Just how old is Bellydance?
- Thread starter lizaj
- Start date
Marya
Member
It all depends on one's definition of Belly Dance. There is a thread soliciting everyone's personal definition, but I haven't kept up with it.
You can't say how old BD is until you can say what exactly it is.
I think those who define very broadly as, say, any dance form originating in some part of the Middle East at some point in time, are the ones who will say it is thousands of years old.
I guess I am demurring.
Marya
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lizaj
New member
I'll go with this but has anyone else got a challenge and evidence?
Shanazel
Moderator
Maybe someone will come along to talk about the Chicago World's Fair in the late 19th century. Last time we had that conversation on line people started throwing things.
I think I'll just demur along with Marya and sit back with my bag of popcorn to enjoy the upcoming fireworks.
I think I'll just demur along with Marya and sit back with my bag of popcorn to enjoy the upcoming fireworks.
Salome
Administrator
I’m hopped up on cold medicine and feeling punchy so I’ll take the bait 
What I have observed is that the “belly dance is an ancient art form" sound bite is a really prevalent spoken statement and on dancer and dance related sites, printed materials and so forth.
As Marya said it depends on what your definition of belly dance is. Those that believe that belly dance is the same thing as (insert root folk dance here), I’m sure, feel there is total validity to that statement. I do not consider Oriental dance and ‘insert root folk dance here’ to be one and the same so it does not hold the same validity for me.
If I take my cue from folks in countries of origin - they see a pointed difference between their own recreational dancing (which has its own identity/flavor/context etc.) and performance focused/based Oriental dance.
The Turks have their social dance stuff, the Egyptians theirs and the Lebanese theirs and so on. Now I bet some of the root folk dances are as old as the hills. Don’t have anything to substantiate that but there you are. Some practices/traditions, even if they’re old as hell, are not deemed really note worthy and there isn’t much to go on in terms of documentation. In any event, I could get behind the assumption that root folk dances probably go way back.
Performance based/focused Oriental dance? Somewhere around 100 years. Badia was documented, Casino Opera does stand out. So that could have been the single nucleus that started it. But I’m going to give a little room to the possibility that maybe there were movers and shakers a bit prior to Casino Opera that didn't get much play but could have been setting the stage, so to speak.
What I have observed is that the “belly dance is an ancient art form" sound bite is a really prevalent spoken statement and on dancer and dance related sites, printed materials and so forth. As Marya said it depends on what your definition of belly dance is. Those that believe that belly dance is the same thing as (insert root folk dance here), I’m sure, feel there is total validity to that statement. I do not consider Oriental dance and ‘insert root folk dance here’ to be one and the same so it does not hold the same validity for me.
If I take my cue from folks in countries of origin - they see a pointed difference between their own recreational dancing (which has its own identity/flavor/context etc.) and performance focused/based Oriental dance.
The Turks have their social dance stuff, the Egyptians theirs and the Lebanese theirs and so on. Now I bet some of the root folk dances are as old as the hills. Don’t have anything to substantiate that but there you are. Some practices/traditions, even if they’re old as hell, are not deemed really note worthy and there isn’t much to go on in terms of documentation. In any event, I could get behind the assumption that root folk dances probably go way back.
Performance based/focused Oriental dance? Somewhere around 100 years. Badia was documented, Casino Opera does stand out. So that could have been the single nucleus that started it. But I’m going to give a little room to the possibility that maybe there were movers and shakers a bit prior to Casino Opera that didn't get much play but could have been setting the stage, so to speak.
Kashmir
New member
Actually Badia's first sala wasn't the Casino Opera. But I see your point.
Personally, I'd include the prefessional raqs beledi performed by awalim - but I doubt if that would push it back that much - maybe a hundred years?
If you make the definition of belly dance wider - you have travellers back 2000 years commenting on undulating and quivering dancers.
Caroline_afifi
New member
The first early clubs were allegedly in the area of Rod El Farag (Shobra)and Imad Edine by the Babeluk in Cairo.
These places were alive before the Casino Opera but they were more about plays and singing...I dont believe there was a dedicated place to watch just Belly dance. Badia's first nightclub in Rod El Farag but it was a 'Variety music hall' and artists like 'Shekookoo' (maybe spelt in a variety of ways) became famous from Badia Masabni's club. The dancing was part of the variety hall act.. and became one of the most popular aspects which grew and developed.
As we know, it was not just Raqs sharqi which was presented but a display of dance forms from around the world.. Egyptian style.
The attraction to dancers came long before this but it was Badia who stylised the dance as a entertainment for her muisc hall and added an air of 'sophistication'. She changed the face of Raqs Sharqi from beledi. That is what we know.
The term 'belly dance' may have a slightly longer history from the World fair or possibly before. It is commonly believed that it was a Western turn of phrase to describe the movements they saw within the dance.
It still is loosley used in this same way which on many levels makes it a bit dodgy, we really need to have moved on from this.
These places were alive before the Casino Opera but they were more about plays and singing...I dont believe there was a dedicated place to watch just Belly dance. Badia's first nightclub in Rod El Farag but it was a 'Variety music hall' and artists like 'Shekookoo' (maybe spelt in a variety of ways) became famous from Badia Masabni's club. The dancing was part of the variety hall act.. and became one of the most popular aspects which grew and developed.
As we know, it was not just Raqs sharqi which was presented but a display of dance forms from around the world.. Egyptian style.
The attraction to dancers came long before this but it was Badia who stylised the dance as a entertainment for her muisc hall and added an air of 'sophistication'. She changed the face of Raqs Sharqi from beledi. That is what we know.
