Racism, prejudice and terminology (Bad News: EGYPT spinoff)

[Samira bint Aya]

NHS and ethnic background

I can say, from personal experience, that the NHS can be very incompetent in utilizing the ethnic background information for diagnostic purposes.

Also, they tended to lump all the familial Mediterranean diseases together into one big vague diagnostic group, which they clearly are not.

That was in the early nineties, perhaps they have improved since then…

On the form you have to fill in when you join, they had something like 30 categories for race (Black-Caribbean, Black-West African, Black-…) of which only one was for white. I remember the “white” category also carried the qualification “including Greeks and Turks”! :shok:

Sorry for the rant, the NHS is not all bad. I will be the first to admit that the system here in Greece is worst.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Race

And if we always look for the negative reasons something might be done, then we will always see those negative reasons. When my Japanese doctor asked questions about race on his forms that I had to fill out, I did not suspect racism. Instead I looked at all the reasons why he might need that information. When I am asked to select a racial group on a public form, I am willing to assume that the information is for a good reason instead of a bad one, until it is proven otherwise.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I can say, from personal experience, that the NHS can be very incompetent in utilizing the ethnic background information for diagnostic purposes.

Also, they tended to lump all the familial Mediterranean diseases together into one big vague diagnostic group, which they clearly are not.

That was in the early nineties, perhaps they have improved since then…

On the form you have to fill in when you join, they had something like 30 categories for race (Black-Caribbean, Black-West African, Black-…) of which only one was for white. I remember the “white” category also carried the qualification “including Greeks and Turks”! :shok:

Sorry for the rant, the NHS is not all bad. I will be the first to admit that the system here in Greece is worst.

Just reminds me of another reason why I think its crap. Racial classifications are arbitrary and not based on any real science. For example I'm considered black, when in reality I'm African, European and East Indian, yet they forget the other two components in my genetic background and only focus on the African. Most so called BLACK people outside of Africa are in fact anywhere from 30 to 90% Europeans and that's not counting those with Native American background. In the US the one drop theory is the rule. One drop of African means we're supposed to forget about everything else and pretend we are only African. So if this were for some health reason or benefit to us, shouldn't they want to know all of our background? If that were indeed the case they would and maybe they would stop being shocked when they find out that my family suffers from a Mediterranean strain of anemia that is very difficult to treat, instead of assuming that they should be looking for "Black" diseases.

Some people in here may think there's nothing to it, but I tell you what. If they woke up tomorrow with a higher percentage of melanin content and a significantly curlier texture to their hair, they would see the world through a much different lens. Then they'd be writing their own version of "BLACK LIKE ME".

 

[lizaj]

Late to the thread..been off to a foreign country.Wales..for a few days. bi lingual signs and lots of sheep.

I originally resisted in filling in the ethnic origin bits of forms when they first came in but often they have been put to positive use here in the UK: demographic reasons, health issues, positive inititives. I don't believe there was anything sinister in the questions although of course the data can be used in such a way. However I used to get awkward and put down celtic in the "other" space!
My cousin's children got confused by US forms when they settled there.
They ticked the African box..."ah you can't be African you're white.."
"but we were born in Africa so why not?"
Confused immigration officials all around

 

[lizaj]

...and again..
was showing family photos at work and a colleague commented..
"Where's your cousin's(not the previous example) partner from?"
Me confused..."Who? Oh M****(he's black)..London ."
"Oh right"
"My (white) cousin's the foreigner..she's from Oz..He's the Brit".
and another colleague gets asked similar questions.."How come your daughter met her husband in France? "
"He's French...a Parisian " (just happens to be black!)
It's small world.

