Racism, prejudice and terminology (Bad News: EGYPT spinoff)

Tarik Sultan

New member
Actually Tarik, as an outsider I'm often surprised at people from the US who identify as black and I look and say what?? But with you, yeah, I guess you'll pass - your skin does look dusky and I'll take your word that you aren't Greek or something. :D

All joking aside, yes our racial classification system is ridiculous and confuses the hell out of people in other parts of the world. In the States, if you have even one African ancestor, you are considered 100% black. That means You could look like a Scandinavian, but if your great great grand mother was a black woman, so are you. HOWEVER, if you are born in the Middle East, then no matter how black you are, you're classified white. There was a very controversial case of a Nubian man named Mustafa Henefy who sued because he was forced to categorize himself as white or face penalties. It seems he had applied for a job and, being a Nubian checked the box BLACK that asked for race. After he got the job, he was contacted by personnel that he misrepresented himself and was now facing penalties. Question I always ask: Why do we need such categories in the first place? And who is making the rules of what is what?:protest:
 

missanime

New member
All joking aside, yes our racial classification system is ridiculous and confuses the hell out of people in other parts of the world. In the States, if you have even one African ancestor, you are considered 100% black. That means You could look like a Scandinavian, but if your great great grand mother was a black woman, so are you. HOWEVER, if you are born in the Middle East, then no matter how black you are, you're classified white. There was a very controversial case of a Nubian man named Mustafa Henefy who sued because he was forced to categorize himself as white or face penalties. It seems he had applied for a job and, being a Nubian checked the box BLACK that asked for race. After he got the job, he was contacted by personnel that he misrepresented himself and was now facing penalties. Question I always ask: Why do we need such categories in the first place? And who is making the rules of what is what?:protest:

personally....i think those are the jobs and companies that believe in that bs, that's who! i would NEVER consider working for such a company that blatantly (and worse, OPENLY) practice such prejudice - i want to be PROUD of the company i work for.

but....! in general americans are *very* hooked on such empty (and very often, demeaning as well as irrelevant) labelling, and panic when they can't put one on. (i've done my own little 'experiments', and found this utterly amazing at how uncomfortable they are when they can't). my personal motto or philosophy of them: too damn bad if you can't. not my problem nor is it even relevant to the issue at hand.

:)
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
personally....i think those are the jobs and companies that believe in that bs, that's who! i would NEVER consider working for such a company that blatantly (and worse, OPENLY) practice such prejudice - i want to be PROUD of the company i work for.

but....! in general americans are *very* hooked on such empty (and very often, demeaning as well as irrelevant) labelling, and panic when they can't put one on. (i've done my own little 'experiments', and found this utterly amazing at how uncomfortable they are when they can't). my personal motto or philosophy of them: too damn bad if you can't. not my problem nor is it even relevant to the issue at hand.

:)

Its true. People freak the ***k out when they don't know what box to put you in. You can just see it in their faces and how they react to you and the anxiety in their voices. I get asked that question at least 3 times a week. I think I'm going to start telling people I'm a Lesbian and see how they react. Sooo, what are you? I'm Lesbian. That aught to be like 100 points on the mind f*** meeter. :lol:
 

Zorba

"The Veiled Male"
People freak the ***k out when they don't know what box to put you in. You can just see it in their faces and how they react to you and the anxiety in their voices.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Boy, if this isn't the truth! Since no-one ever knows what box to put ME in, I see a LOT of this! :lol:
 

Pirika Repun

New member
I think I'm going to start telling people I'm a Lesbian and see how they react. Sooo, what are you? I'm Lesbian. That aught to be like 100 points on the mind f*** meeter.

:lol: Then I'll say "I'm GAY"!! Many people think about I'm other than my own race or ethnicity, so if people ask me, I'll say "I'm GAY" that like you said you are lesbian. :lol: Thanks for the good idea! :clap:
 

masrawy

New member
I love you man

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Boy, if this isn't the truth! Since no-one ever knows what box to put ME in, I see a LOT of this! :lol:

Put you in a box... what a shame, I will put you on a pedestal in the middle of a park, central park of course ...
Ooh ya ... you may have some problems than with the birds ... :think:

I love you man :whistle: :whistle:
 
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missanime

New member
Its true. People freak the ***k out when they don't know what box to put you in. You can just see it in their faces and how they react to you and the anxiety in their voices. I get asked that question at least 3 times a week. I think I'm going to start telling people I'm a Lesbian and see how they react. Sooo, what are you? I'm Lesbian. That aught to be like 100 points on the mind f*** meeter. :lol:

actually, no it wouldn't. you just put a label on yourself by saying that.

it's why i refuse to do so at all, and the ONLY times i'd ever is if it has *direct* relevance, EG an actress looking to play a part that calls for a physical attribute.

:)
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
actually, no it wouldn't. you just put a label on yourself by saying that.

it's why i refuse to do so at all, and the ONLY times i'd ever is if it has *direct* relevance, EG an actress looking to play a part that calls for a physical attribute.

