Racism, prejudice and terminology (Bad News: EGYPT spinoff)

[SidraK]

Khanjar, we all make mistakes. I was simply surprised that a term that fell out of fashion in the US with the civil rights movement some 40 years ago was still in common use in the UK. I am relatively well exposed to what British TV hits the Canadian airwaves as well as popular literature and have not seen it used outside of a racially fraught context.

If you're interested in looking at some more detailed progressive racial analysis in the blogosphere, I'm very fond of Racialicious - the intersection of race and pop culture and www. sepiamutiny.com. And Muslimah Media Watch: Looking at Muslim women in the media and in pop culture for a discussion of the intersection of race,gender and religion. I apologize that I can't offer any reading outside of American-based blogs, but you may find something interesting in the links offered on any of these sites that could have more relevance.

 

[jenc]

Re: the use of coloured. some years ago I was in conversation with a sociology lecturer who said that a student used the term "women of colour" in an essay. The lecturer was going to mark it down and take the student to task until she realised who it was, and that the student herself fitted the description.
I think this is OK and is similar to the use of people with a disability instead of disabled people in that their self is more than their disability.

I don't konw about the US, but in the UK, originally we were told that everyone non-white was black. However we have a lot of Asians from the Indian sub-continent (more than Africans and Afro-Carribeans). The use of the term black makes them invisible. similar situaton in a different way to Tariq's friend the black Egyptian being described as white in US.
People of colour alllows also for the experience of people of mixed race, who may be accepted with either (any) group of their heritage.

PS to Sidra: Is it fetishising to say that I find blonde men attractive.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

My apologies if it was seen as offensive, that was not my intention. As to is the word used in the UK, yes, to a certain extent, all depending on the age group and location, what was learned in a lifetime is hard to shed whence a new description of anything comes along. The truth is, many in my age group are somewhat uncomfortable with descriptions of the various races of people and very much fear offending, as we just don't know what is the current unoffensive description is. I have grown up with the term coloured as a polite word for what the elder generation used, they not meaning to be offensive, but it is what they learned in their lifetime, and so on. With each generation words change, but now, what is the correct term, we hear so much, it is confusing, if we use one word, we find it is ok for some, but not ok for others. People in Britain are largely a polite race, we do not wish to offend anyone, but we do get confused over what is the latest universal politically correct descriptive word for a person of another race.

I describe myself if asked as white, whether that is the correct pc word, I do not know, but it is what I have always known to be the descriptive word for my race. Of course I am not white, but a paler skin colour to those in other countries, that because of my location and ancestry.I f I lived in a hotter climate, my skin pigmentation will change to protect from the sun, could I then still be called white.

You see what words can do, they can cause offence where none is meant and all that because of often harmless misunderstanding.

But with nature the way it is, maybe we will all be the same colour one day. If that is possible, every one of us, colour or race is just as important as the next, these obscene scientific labels and the trouble they have caused will be resigned to the past.

Use of language is a difficult one. If you work for the local authority like me, (and more so in certain departments) you tend to be regularly informed as to what is and isnt offensive language.
Howver, in the uK, I do notice that the accepted use of language does differe slightle in some insatnces.
Coloured is no longer accepted in the Uk and niether are terms like 'half caste' and similar.

If you live in a rural area then you may not have any racist intentions but may not be up to dates with accepted terms of reference. This is common all over the world.

 

[jenc]

Use of language is a difficult one. If you work for the local authority like me, (and more so in certain departments) you tend to be regularly informed as to what is and isnt offensive language.
Howver, in the uK, I do notice that the accepted use of language does differe slightle in some insatnces.
Coloured is no longer accepted in the Uk and niether are terms like 'half caste' and similar.

If you live in a rural area then you may not have any racist intentions but may not be up to dates with accepted terms of reference. This is common all over the world.

What is correct according to your guidance, particularly for those from Indian sub continent asnd from far east. I should know as I work in childcare, but actually, apart from the Racial origin question on our REgistration forms for children, we tend to do everything we can to avoid saying anything - and so do children.

Me: Give it to Chris

Child: Do you mean Big Chris, Chris with a bluie jumper etc for several minutes. Neither of us saying Black Chris, the one with brown skin or similar when this is obviuosly te most noticeable thing about him!

 

[khanjar]

Use of language is a difficult one. If you work for the local authority like me, (and more so in certain departments) you tend to be regularly informed as to what is and isnt offensive language.
Howver, in the uK, I do notice that the accepted use of language does differe slightle in some insatnces.
Coloured is no longer accepted in the Uk and niether are terms like 'half caste' and similar.

If you live in a rural area then you may not have any racist intentions but may not be up to dates with accepted terms of reference. This is common all over the world.

