karena
New member
My cat hates my stick - runs if I pick it up (and she's never been accidentally hit with it or anything) but I had to extract her from my veil this morning! :lol:
Plus Size Dancers
- Thread starter LadyofLostTimes
- Start date
My cat hates my stick - runs if I pick it up (and she's never been accidentally hit with it or anything) but I had to extract her from my veil this morning! :lol:
Reen.Blom
New member
ShiroiOji
New member
I know I should wait until the end, after I have read everything to post. However, I couldn't. I have to say, it made me love you a little when you simply just came out and said "I'm fat..." Then when I read this part of your post, it simply made me love you all the more.
My weight and maintaining it is something I spend time, maybe too much time, on, because I can go either way; I used to be the skinny guy that people would callously yell, "Eat a cheeseburger" on the street to. I also had a "friend" who would often tell me how paunchy I was, (as he was uncomfortable with how heavy he was, and still is.) It's lovely to read this sort of compassion about weight being bidirectional from you, and I want to thank you for it.
ShiroiOji
New member
Hawkies, Gummies and Aerodynamics.
And please people, realize that I am being snarky here, and am in NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM actually suggesting that these actually be used!
da Sage
New member
If you loved that, you should hear me tell off people who say I'm bigboned. "Absolutely not. I'm smallboned and overweight."
belly_dancer
New member
QUOTE... "everyone"....
cannot decide who to quote/respond to in particular ... as y'all have good points... & cannot remember who said what....
as far as "fat (or old... or male... or whatever...) only shows/contests"...
wellllll........ in theory... those bd contests where you got knocked off points right off the bat for being "large" (did i read it on this thread/forum?? read it somewhere in the last couple of days...).... did they say in their "rules/handbook" that size was an issue??.... did it say "only size 10 & under need apply"?????
I can sort of see that MAYBE this is why some people want to have a "big beauty (only need to apply)" type contest IF this (the above) is what happens in the "regular" type contests/shows......
in a "perfect" world we would have a "belly dance only" contest (as in NO Jazz/ballet/modern/etc need apply)... buutttt then would the other dance forms be pissed off that they were not included?? (I think not?!?) & then WITHIN our belly dance only "contest" (or show...) would we not separate out the "categories" such as.... "Egyptian"/"Turkish"/"AmCab"/"Tribal"/"Fusion"......
is that SOOOO different as separating out say the sport of swimming???
I mean you have all your different "strokes" (styles) then you also have your "distances" (sizes?????) then of course the sexes are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT events.... & if you go slightly smaller than the Olympics... you also have AGE group swimming.. from the 5 & under category to the "Masters" (the old folks.. in swimming I THINK (do NOT quote me... been a while...) it is like 39 & over) & within the masters the even break the ages down further... by decade.......
I THINK.. what I am TRYING to say is... is it weird/unusual.. that people would want to compete (or in a show, be COMPARED) with(to) their "peers"???
just throwing that out there.... although in a "show" I can see for instance that it would be great (variety reasons) to have young/old/fat/scrawny/male/female/misc. be in a (say) "Turkish" BD show....
but on the other hand why not have a turkish/tribal/am cab/egyptian/fusion/etc "male (or big beauties... or "masters"... or whatever)only" show.....
I think the point is... how/where do you determine your categories....??
where do you "separate"??
I know cause I live in a smaller populated area... we would lump more together.... so here I do not think we could get enough male (or turkish or "large" or "old" dancers (much less interested audience!!!)) to populate a whole show!!....
maybe in one of the top 10 (population) cities this (the segregated) show could happen....
but...& lets face it... BD is rather a "niche sport" so in many places we would be lumped together.... did I contradict my own point????