:)

Aww. But where's the fun in that? Surely god has put silly people on this earth for our amusement. Wouldn't it be a sign of ingratitude?
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
:lol: Then I'll say "I'm GAY"!! Many people think about I'm other than my own race or ethnicity, so if people ask me, I'll say "I'm GAY" that like you said you are lesbian. :lol: Thanks for the good idea! :clap:

GAy man trapped in a woman's body would raise more eyebrows!:lol:
 

missanime

New member
Aww. But where's the fun in that? Surely god has put silly people on this earth for our amusement. Wouldn't it be a sign of ingratitude?

by giving *yourself* a label, you're simply doing exactly what *they* do. you haven't amused them. you've aligned yourself w/them ;)

if you're looking to actually AMUSE them, then simply give them no answer or one that does not give in to their prejudice crap. trust me - their sudden silence and complete bewilderment is all you need for *your* amusement :D
 
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It seems he had applied for a job and, being a Nubian checked the box BLACK that asked for race.
Are you serious? Do American employers ask what race you are when you apply for a job?

That would be unthinkable here in Australia. It's against the law for one thing, and for another it wouldn't occur to anyone.

I'm not saying there aren't racists here, but my friend Kenny (who's black and from Chicago) tells me that's why he chose to migrate here - because when he visited Australia, it was the first time he felt that his race was completely irrelevant to who he mixed with and what he did.
 

Marya

Member
Are you serious? Do American employers ask what race you are when you apply for a job?

That would be unthinkable here in Australia. It's against the law for one thing, and for another it wouldn't occur to anyone.

I'm not saying there aren't racists here, but my friend Kenny (who's black and from Chicago) tells me that's why he chose to migrate here - because when he visited Australia, it was the first time he felt that his race was completely irrelevant to who he mixed with and what he did.

Not all employers will ask the question of what race. However, it gets complicated. If it is a government agency struggling to create, track, or maintain diversity, they ask that question not always on the job application but later on forms the new employee has to fill out, because somewhere up the chain of command someone will want a report. How can you prove you are hiring diversely if you don't keep records? Some large corporations do the same thing.

Government agencies and any organization that receives government funding must proclaim that they are an Equal Opportunity Employer. How can you prove that equal opportunity is actually given if you don't track gender and race? I worked for a government agency that had to track gender and race of the board of directors. It gets embarrassing to have to ask people what their race is, but if we didn't track it our funding would be taken away.

There are alot of mixed race people in America but only recently has that box been added to forms, before you had to choose only one.

It is definitely controversial.

Marya
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Race

Are you serious? Do American employers ask what race you are when you apply for a job?

That would be unthinkable here in Australia. It's against the law for one thing, and for another it wouldn't occur to anyone.

I'm not saying there aren't racists here, but my friend Kenny (who's black and from Chicago) tells me that's why he chose to migrate here - because when he visited Australia, it was the first time he felt that his race was completely irrelevant to who he mixed with and what he did.



Dear Oz,
I hear that it is not so irrelevant for the Aboriginals...... Every country has their racial issues.
Regards,
A'isha
 

Aisha Azar

New member
Race, etc.

I am behind on this thread also!

Reen, I remember feeling disappointed as well learning about the dance/prostitution link when I was a beginner - that is certainly not how it is spoon-fed to us in the West, and we are taught to disassociate ourselves as much as possible from stripping or other questionable activities despite the fact that we (some of us) are (artful though it may be) dancing around scantily clad, in the eyes of the GP. We are taught bellydance is sacred, bellydance was originally danced only among women, bellydance is the dance of the mother goddess or what have you bla bla bla. Once I learned about the reality of the situation, it all made rather a lot of sense - and I just thought of COURSE that is the way it (generally) works in the MiddleEast/world with bellydancers/entertainers. I felt pretty naive as well, having been up on that high horse.

This is one of the reasons why I don't really hold with dancers who are extremely uptight about the associations of bellydance with stripping - no, bellydance is not stripping and I would be the first to say so, but based on the reality of life in the places where it originates, of course that is what a lot of the public opinion will be about it until hell freezes over and I don't think we privileged few have the right to look down our noses at those who don't have the luxury of making the choices we get to make. And that goes both for dancers in the ME as well as here in the West.

As for the race issue hijack - I was horrified after moving to the UK at the number of government forms that I have had to fill out (for immigration/medical/dental/whatever) that ask you specifically what race you are. That just would not happen in Canada where I'm from. Here they claim it's for medical reasons or whatever, but seeing how incompetent the medical system can be (don't get me wrong, I am a huge public health care supporter but of course when underfunded/mismanaged it has its drawbacks) there is no possible way they are tailoring my diagnoses to my race. And it just happens on form after form after form - initially (freaked out), I would tick the 'other' box and dutifully wrote in my ethnic mix (since you need to specify), but now I just hand them in blank. Especially now that the UK gov't has decided that it will require foreigners to carry special ID cards...