 

[Kashmir]

Just reminds me of another reason why I think its crap. Racial classifications are arbitrary and not based on any real science. For example I'm considered black, when in reality I'm African, European and East Indian, yet they forget the other two components in my genetic background and only focus on the African. Most so called BLACK people outside of Africa are in fact anywhere from 30 to 90% Europeans and that's not counting those with Native American background. In the US the one drop theory is the rule. One drop of African means we're supposed to forget about everything else and pretend we are only African. So if this were for some health reason or benefit to us, shouldn't they want to know all of our background? If that were indeed the case they would and maybe they would stop being shocked when they find out that my family suffers from a Mediterranean strain of anemia that is very difficult to treat, instead of assuming that they should be looking for "Black" diseases.

Some people in here may think there's nothing to it, but I tell you what. If they woke up tomorrow with a higher percentage of melanin content and a significantly curlier texture to their hair, they would see the world through a much different lens. Then they'd be writing their own version of "BLACK LIKE ME".

Hit me like a sledge hammer on my first secondment to Philli. As an educated white, lift wing liberal I had all the theory about civil rights etc. But somehow I thought the "problems" were those uneducated rednecks. I was working with nice educated professional men. It suddenly struck me that some didn't really consider blacks fully human. Nothing overt, but very creepy.

And you're right - it's the African bit. No problem with an (Asian) Indian working with them - who was darker than many people I've heard claim black blood.

 

[da Sage]

All joking aside, yes our racial classification system is ridiculous and confuses the hell out of people in other parts of the world.
<snip>
Question I always ask: Why do we need such categories in the first place? And who is making the rules of what is what?rotest:

The racial classification system in the US is ridiculous and confusing, agreed.

Answer: the reason that government agencies ask for racial category is so they can see if all populations are being served fairly. I know that when I was working for a government agency, I had to ask people what racial group they identified as - and they could only choose one. If they chose more than one, or if they refused to choose (which was OK), they would be assigned a racial category by the people in the back room. They said the (ancient) computer system would not accept an enrollee without a racial category, and more importantly, they needed a racial category to receive per-person funding for their programs. It sounds nuts, but part of it is to "fix" racial discrimination by monitoring the different categories in government systems.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

The racial classification system in the US is ridiculous and confusing, agreed.

Answer: the reason that government agencies ask for racial category is so they can see if all populations are being served fairly. I know that when I was working for a government agency, I had to ask people what racial group they identified as - and they could only choose one. If they chose more than one, or if they refused to choose (which was OK), they would be assigned a racial category by the people in the back room. They said the (ancient) computer system would not accept an enrollee without a racial category, and more importantly, they needed a racial category to receive per-person funding for their programs. It sounds nuts, but part of it is to "fix" racial discrimination by monitoring the different categories in government systems.

That's what they say. But when I had students who were illiterate through no fault of their own and went to try to enroll them in a literacy program, I was told none existed, why, cut backs, not enough money. But somehow, our government had billions of dollars to go drop bombs on Iraq! I lived in the Bronx, and there wasn't any money for health care, schools, affordable housing. Three years after Katrina and still people in the mostly black areas of the 9th ward still living in shambles, so what help? Cure racism? How? In the United States a house in a Black, mixed or minority neighborhood is still worth significantly LESS than the exact same house in an ALL WHITE neighborhood, so where is the help? Its still bullshit designed to keep people separate and play them off one against the other.

 

[lizaj]

That's what they say. But when I had students who were illiterate through no fault of their own and went to try to enroll them in a literacy program, I was told none existed, why, cut backs, not enough money. But somehow, our government had billions of dollars to go drop bombs on Iraq! I lived in the Bronx, and there wasn't any money for health care, schools, affordable housing. Three years after Katrina and still people in the mostly black areas of the 9th ward still living in shambles, so what help? Cure racism? How? In the United States a house in a Black, mixed or minority neighborhood is still worth significantly LESS than the exact same house in an ALL WHITE neighborhood, so where is the help? Its still bullshit designed to keep people separate and play them off one against the other.

Isn't it just so...we have a struggling health service, social workers out stretched, teachers at their wits' ends and adult education stripped of its' subsidies but we have the money for tearing around Iraq and Afghanistan and we can fund the Olympic games into the bargain...