That is the problem, though government bodies might be aware of new terms of reference, who gets to tell the populace ? Of course we hear the tv, and with current events I notice pronunciation of once known words has changed, like 'Iranians ' for example, I pronounce the word as I always have as in ire-ay-nian, when now I am beginning to notice eye-ran- ee-an, what's going on ?

I have myself used the word ' half- caste' when making a statement to the police, only for it to be suggested I was a racist by the police. My defence was that is the term I know, the term I have grown up with, if it has changed, who tells us, I don't receive a letter through the door addressed to me telling me what is and what is not acceptable.

One can learn from their time at school perhaps, but I can quite honestly say, I do not remember anything about it, why, because in a school of over 1800 people, there was no child of a colour other than white. If there was, I didn't see them, because I suppose I was not colour aware, but then how many children are ?

So Caroline, you may be the person to ask, yourself being involved in local authority, what is the socially and politically acceptable description of the various people that inhabit the British Isles ? I wish to know as I wish not to cause further offence to anyone, just for being ill educated.

As to fetishising of different races, I for one have always since I can first remember been drawn to women with dark hair, long straight dark hair and darker skin tone, why, I have no idea, but to me that is what attracts me on nature's first principle, that of initial visual attraction. Oh that and long red hair for some reason, but maybe that was to do with the description so beautifully sang in the song , ' Jolene '.

 

[karena]

That is the problem, though government bodies might be aware of new terms of reference, who gets to tell the populace ? Of course we hear the tv, and with current events I notice pronunciation of once known words has changed, like 'Iranians ' for example, I pronounce the word as I always have as in ire-ay-nian, when now I am beginning to notice eye-ran- ee-an, what's going on ?

I have myself used the word ' half- caste' when making a statement to the police, only for it to be suggested I was a racist by the police. My defence was that is the term I know, the term I have grown up with, if it has changed, who tells us, I don't receive a letter through the door addressed to me telling me what is and what is not acceptable.

One can learn from their time at school perhaps, but I can quite honestly say, I do not remember anything about it, why, because in a school of over 1800 people, there was no child of a colour other than white. If there was, I didn't see them, because I suppose I was not colour aware, but then how many children are ?

You learn from here, from the TV, from the paper, from conversations, anywhere. That's how knowledge evolves. And it will change again, and again and again. The world is, and always has been, a changing place. Government bodies are just a reflection like anywhere, it's just they have a social aim so tend to be ahead on awareness of social issues. We all just reflect what goes on around us, but you start changing your words, and gradually people around will too.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I agree with you karena, however, I think it is a little bit more difficult in semi or rural areas. Even in the cities people still use the word half caste.

As for your question Khanjar, the accepted words are black, white, Asain, Mixed race, then countries like African Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Arab etc.

As far as I am aware there are no issues with any of the above in the UK.
As local for authority workers, they often have to say something wrong before they learn what is accepted. There is no memo or anything like this.

 

[karena]

I agree with you karena, however, I think it is a little bit more difficult in semi or rural areas. Even in the cities people still use the word half caste.
.

Agreed. I wasn't giving a view of whether one should or shouldn't know, just trying to suggest some positive ways one can know.

 

[gisela]

As for your question Khanjar, the accepted words are black, white, Asain, Mixed race, then countries like African Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Arab etc.

Interesting. Here in Denmark (and Sweden as well) I would say it's completely out of the question to use the danish word for black. It's considered extremely offensiv. The equivalent of coloured is probably a little bit better. This might cause problems in discussions such as these. The most common way of talking about groups is naming the countries/areas, but that might be just assumptions based on the way they look f ex africans, arabs etc.

 

[khanjar]

You see, this can be a universal problem for all, especially with BD, as people here are from all parts of the world, have different religions, genders, colours and racial types. Though we do not intend offense, it can be given, but what is the answer, for these differences have to be talked about, as a better understanding for all. We could agree not to talk about the old pub fighting topics, that of sport, religion, politics and ethnicity, but to not talk only encourages misunderstanding the result being, we do not move forward, but stay in the past.

 

[karena]

You see, this can be a universal problem for all, especially with BD, as people here are from all parts of the world, have different religions, genders, colours and racial types. Though we do not intend offense, it can be given, but what is the answer, for these differences have to be talked about, as a better understanding for all. We could agree not to talk about the old pub fighting topics, that of sport, religion, politics and ethnicity, but to not talk only encourages misunderstanding the result being, we do not move forward, but stay in the past.

