worst either. That's why I decided to get myself a new teacher and start all over again. If the new teacher has the same assessment I better quit for good, but I'm under the impression that's not going to happen.

I just think in all the other students she did the same and actually quit dancing and maybe they were good dancers. I cannot understand the need for pulling down the students. I mean, I'm a teacher myself and even in my worst student I can find a redeeming "something". At least my former teacher was straight forward and told me down in my face, but doing so behind my back as would be the case in a forum, that's just mean.

 

[belly_dancer]

That happens to me a couple of months ago. My former teacher told me I was a bad dancer out the blue. The reasons for her behavior are still not clear to me, but I was devastated. All I could think was: "why she didn't tell me that sooner? That way I wouldn't spend all that time and money on classes, workshops, music, videos, costumes and I wouldn't spend her precious time trying to teach me something I'd never learn." I felt as if she was teaching me only for profit. I was about to quit when I realize that I'm not the best dancer in the world, but I'm not the worst either. That's why I decided to get myself a new teacher and start all over again. If the new teacher has the same assessment I better quit for good, but I'm under the impression that's not going to happen.

I just think in all the other students she did the same and actually quit dancing and maybe they were good dancers. I cannot understand the need for pulling down the students. I mean, I'm a teacher myself and even in my worst student I can find a redeeming "something". At least my former teacher was straight forward and told me down in my face, but doing so behind my back as would be the case in a forum, that's just mean.

I am srry this has happened to you.....how did she tell you???? was it really out of the blue?? or after a particular peformance/class??? how long have you been dancing?? NOT AT ALL TO DOUBT YOUR WORD.... but being a teacher myself, I am trying to imagine the circumstances, why & how this came up..... how long has your teacher been teaching??? what style? how often does she perform?? just trying to get perspective....thank you for your imput...

 

[Eshta]

Fatima, I'm glad you didn't let one comment put you off dancing. It is totally deconstructive to call a student "bad", especially to not qualify that statement with some explanation.

At the risk of sounding rather like the moral at the end of a Disney movie, I found it a lot more constructive for me as a dancer to stop looking at what a dancer was doing "wrong" and instead look at the positive things about their performance that I could take away and learn from. That meant that instead of writing off the vast majority of all performances because they were "flawed", instead I could learn something from even the most... I'm struggling for the right word here, shall we say "trying" of performances!

To some degree I try to apply that philosophy when I teach - unless they are at risk of doing themselves an injury, I will point out what is good about what they are doing, and then ask them to push themselves a little further, what will make it that bit better, and accept everyone's natural limits.

More and more I'm beginning to concern myself less with "bad" dancers per se but inappropriate teachers .

 

[Fatima]

Hi, belly_dancer: Maybe all your questions will help me more than you imagine. Let see.

how did she tell you????

We were talking about the upcoming student show when she said to me that she decided to cancel it since none of the students have any technique at all. When I said that I was aware that I've been improving since last year and I wanted to show it she said I wasn't ready to dance in public.

was it really out of the blue?? or after a particular peformance/class???

Actually I was invited to dance at a friend's student show overseas. She was the one who decided what I danced and coreographed the music I danced to. The conversation happens when I came back from that experience. I was extremely happy and proud.

how long have you been dancing??

I've been taking classes with her for three years and I was dancing at the student troupe for two years. But prior to that she canceled all students presentation for the last 6 months at least. Only the professional troup was able to dance at all. She told me that either all students dance as well as the professionals or we don't dance at all. That explained to me why we weren't dancing.

how long has your teacher been teaching??? what style?

As far as I know she's been teaching for more than ten years. She's a seasoned teacher. She teaches Egyptian, AmCab and Fusion.

how often does she perform??

Actually not much, once or twice a month. She was pregnant at the time so I blame hormones for her reaction. Or maybe she though I was in the diva mood when I said I've improved. Actually I though that I was praising her since she has been my teacher all that time and if I improved it was because of her teachings. Maybe we have different views of what a student show should be.

After that she was mean to me in class so I quit bellydancing. After all I'm not as talented as most of my classmates. But then I saw one of those videos with lots of bellydancers and realized I was better than some of them. So I decided to start taking classes at another school from the very beginnig. I'm taking Basic classes and so far everything's fine. No complains about my bad technique, besides I don't want to be a professional, I just want to enjoy the dance and dance it the best I can.

 

[CurlyBellyGirl]

I would be floored if a teacher told me I was a "bad" dancer. I think that type of comment is totally inappropriate and not at all constructive and probably shows that the teacher is not a very good one.

I think one of the things that teachers should evaluate when judging a student's level is what the intention of the student is. For example, if someone is just taking the class for exercise/fun and only wants to perform in a student halfla then they can't be compared to someone who wants to go on the "professional" track.

My dad is involved in the dance community here, so I have grown up around ethnic dance all my life (Haitian, Senegalese, Congalese, etc.) and was dragged to classes for most of my youth and early teenage years. There were some always some students who were very committed and who I would see for years (one guy who always wore bright spandex I can still picture to this day! :lol and some of them were still "bad" dancers after years of lessons, but they were having fun and loved what they were doing. They would never be professional or be in a position to teach that type of dance form, but they were having a good time and that was their intention in taking the class to learn what they could based on their ability, talent, etc.

I do think, at the same time, that teachers should be honest with students who do seek a professional track when it's just not realisitic, but should look for constructive ways to approach the student rather than put downs which are never helpful.