I AM trying to say I see BOTH reasons (to separate... or NOT to separate!)
but if the not= young/physically perfect/female groups are being discriminated against.... I can see why you want your own show/contest/etc...
after all when I am hired as a dancer... they DO care if I am male/female.. young/mature.... girlish(skinny)/womanly(curvy)... & then depending on the ethnicity of the audience a turkish/egyptian/etc belly dancer depending on their needs.....
hope this makes sense... does not offend anyone... I am late... must run so no time to edit!!!
have a HAPPy FUn weekend!!!!
cannot decide who to quote/respond to in particular ... as y'all have good points... & cannot remember who said what....
as far as "fat (or old... or male... or whatever...) only shows/contests"...
wellllll........ in theory... those bd contests where you got knocked off points right off the bat for being "large" (did i read it on this thread/forum?? read it somewhere in the last couple of days...).... did they say in their "rules/handbook" that size was an issue??.... did it say "only size 10 & under need apply"?????
I can sort of see that MAYBE this is why some people want to have a "big beauty (only need to apply)" type contest IF this (the above) is what happens in the "regular" type contests/shows......
in a "perfect" world we would have a "belly dance only" contest (as in NO Jazz/ballet/modern/etc need apply)... buutttt then would the other dance forms be pissed off that they were not included?? (I think not?!?) & then WITHIN our belly dance only "contest" (or show...) would we not separate out the "categories" such as.... "Egyptian"/"Turkish"/"AmCab"/"Tribal"/"Fusion"......
is that SOOOO different as separating out say the sport of swimming???
I mean you have all your different "strokes" (styles) then you also have your "distances" (sizes?????) then of course the sexes are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT events.... & if you go slightly smaller than the Olympics... you also have AGE group swimming.. from the 5 & under category to the "Masters" (the old folks.. in swimming I THINK (do NOT quote me... been a while...) it is like 39 & over) & within the masters the even break the ages down further... by decade.......
I THINK.. what I am TRYING to say is... is it weird/unusual.. that people would want to compete (or in a show, be COMPARED) with(to) their "peers"???
just throwing that out there.... although in a "show" I can see for instance that it would be great (variety reasons) to have young/old/fat/scrawny/male/female/misc. be in a (say) "Turkish" BD show....
but on the other hand why not have a turkish/tribal/am cab/egyptian/fusion/etc "male (or big beauties... or "masters"... or whatever)only" show.....
I think the point is... how/where do you determine your categories....??
where do you "separate"??
I know cause I live in a smaller populated area... we would lump more together.... so here I do not think we could get enough male (or turkish or "large" or "old" dancers (much less interested audience!!!)) to populate a whole show!!....
maybe in one of the top 10 (population) cities this (the segregated) show could happen....
but...& lets face it... BD is rather a "niche sport" so in many places we would be lumped together.... did I contradict my own point????
I AM trying to say I see BOTH reasons (to separate... or NOT to separate!)
but if the not= young/physically perfect/female groups are being discriminated against.... I can see why you want your own show/contest/etc...
after all when I am hired as a dancer... they DO care if I am male/female.. young/mature.... girlish(skinny)/womanly(curvy)... & then depending on the ethnicity of the audience a turkish/egyptian/etc belly dancer depending on their needs.....
hope this makes sense... does not offend anyone... I am late... must run so no time to edit!!!
have a HAPPy FUn weekend!!!!
Artemocion Malta
New member
dear lady of lost times
I want to thank you all that have left such nice comments.
"I am just tired of people telling me that I have to if not I cannot be a belly dancer."
Well these people that tell you those things r being stupid. I mean you can't go saying that skinny girls can't dance but you can't say that bigger ones can't either! it's so stupid!
Belly Dance is one of the few forms of dance that can be done professionally from both big girls and small ones . You cannot say the same for jazz and ballet maybe but as far as belly dance goes..its good for all one us ! If you need to lose weight do it for your health and to feel lighter in general not to be a belly dancer.