Sure. But it depends on the arena. Surely we are hear to learn? There's things I wouldn't discuss at a family dinner, but I would at a conference. Surely we all temper what we say, how controversial we are etc etc for the situation? This is life surely? I was recently picked up by a Canadian for referring to the USA America, as America is bigger than the USA. I had deliberately picked America as I don't like US as I am sure there must be other United States of other things (I may well be wrong) and I didn't like to feed the US hegemony. But inadvertantly I was doing just that. So he told me, I said that was interesting, asked him to explain the perspectives, changed my language and then chalked it up to experience, and am happier for it.

Language defines and reflects a society. We change it. It changes us. It defines how we think about things; we can't articulate what we don't have words for. That's why it matters. But we only learn by using it, and modifying when we learn something else. That's how we all learn as babies.

And discussions here are just a reflection of the world. We all come into contact with one another more than ever now, and people are having to find ways of this interaction working. At my university, we ensure that teaching reflects this, and ensures students leave with a better knowledge of how to function in this international context.

 

[jenc]

I agree with you karena, however, I think it is a little bit more difficult in semi or rural areas. Even in the cities people still use the word half caste.

As for your question Khanjar, the accepted words are black, white, Asain, Mixed race, then countries like African Chinese, Pakistani, Indian, Arab etc.

As far as I am aware there are no issues with any of the above in the UK.
As local for authority workers, they often have to say something wrong before they learn what is accepted. There is no memo or anything like this.

If you want to refer to more than one group, or you don't know precise origins, you also have problems. Asian refers both to Chinese, Japanese and also to the Indian subcontinent. You might mean by Asian a group of people variously from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh but non from Far East. If you don't know exactly where someone comes from you have to lump them together.

Also if there are some black people ni your group, you would have to call the group black, which makes the others invisible. I prefer people of colour, but I don't think it is widely used at all

 

[karena]

If you want to refer to more than one group, or you don't know precise origins, you also have problems. Asian refers both to Chinese, Japanese and also to the Indian subcontinent. You might mean by Asian a group of people variously from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh but non from Far East. If you don't know exactly where someone comes from you have to lump them together.

Also if there are some black people ni your group, you would have to call the group black, which makes the others invisible. I prefer people of colour, but I don't think it is widely used at all

But why do we need a word to refer to all non-white people? Do we need a word for black people to refer to all non-black people, or Asian people to refer to all non-Asians? To me it is the reductionism which is constructing people as 'them over there', to be put in one big category, that is part of the problem. I can't think of a situation in general parlance where I would need to refer to all non-white people as one.

In a professional capacity, I would use BME (Black and Minority Ethnic), which is the circles I move in is widely understood but I wouldn't say that to Jo Public, just because I wouldn't assume they would understand the term, and I try not to bore everyone I meet with detail of my work.:lol:. (I have yet to find out the origins of this term, and it interests me :think

 

[maylynn]

I've noticed that terminology used to classify ethnicity varies a lot between countries/regions.

For example, similary to Karena's experience, here in the UK the US is referred to as America, whereas that's not done in North America - or at least has not been in common usage for a century or so! I've also noticed that Australians use that term.

Also in the UK 'Asian' denotes the wide category that Jen described, but I've noticed that usually it's used in reference to people from the Indian subcontinent & region, whereas in N.America it's used in reference to East Asians (China, Japan, Korea, etc.). I personally think it's a bit too vague - kind of like referring to people as 'Oriental'. Saying 'they're from east of us' is pretty much only saying 'they're not from here'.

Then again in N.America 'Indian' is used as a blanket term which often includes people not from India, e.g. Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka...

And in the UK it's perfectly acceptable, even for government and Police, to use the term 'foreigners' to refer to immigrants/tourists/etc, which to me really smacks of xenophobia since it's basically categorizing along the lines of 'them' and 'us', and often used negatively in the press.

Anyway, the lesson I take from all of this is that these categories are completely subjective, and I don't like to use them at all. I don't discuss people's ethnic background unless I'm speaking to them directly in a personal context, because I know that compared to them I'm totally ignorant about the history and politics that influences what they do or do not find offensive - just as it is with me when I am (mistakenly) categorized as foreign/American/mixed race/half caste/mestiza/whatever.

 

[jenc]

Well I don't actually need to refer to them en bloc. I guess that I was thinking of early anti-racist training that I went on that stated categorically that all non-whites could be considered black and felt solidarity because of their oppression by whites. Same guy (white) said that racism could only be white people's feelings about and treatment of blacks and not vice versa as it was rooted in power structures.