 

[Marya]

Way off topic

That's what they say. But when I had students who were illiterate through no fault of their own and went to try to enroll them in a literacy program, I was told none existed, why, cut backs, not enough money. But somehow, our government had billions of dollars to go drop bombs on Iraq! I lived in the Bronx, and there wasn't any money for health care, schools, affordable housing. Three years after Katrina and still people in the mostly black areas of the 9th ward still living in shambles, so what help? Cure racism? How? In the United States a house in a Black, mixed or minority neighborhood is still worth significantly LESS than the exact same house in an ALL WHITE neighborhood, so where is the help? Its still bullshit designed to keep people separate and play them off one against the other.

Tarik,

What do you think of the US Census projection that White Caucasians will be in the minority within 20 years?

There are communities near me where Hispanics are now the majority, they (the new citizens) are revolutionizing the economy, buying up farms and providing much needed services to the community. I don't know how the oldtimers feel about it but I really, really like being able to buy plantanos and yucca at the grocery store.

Marya

 

[Pirika Repun]

Tarik,

What do you think of the US Census projection that White Caucasians will be in the minority within 20 years?

There are communities near me where Hispanics are now the majority, they (the new citizens) are revolutionizing the economy, buying up farms and providing much needed services to the community. I don't know how the oldtimers feel about it but I really, really like being able to buy plantanos and yucca at the grocery store.

Marya

Marya

I am foreign born US minority citizen, and I can tell you that even 20 years from now still White people are majority in the US.

Do you know why? Because US immigration and naturalization do not want to NON European (non white) immigrants in the US, and every year it is getting hard to get legal visa (not even Green Card) to enter the US. Especially after the 911 incidents, visa situation is getting harder for the immigrants.

Like 150 to maybe 50 years ago, there were mostly European immigrants are the main immigrants in the US, but now more Non Europeans come to the US, especially from Asia, Caribbean Islands, and Central to South America. US Immigration DO NOT like minority people grow in the US, so what they do is make more restriction for immigration law and control immigration from non European countries. The same thing for become US citizen. They just raise the application fee about $100 more than previous fee, and change test form for harder than before.

US born citizens, especially majority people afraid those immigrants, especially minorities take over the US and take advantage of the US system. However, we immigrants are still struggled. If you don’t have working visa or Green Card it is hard to find job legally and many times work low wages. Even if you can work legally, still many restrictions for the job hunting and other things US born citizen never think of.

I have a lot to say about immigration and racial situation in the US, but I stop for now. I can tell you one thing, if you are US born majority citizen, you never understand minority immigrants’ situation, and don’t worry we never replace majority in the US, because government will control especially minoroty immigrants.

 

[Marya]

Marya

I am foreign born US minority citizen, and I can tell you that even 20 years from now still White people are majority in the US.

Do you know why? Because US immigration and naturalization do not want to NON European (non white) immigrants in the US, and every year it is getting hard to get legal visa (not even Green Card) to enter the US. Especially after the 911 incidents, visa situation is getting harder for the immigrants.

Like 150 to maybe 50 years ago, there were mostly European immigrants are the main immigrants in the US, but now more Non Europeans come to the US, especially from Asia, Caribbean Islands, and Central to South America. US Immigration DO NOT like minority people grow in the US, so what they do is make more restriction for immigration law and control immigration from non European countries. The same thing for become US citizen. They just raise the application fee about $100 more than previous fee, and change test form for harder than before.

US born citizens, especially majority people afraid those immigrants, especially minorities take over the US and take advantage of the US system. However, we immigrants are still struggled. If you don’t have working visa or Green Card it is hard to find job legally and many times work low wages. Even if you can work legally, still many restrictions for the job hunting and other things US born citizen never think of.

I have a lot to say about immigration and racial situation in the US, but I stop for now. I can tell you one thing, if you are US born majority citizen, you never understand minority immigrants’ situation, and don’t worry we never replace majority in the US, because government will control especially minoroty immigrants.