I mean it's not like you are applying for AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL( where the trend is to be skinny ) . If some one would be choosing a model for a fashion belly dance costume...no ,they probably won't choose a big girl, but when it comes to a real show......they will choose who ever they wanna see dancing and that has little to do with whether you are thin, fat , normal etc.
just ignore the bla bla of those people~ do try to lose weight for your health and general well being but do not stop belly dancing !
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance etc.
Dear Belly_dancer,
The difference is that if someone has a show about Egyptian dance, or Turkish dance or Tribal dance, they are still having a show about dance. If someone has a show based on whether or not people are plus size, or male, or thin, or black or Christian, then they are having a show based on something other than dance. There is a huge difference in those two concepts. There is prejudice everywhere and creating more segregation based on elements not related to the situation is not the answer. I can see the reasoning in having a all Tribal show, but an all plus-sized show makes no sense if we are discussing dance.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Belly_dancer,
The difference is that if someone has a show about Egyptian dance, or Turkish dance or Tribal dance, they are still having a show about dance. If someone has a show based on whether or not people are plus size, or male, or thin, or black or Christian, then they are having a show based on something other than dance. There is a huge difference in those two concepts. There is prejudice everywhere and creating more segregation based on elements not related to the situation is not the answer. I can see the reasoning in having a all Tribal show, but an all plus-sized show makes no sense if we are discussing dance.
Regards,
A'isha
lizaj
New member
agreed A'isha I much prefer an all-inclusive show accepting all body types. To exclude slender people is sending out the same message as excluding larger girls.
And the idea of plus size beauty contests..that's saying a plus size girl can't stand along side a slender girl in the beauty stakes and vice versa.
This year a larger girl reached final places of a UK national beauty contest and that's were the larger woman should be..in the mainstream. Weight is only an issue when it's an issue of health. We are just going through an era when ultra-slim was the thing..it was not the case in previous decades nor centuries.
Size 16 woman in 'beauty competition winner' shock!
Aniseteph
New member
Can't leave you (or A'isha) rep, but :clap: :clap: :clap: Especially in something like belly dance, where we know that fantastic dancers come in all shapes and sizes. Any discrimination within a dance community based on size is just bizarre, IMO.
Aisha Azar
New member
What's the difference
.... I want to say that I am amazed that all of the people who came down so heavy on me for daring to suggest that all male shows are not healthy for the dance community are not here to do the same thing to those of us on this thread who state that we do not want to see all plus sized shows and workshops..... Are we just a different kind of bitch if we don't want exclusive plus sized events?
What is the difference? Both groups have been discriminated against in the dance world. Both groups need support and inclusion, both groups want to be recognized as having skill for the dance. Why the uproar in one case but not the other? I'm curious... it does not make sense to me.....perhaps those same people are not reading this thread??
Regards,
A'isha
.... I want to say that I am amazed that all of the people who came down so heavy on me for daring to suggest that all male shows are not healthy for the dance community are not here to do the same thing to those of us on this thread who state that we do not want to see all plus sized shows and workshops..... Are we just a different kind of bitch if we don't want exclusive plus sized events?
What is the difference? Both groups have been discriminated against in the dance world. Both groups need support and inclusion, both groups want to be recognized as having skill for the dance. Why the uproar in one case but not the other? I'm curious... it does not make sense to me.....perhaps those same people are not reading this thread??
Regards,
A'isha
lizaj
New member
I'd much prefer to see a show like ours just held in Liverpool that contains male and female dancers, younger and older dancers, dancers of different body types. Those of ME and N.African blood and those of European origin.There were professional dancers and teachers and students of long standing all doing their best to entertain and all loving the dance.
da Sage
New member
Well, I will step up and say that I am not so supportive of plus-sized shows as I am of plus-sized classes. The idea is that the plus-sized class is an educational tool, and the plus-sized show is a promotional and bonding event. I wish that plus-sized dancers should not feel that they need their own event; I would hope that after a dancer is advanced enough in skill to perform at a showcase, she (he?) would feel a part of the bellydance world, such that a large-dancer show would have little appeal for them. But story after story proves this is not the case, so I cannot come down on dancers who are intrigued by the idea of a show "just for them".