So instead of having useful discussion on our own attitudes we spent rest of sessino discussing whether black teenagers attacking white was racism and a lot of other Daily Mail stories as to whther or not they were actually racism rather than discussing stereotypes, and other ways of looking at things

 

[Caroline_afifi]

If you want to refer to more than one group, or you don't know precise origins, you also have problems. Asian refers both to Chinese, Japanese and also to the Indian subcontinent. You might mean by Asian a group of people variously from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh but non from Far East. If you don't know exactly where someone comes from you have to lump them together.

Also if there are some black people ni your group, you would have to call the group black, which makes the others invisible. I prefer people of colour, but I don't think it is widely used at all

Anybody who is non white is reffered to as black. Black caucas groups in University are for anyone who considers themselves non white.
I remember a bit of bickering about this when I was at uni as some people accused others of not being black enough and so on.

The local Police authority and nationally has the Black officers group and this too is for anyone who identifies themselves as non white.

Black is a political word for meaning non white in the UK.

 

[jenc]

Anybody who is non white is reffered to as black. Black caucas groups in University are for anyone who considers themselves non white.
I remember a bit of bickering about this when I was at uni as some people accused others of not being black enough and so on.

The local Police authority and nationally has the Black officers group and this too is for anyone who identifies themselves as non white.

Black is a political word for meaning non white in the UK.

Well not everyone non-white likes being called black and mixed races may be considered not to belong by both black and white so I don't think it is good enough. Who is actually black anyway, beautiful shades of golden brown and coffee are dismissed as black - then you get skin whitening as only white is good enough!!

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Well not everyone non-white likes being called black and mixed races may be considered not to belong by both black and white so I don't think it is good enough. Who is actually black anyway, beautiful shades of golden brown and coffee are dismissed as black - then you get skin whitening as only white is good enough!!

Yes, I agree. From what I understand, it is Black groups whom have come up with the various definitions. There is a consultation preocess at the highest levels and this is constantly reviewed to incorperate new groups like travellers and assylum seekers etc.

It can be very complicated to try and convince someone from Iraq who has just arrived in the country that they are black.

 

[khanjar]

So those here that are not of a typical majority uk type skin colour, you see we have a problem. The terms we use could be out of ignorance, or it could be because the whole subject is messed up to the point that no one really knows what is acceptable to all. I used the word 'coloured', to me that was a polite term of reference.

I dislike the term ' black ', because of reasons mentioned here by others, black people are not black, but many shades of the colour brown and if you look at it further, though I do not go out in the sun much, my skin colour as it is now due to normal everyday weathering, is a lighter shade of brown. Some would call that white, but I fail to see where a lighter shade of brown is white.

But whatever word is used one has to remember the context in which the word is used, surely people can discern from written sentence in what way a word is meant. If they can do this and understand, why pick up on one word in that sentence and display disgust, when they know no offense is meant by the words surrounding that word.

Perhaps a way forward for all of us is for people of another ethnology, to not be so sensitive to single words in sentences, understand the context and forgive those others who struggle to choose the correct word when none yet is defined that is comfortable to all.


(Just to mention, from my many ethnically different friends, I have been called many things, whitey and others perhaps in the wrong context would be offensive, but I decided long ago, what I may be called by another, I will not take offense to, because for someone to attempt slander or ridicule by colour, is just a reflection on themselves. Any other adjective used to describe me, long haired yeti, fungus face, bean pole or similar, I can put up with, because it is only the person's observation and they are only one person, they are also things I can change if I so wished, but my skin colour, largely I can't change, so for someone to pick out a person for something they cannot change is frankly pathetic)

 

[Mya]

skin colour is so bloody arbitrary as far as i'm concerned. I have a cousin who is my complexion but lived in canada for almost a decade and came back very very fair skinned - does that make her "whiter" now than she was before she left? What about now that she's moved back to Trinidad? Is she going to be blacker now that her skin will darken again??

I remember working in one of our government ministries a few years ago during our semester break and the department was starkly divided between indian folk and negro folk. They barely even spoke to each other and neither of them could decide whether they should speak to me because i'm neither indian nor black nor spanish, yet still i'm all of them. What confused them further was that i spoke to EVERYBODY - to me then, these are boundaries that we create, not ones that exist naturally. By the time i left that office EVERYONE spoke to me even if not to each other, so that i also believe that we can change these attitudes.

Also when i went to university here, i encountered this same black/indian division but no one there seemed confused - they all automatically classed me as indian (despite my exceptionally curly hair and not really indian features). I still spoke to everyone and managed to have everyone speak to me but i was never able to have anyone except those folks that knew from before, identify me as anything but indian.

It's even worse now that we have an exceptional influx of latin americans in Trinidad - they all insist that i'm not actually Trinidadian but that i'm spanish and that they see it.

It's random. Random assignment. I don't think i'll ever believe anything different.