Pirika,

I accept what you say, however, I think the estimates were based on non-white births in the US, not immigration.

I also comprehend what you say about never understanding the situation of minorities because my personal experience is so different from yours, that doesn't mean I will stop trying to understand.

Marya

 

[gypsy8522]

The racial classification system in the US is ridiculous and confusing, agreed.

Answer: the reason that government agencies ask for racial category is so they can see if all populations are being served fairly. I know that when I was working for a government agency, I had to ask people what racial group they identified as - and they could only choose one. If they chose more than one, or if they refused to choose (which was OK), they would be assigned a racial category by the people in the back room. They said the (ancient) computer system would not accept an enrollee without a racial category, and more importantly, they needed a racial category to receive per-person funding for their programs. It sounds nuts, but part of it is to "fix" racial discrimination by monitoring the different categories in government systems.

So, the reason behind racial profiling is to make sure that all populations are being served fairly. Hmmm... that doesn't make sense. If racial fairness is a real moral principle and everyone was treated as a human being rather than a race or skin color, there wouldn't be any need to resort to such a measure to begin with.

 

[Pirika Repun]

So, the reason behind racial profiling is to make sure that all populations are being served fairly. Hmmm... that doesn't make sense. If racial fairness is a real moral principle and everyone was treated as a human being rather than a race or skin color, there wouldn't be any need to resort to such a measure to begin with.

Exactly! And the US would never have affirmative action as well!

 

[Marya]

So, the reason behind racial profiling is to make sure that all populations are being served fairly. Hmmm... that doesn't make sense. If racial fairness is a real moral principle and everyone was treated as a human being rather than a race or skin color, there wouldn't be any need to resort to such a measure to begin with.

Gypsy,

of course it doesn't make sense and of course you are right, the whole morass was an attempt to encourage, then legally require compliance with fairness. Humans tend to have categories of "them and us" stuck in their brains and changing the definition of who "us" includes is tough.

And as one friend of mine says "change happens one funeral at a time" meaning new, younger generations may have a better, fairer definition of "us" than the old.

We can only hope.

Marya

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Tarik,

What do you think of the US Census projection that White Caucasians will be in the minority within 20 years?

There are communities near me where Hispanics are now the majority, they (the new citizens) are revolutionizing the economy, buying up farms and providing much needed services to the community. I don't know how the oldtimers feel about it but I really, really like being able to buy plantanos and yucca at the grocery store.

Marya

I'm always skeptical of statistics. I guess time will tell. I really don't see how it will change things as long as the status quo remains the same. I think its divisive diversionary tactics. What we all need to be focusing on are the social and economic rights of all of us across the board. Then it won't matter what color one is or isn't and we could finally become a real country.

 

[khanjar]

Colour of a person is totally irrelevant, it is the person that matters most. I am invited to a wedding, my cousin who is half Sri Lankan, she is marrying a Chinese person of Irish descent, the guest list includes Japanese, Indian, Sri Lankan, Irish, Nigerian and American, just people, different races from different parts of the world, but just people. I would like to see a time when colour is totally ignored.

What may come to be by a census or whatever, may come to be, but I feel forecasts by census only serve to irritate the present. What comes, let it come and by peaceful means, the silent invasion, the right way.

Similar census suggests Islam will take over the western world, again let nature take it's course, people do have the right to choose and if that way is for them, then good luck.

Through conversation and understanding, we as the human race may evolve faster in this present age when internet brings the world together.

p.s. I think coloured women of any race are very attractive, it seems a thing with my family.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Colour of a person is totally irrelevant, it is the person that matters most. I am invited to a wedding, my cousin who is half Sri Lankan, she is marrying a Chinese person of Irish descent, the guest list includes Japanese, Indian, Sri Lankan, Irish, Nigerian and American, just people, different races from different parts of the world, but just people. I would like to see a time when colour is totally ignored.