I support the male-only undertakings, and the BOCA undertakings (Bellydancers of Color Association, I believe), because historical and (some) modern attitudes mark a divide between male and female dancers, and "white" and "of color" dancers. I don't think it is right, I think we are moving beyond that, but in the meantime, I can't say "In a perfect world, you shouldn't want this; therefore you shouldn't have it in this imperfect one, either".
I am not going to start a show for only blonds (although it would be easy where I live
), because today blonds do not face overwhelming prejudice in bellydance. But perhaps in some cities in the 60's, such a show would have made sense as a statement. Even today, some troupes encourage their members to dye their hair for a more uniform, middle-eastern look, and I'm sure many solo dancers dye for that reason, too.
ShiroiOji
New member
If you loved that, you should hear me tell off people who say I'm bigboned. "Absolutely not. I'm smallboned and overweight."
If I wasn't a big ol' queer, I would so ask you to marry me!
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance, etc.
Dear Lizaj,
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm talking about! A skill for performing or teaching the dance and a deep love of it is what should drive people to put a show together. Decide what you want to see on your stage and choose who can best do it within your range of dancers available for the production. Gender, color, size, etc. have no bearing on that criteria.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Lizaj,
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's what I'm talking about! A skill for performing or teaching the dance and a deep love of it is what should drive people to put a show together. Decide what you want to see on your stage and choose who can best do it within your range of dancers available for the production. Gender, color, size, etc. have no bearing on that criteria.
Regards,
A'isha
ShiroiOji
New member
So what if it's a male interpretation of the dance, out of curiosity? We all know that males and females don't dance the same because of physical differences, and what if there was a show that spotlit a male interpretation?
I have no real opinion on it; I'm just trying to add more to the pot and all.
da Sage
New member
If I wasn't a big ol' queer, I would so ask you to marry me!
You flatterer! :lol:
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance
Dear daSage,
My members must dye their hair if they are grey haired, but they always have the option to wear wigs instead. the grey hair does not enhance the dance in any way and usually makes the dancer look haggard, especially if the color is at the roots and not elsewhere. My older dancers understand that we need to look our best and wigs or dyed hair looks best. Wigs are an age old tool in the dance and have been worn by most dancers at one time or another in Egypt and other parts of the Middle East.
I should add here that even though I have that rule for my dance company, we do have people with grey hair in our shows sometimes, if they can do a dance that we have in mind for a particular show. In the end, ut is about putting on the best show possible, and that's all about talent.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear daSage,
Any segregationist show is only supporting segregation. I would not want to support any show that separates out an group for any reason and says, only THIS type of person can be in the event.
Segregationist shows add to the issue by recreating it. They do not stop the prejudices; they only add to them. They also create groups who are treated in an elitist way, and this is not based on talent or skill, but on other criteria that should not apply in dance. This is not a perfect world by treating the issue in an imperfect way does not help.
That whole males being treated unequally thing is largely a mythology. Mostly they are treated better than women dancers and this has been going on for at least as long as a I have been dancing. They have an easier time by far than many plus sized or over 40 dancers that I know,.
I am not going to start a show for only blonds (although it would be easy where I live
..... Neither have men. Plus sized dancer and older dancer certainly experience much more prejudice!
My members must dye their hair if they are grey haired, but they always have the option to wear wigs instead. the grey hair does not enhance the dance in any way and usually makes the dancer look haggard, especially if the color is at the roots and not elsewhere. My older dancers understand that we need to look our best and wigs or dyed hair looks best. Wigs are an age old tool in the dance and have been worn by most dancers at one time or another in Egypt and other parts of the Middle East.
I should add here that even though I have that rule for my dance company, we do have people with grey hair in our shows sometimes, if they can do a dance that we have in mind for a particular show. In the end, ut is about putting on the best show possible, and that's all about talent.