The term 'belly dance' may have a slightly longer history from the World fair or possibly before. It is commonly believed that it was a Western turn of phrase to describe the movements they saw within the dance.
It still is loosley used in this same way which on many levels makes it a bit dodgy, we really need to have moved on from this.
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Amanda (was Aziyade)
Well-known member
So how old is beledi?
Seriously though, we have documented information about the dances of ancient Egypt. At some point between the time of the Pyramids and the time of the Price Is Right, SOMETHING changed. Can we trace "ancient Egyptian dance" forward to post-Arab conquest?
I'm going to put my metaphorical nuts on the table and say that everything that came before the Napoleonic era could be classified as the proto-orientale dances. Post war and in the era of European colonialism (mostly around the 1850's onward) proved to be a fertile ground for the development of Orientalist dances and the purposeful fusion of ballet with the regional dances of North Africa and Asia Minor. I place this as the genesis time point but decline to give a specific regional point for the origin of Orientale dances as there are many.
~*Spoon*~
~*Spoon*~
shiradotnet
Well-known member
I'm with Spoon and Kashmir. I think there was a dance style that we would recognize as belly dance before Badia Masabni came along. It was done by the Awalim, and it was performed at weddings, moulids, circumcisions, and other celebratory occasions.
The famous dancer Shafiqa el-Koptiyya, who was known for popularizing the use of shamadan in wedding performances, DIED in 1926. The height of her career was in the 19th century.
Like Spoon, I would peg the performing art of "belly dancing" back to the Napoleonic era. (I do feel that the social dance is much, much older.) The Napoleonic era was when the dance first started to be performed for outsiders, for people who came from outside the village/clan. That modification of the audience for the dance introduced a different purpose for it to be performed, the intention of entertaining strangers.
As for Badia Masabni, she actually had had a dance career in Lebanon before she moved to Egypt and opened her club. She certainly introduced innovations into the dance that affected what it looked like and what audiences expected to see, such as the use of a large floor space, but she didn't pluck the basic dance out of thin air. She used a pre-existing dance form and added embellishments.
The famous dancer Shafiqa el-Koptiyya, who was known for popularizing the use of shamadan in wedding performances, DIED in 1926. The height of her career was in the 19th century.
Like Spoon, I would peg the performing art of "belly dancing" back to the Napoleonic era. (I do feel that the social dance is much, much older.) The Napoleonic era was when the dance first started to be performed for outsiders, for people who came from outside the village/clan. That modification of the audience for the dance introduced a different purpose for it to be performed, the intention of entertaining strangers.
As for Badia Masabni, she actually had had a dance career in Lebanon before she moved to Egypt and opened her club. She certainly introduced innovations into the dance that affected what it looked like and what audiences expected to see, such as the use of a large floor space, but she didn't pluck the basic dance out of thin air. She used a pre-existing dance form and added embellishments.
Nobody knows how or why the belly dance started as a dance. Modern archeology is continuously using new techniques and technologies to shed more light on our belly dance past. Yet, at this time, no one knows the exact reasons for the original development of belly dance. There are indications that belly dance was common in pre-Aryan India and ancient Egypt. However, new discoveries also support the theory that belly dance is even older and was practised in the Goddess cultures of neolithic Europe, Africa, and the East - 6,000, or possibly many more, years ago!
iedge card
iedge card
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Farasha Hanem
New member
Then thou hast stepped through the portal. What you have posted is the usual stock answer found on most bellydance websites, and in many books written about bellydance. From what I have learned on this site, "bellydance," as it is done in the countries of origin, is actually merely the folk dance of these countries (such as Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, etc.).
However, I am open to learning, and to newly-discovered evidence, so would you mind explaining what evidence exists that proves India had anything to do with bellydance, or that it came from goddess worship? I'd like to be able to look it up and study it for myself, and I think others would be interested in seeing that evidence, too.
Amanda (was Aziyade)
Well-known member
Dance was common. Bellydance -- no evidence of it.
Irena Lexova has written a very good book about the dances featured in ancient Egyptian culture.
While I would love to believe this, it's a very interesting way of interpreting the archaeological record, but no more or less "valid" than any other interpretion. Marija Gimbutas has some interesting ideas, but that's all they are, at this point, and they don't seem to be panning out in the long run.
True, but a deliberately clinging to a pet theory because it suits your psychological or spiritual needs of how things SHOULD be is the portal to even greater ignorance. (That's a bit how I feel about Gimbutas.)
Jane
New member
Farasha Hanem
New member
That's right, I'd forgotten about that. Any representation of a human (and I think it also goes for animal) form in art is considered to be a "graven image," or idol, and is against their beliefs. That's why there are a lot of leaves and flowers in Islamic art, instead of people and animals.
Jane
New member
Actually this is not really true. There are plenty of pictures of people done by Islamic artist. Some are even of dancers.
Miniatures from the Topkapi Museum
The main problem is taking a 2d static picture and trying to figure out what dance move they could have been doing. It is impossible to make such a broad leap. Also, historically the music was quite different, we do have written records of some historic music and it doesn't sound like anything that could be belly danced to. Add to the mix the issue of how the movements (that we don't know) could have been interpreted the music (that sounds nothing like modern belly dance music) and voila'! You have a huge mess of nothing!
It's very likely that Balady, Saidi, Ghawazee, and Changi stylistically are very old, but tracing them is a nightmare. We have a couple of reports from European foreign travelers which mention things that could be something akin to belly dance, but it's still a pretty big leap to call it belly dance.
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