What may come to be by a census or whatever, may come to be, but I feel forecasts by census only serve to irritate the present. What comes, let it come and by peaceful means, the silent invasion, the right way.

Similar census suggests Islam will take over the western world, again let nature take it's course, people do have the right to choose and if that way is for them, then good luck.

Through conversation and understanding, we as the human race may evolve faster in this present age when internet brings the world together.

p.s. I think coloured women of any race are very attractive, it seems a thing with my family.

I think to stamp out racism is of course the perfect utopia, however, cultural identity and characteristics are so importaant to some people that they will go to great lengths to preserve it.

Some of the issues connected to what you are saying race is not purely racism, race and colour of skin is often extremely relevant.

In the UK we have many different cultural groups and a huge 'issue' with 'citizenship'.
Many cultural groups stay within their own group within their own area and mix only with their own cultural group in order to preserve their cultural identity. It is not always a fear of racism. The groups in an area close to me do not even mix with each other.

from the goverment perspective, this lack of intergration causes big problems.
The problems do not just affect the government but the people too. It has implications for health, safety and future happiness and well being.
It is not always about sinister motivations. I was a trustee for the Liverpool Arab Club for 10 years. We researched the issues and applied for funding and got lots of money. Without people ticking boxes, this would not have been possible. I find there is a flip side to everything.

Two years ago I was a teacher for younf refugee's from all over the world. They all say within their own group (or closest to it), the mini world politics that went on was unbelievable.

Even long established groups like the Jewish community (with is rapidly diminishing) has a policy of not mixing with gentiles and does not allow them into their youth centre and community centre.

 

[SidraK]

Colour of a person is totally irrelevant, it is the person that matters most. I am invited to a wedding, my cousin who is half Sri Lankan, she is marrying a Chinese person of Irish descent, the guest list includes Japanese, Indian, Sri Lankan, Irish, Nigerian and American, just people, different races from different parts of the world, but just people. I would like to see a time when colour is totally ignored.

I would like to see a time when every individual's experience of race and cultural heritage and the way in which it has shaped their lives and the lives of their loved ones of any background is honoured and respected as part of what has made them into the wonderful human being that they are. Ignoring race and cultural difference in the name of tolerance is to ignore part of what makes us human and to deny the experience of our fellows.

ETA: I won't dwell on the fetishizing nature of the ps. attached to that post, but the use of the word "coloured" is pretty offensive in a North American context. Is it really still in common use in the UK?

 

[khanjar]

but the use of the word "coloured" is pretty offensive in a North American context. Is it really still in common use in the UK?

My apologies if it was seen as offensive, that was not my intention. As to is the word used in the UK, yes, to a certain extent, all depending on the age group and location, what was learned in a lifetime is hard to shed whence a new description of anything comes along. The truth is, many in my age group are somewhat uncomfortable with descriptions of the various races of people and very much fear offending, as we just don't know what is the current unoffensive description is. I have grown up with the term coloured as a polite word for what the elder generation used, they not meaning to be offensive, but it is what they learned in their lifetime, and so on. With each generation words change, but now, what is the correct term, we hear so much, it is confusing, if we use one word, we find it is ok for some, but not ok for others. People in Britain are largely a polite race, we do not wish to offend anyone, but we do get confused over what is the latest universal politically correct descriptive word for a person of another race.

I describe myself if asked as white, whether that is the correct pc word, I do not know, but it is what I have always known to be the descriptive word for my race. Of course I am not white, but a paler skin colour to those in other countries, that because of my location and ancestry.I f I lived in a hotter climate, my skin pigmentation will change to protect from the sun, could I then still be called white.

You see what words can do, they can cause offence where none is meant and all that because of often harmless misunderstanding.

But with nature the way it is, maybe we will all be the same colour one day. If that is possible, every one of us, colour or race is just as important as the next, these obscene scientific labels and the trouble they have caused will be resigned to the past.