Regards,
A'isha
Aisha Azar
New member
Dance, etc.
Dear ShiroiOji,
This dance has a feminine essence that is at the base of its cultural spirit. That, however does not mean that males can not perform belly dance. It also does not have to mean that men must present as women, but only that they keep in mind what the intent of the dance was and is. I agree that physically, men and women often do have to move differently to produce the same movements. ( Many people do not believe this is so, but I think that the shallower pelvis of males makes them definitely move differently than females.) However, in the Middle East, many dancers use different variations of movement from the same movement families than other dancers, so this difference from male to female is not big deal. Movement is the tip of the iceberg and the bigger picture allows for good male dancers tapping into that feminine energy that is inside each person to some degree. Even the native female dancers are for the most part, not overly effeminate, so this is not what I am talking about. It is difficult to understand and many insist that it is not there, but when you have been dancing for awhile, you might begin to understand what I am saying. There are ways in which males and females move simply in expressing their nature and their gender,but this is something more in the spirit of the dance as something outside of ourselves, if we can accept that the dance has its own nature, which it does, just like any other dance form.
I hope this makes sense...
Regards,
A'isha
So what if it's a male interpretation of the dance, out of curiosity? We all know that males and females don't dance the same because of physical differences, and what if there was a show that spotlit a male interpretation?
I have no real opinion on it; I'm just trying to add more to the pot and all.
Dear ShiroiOji,
This dance has a feminine essence that is at the base of its cultural spirit. That, however does not mean that males can not perform belly dance. It also does not have to mean that men must present as women, but only that they keep in mind what the intent of the dance was and is. I agree that physically, men and women often do have to move differently to produce the same movements. ( Many people do not believe this is so, but I think that the shallower pelvis of males makes them definitely move differently than females.) However, in the Middle East, many dancers use different variations of movement from the same movement families than other dancers, so this difference from male to female is not big deal. Movement is the tip of the iceberg and the bigger picture allows for good male dancers tapping into that feminine energy that is inside each person to some degree. Even the native female dancers are for the most part, not overly effeminate, so this is not what I am talking about. It is difficult to understand and many insist that it is not there, but when you have been dancing for awhile, you might begin to understand what I am saying. There are ways in which males and females move simply in expressing their nature and their gender,but this is something more in the spirit of the dance as something outside of ourselves, if we can accept that the dance has its own nature, which it does, just like any other dance form.
I hope this makes sense...
Regards,
A'isha
Caroline_afifi
New member
I have not followed this thread for some time. I just checked back and see an interesting discussion has broken out.
Seperatism??
OK in my city we have a dance festival for the over 50's funded by North West Arts and we have Youth dance festivals and we have cultural festivals etc.
However... a show of larger women? I would say no to be honest.
I would not try to talk anyone out of doing it if that is what they really wanted, but dividing on an issue of body image is a strange path to take. The BDSS only have slim women so a show of larger women will look like a comedy version whether you like it or not, because that is how people will view it (Vicar of Dibley in a Tutu, can anyone get it on youtube?).
Drawing attention to ones body shape in this way is not a positive move.
I think there is already a secret discrimination of bigger women in this dance.
I dont think it will threaten anything by doing so but it will look like you are trying to prove something.
Seperatism??
OK in my city we have a dance festival for the over 50's funded by North West Arts and we have Youth dance festivals and we have cultural festivals etc.
However... a show of larger women? I would say no to be honest.
I would not try to talk anyone out of doing it if that is what they really wanted, but dividing on an issue of body image is a strange path to take. The BDSS only have slim women so a show of larger women will look like a comedy version whether you like it or not, because that is how people will view it (Vicar of Dibley in a Tutu, can anyone get it on youtube?).
Drawing attention to ones body shape in this way is not a positive move.
I think there is already a secret discrimination of bigger women in this dance.
I dont think it will threaten anything by doing so but it will look like you are trying to prove something.