Dear Maylynn,
My French Canadian relatives who live in Quebec Province could tell you a story or two about prejudice. So could the Lummi Indians who live in the western part of Canada.... No place is free from it.
And, actually, there are certain diseases that happen that are in a generalized way, specific to race and ethnic groups. There is medical issue that is found, for example among people of the Meditteranean (I can't spell this A.M.) and there is Sickle Cell Anemia, certain Semitic disorders, etc, so in the name of health, I CAN see asking about race. My grandson is a mixture of all three main racial groups, and I would prefer that to be known in his medical records, just I I think it is important that in my own records, it states that I am part American Indian, I certainly do not look it, but there are some things that might relate medically to that.
Regards,
A'isha
Regards,
A'isha
 

maylynn

New member
Dear A'isha,

I certainly did not say that Canada was free from prejudice. Both my parents are immigrants and only one person in my family is white - I understand that extremely well. I was simply saying that you do not find questions about race on so many forms in the True North!

I also know about diseases that are specific to ethnic groups. Just this year the medical community in the US began speaking about those issues more openly, after the release of a heart medication in the US that is specifically for people of African descent. Interestingly, in clinical trials for medications and for determining doses etc., the clinical standard is a white male. Not only should medical diagnoses take into account ethnic background, but even something so simple as gender - which in the vast majority of cases, it currently doesn't (obvious exceptions apply).

What I'm saying is that there are an awful lot of forms that ask me my race in the UK, and I don't see this ever reflected in a positive way - hence my point about the ID cards for foreigners.

Best regards,
Maylynn

Dear Maylynn,
My French Canadian relatives who live in Quebec Province could tell you a story or two about prejudice. So could the Lummi Indians who live in the western part of Canada.... No place is free from it.
And, actually, there are certain diseases that happen that are in a generalized way, specific to race and ethnic groups. There is medical issue that is found, for example among people of the Meditteranean (I can't spell this A.M.) and there is Sickle Cell Anemia, certain Semitic disorders, etc, so in the name of health, I CAN see asking about race. My grandson is a mixture of all three main racial groups, and I would prefer that to be known in his medical records, just I I think it is important that in my own records, it states that I am part American Indian, I certainly do not look it, but there are some things that might relate medically to that.
Regards,
A'isha
Regards,
A'isha
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
Are you serious? Do American employers ask what race you are when you apply for a job?

That would be unthinkable here in Australia. It's against the law for one thing, and for another it wouldn't occur to anyone.

I'm not saying there aren't racists here, but my friend Kenny (who's black and from Chicago) tells me that's why he chose to migrate here - because when he visited Australia, it was the first time he felt that his race was completely irrelevant to who he mixed with and what he did.

Oh yeah! Census forms, collage applications, jobs applications, standardized tests in school, all kinds of things.

I remember seeing forms where its stated that answering the question is "optional" but if you don't choose a category, one will be chosen for you based on the observation and opinion of the interviewer. Can you imagine that?!
 

Aniseteph

New member
As for the race issue hijack - I was horrified after moving to the UK at the number of government forms that I have had to fill out (for immigration/medical/dental/whatever) that ask you specifically what race you are.

The reason for the race questions is mostly not medical (very very tenuous excuse IMHO. I work in an NHS lab where just occasionally that info might be helpful, and does anyone ever tell us? Nope.). I expect it is mostly to comply with Equality and Diversity policies so they have stats about whether they are discriminating against anyone.

And they want us all to have ID cards (and pay for the privilege). Some berk will then put the entire database unencrypted on a laptop and leave it on the bus.
 

Dev

New member
Dear Oz,
I hear that it is not so irrelevant for the Aboriginals...... Every country has their racial issues.
Regards,
A'isha

I apologise for going a bit off topic here.
Dear Aisha,
It is true Aboriginal people went through the hell period when “white “ people used to shoot them. In Tasmania they killed every one of them except one lady, Like killing the Dingo or the bush Turkey. But the last 30 years was a different story, The Government and Private bodies are doing their best to push them financially and setting School and colleges in remote areas. Discrimination im sure still happens and widespread, but I will tell you the truth, In Australia if you are an aboriginal you can be far better off and have a good start in life than other Australian races. We even have a joke, if you are a minority race, gay and have one leg you can count yourself as a prime minister to be.

Going back to Belly dance Oz reply to Tariks post , I think she means in Australia we don’t fill in a form to say we are black or white, as a person you are more relevant to Australia than your race.

Regards
 

Tarik Sultan

New member
The reason for the race questions is mostly not medical (very very tenuous excuse IMHO. I work in an NHS lab where just occasionally that info might be helpful, and does anyone ever tell us? Nope.). I expect it is mostly to comply with Equality and Diversity policies so they have stats about whether they are discriminating against anyone.

And they want us all to have ID cards (and pay for the privilege). Some berk will then put the entire database unencrypted on a laptop and leave it on the bus.

To help us... riiiight. Well I been waiting to see the help materialize. I generally reject labeling myself as black, except when I'm being a smart ass or putting someone in their. Some how kiss my multiracial American of Jamaican origin behind just doesn't have the same ring as KISS MY BLACK ASS!:shok: I guess the classification is good for some things after all!:lol:
 
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