Sex and Sensuality
- Thread starter Brea
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Salome
Administrator
When I’m talking to the GP: there is a more animalistic connotation connected to the word sex versus sensuality, for most people. So I tend to talk about it in terms of sensuality. The sex word kind of conjures up the actual act and getting to the act whereas sensuality evokes the more subtle layers of passion and other related feelings in its many expressions and motivations. I've never had this converstation with GP after a performance but rather if the subject comes up that I dance etc. etc.
Sensuality is a part of us, the human race, it is a part of us when we dance. Much of the movement is sensual and often times so is the music. A song about being in the throes of new love... How are you going to express that message and feeling in the song without sensuality? To say the movement is sensual is not to say that I believe the movements were designed, or are about, making the penis erect. That's definitely not what I'm talking about. There are many things in life where we experience sensuality that have nothing to do with literally becoming sexually excited.
Some folks have a big beef about cutting/cleaning out the sensuality in order to make it a more legitimate and accepted dance form. So people can give themselves permission to participate in it. It can’t just be accepted on its own merit. I relish the sensuality. I don’t relish superficial, base behavior on stage – it turns me off. It says to me that the dancer is uncomfortable with herself, she doesn’t now who she is or what she is doing, or how to relate real feeling and the experience with her audience.
How exactly that sensuality comes through has everything to do with the individual, their personality, how they relate to themselves and their world. From a teaching perspective I don’t really address it directly in conversation. I teach my students to try and understand the music, the feeling of it and how to bring the sound and feeling into the physical. In that respect I teach by example (what sensuality means in terms of Oriental dance expression - that it's not shaking your girls on a bald man's head or throwing porno faces) how to be real with it. And when you are coming from that place you can’t really go wrong, whether your personality leads you to do it in a sophisticated way, or refined, or simply, or gently, or subdued, or with abandon… I hope that doesn't seem braggy. What I mean to say is that is my intention and goal in working with dance students.
I think for the MOST part when the GP see's a performance and the dancer isn't raunchy it really doesn't need a 'this is not about turning you on' explanation as it's clear.
Sensuality is a part of us, the human race, it is a part of us when we dance. Much of the movement is sensual and often times so is the music. A song about being in the throes of new love... How are you going to express that message and feeling in the song without sensuality? To say the movement is sensual is not to say that I believe the movements were designed, or are about, making the penis erect. That's definitely not what I'm talking about. There are many things in life where we experience sensuality that have nothing to do with literally becoming sexually excited.
Some folks have a big beef about cutting/cleaning out the sensuality in order to make it a more legitimate and accepted dance form. So people can give themselves permission to participate in it. It can’t just be accepted on its own merit. I relish the sensuality. I don’t relish superficial, base behavior on stage – it turns me off. It says to me that the dancer is uncomfortable with herself, she doesn’t now who she is or what she is doing, or how to relate real feeling and the experience with her audience.
How exactly that sensuality comes through has everything to do with the individual, their personality, how they relate to themselves and their world. From a teaching perspective I don’t really address it directly in conversation. I teach my students to try and understand the music, the feeling of it and how to bring the sound and feeling into the physical. In that respect I teach by example (what sensuality means in terms of Oriental dance expression - that it's not shaking your girls on a bald man's head or throwing porno faces) how to be real with it. And when you are coming from that place you can’t really go wrong, whether your personality leads you to do it in a sophisticated way, or refined, or simply, or gently, or subdued, or with abandon… I hope that doesn't seem braggy. What I mean to say is that is my intention and goal in working with dance students.
I think for the MOST part when the GP see's a performance and the dancer isn't raunchy it really doesn't need a 'this is not about turning you on' explanation as it's clear.
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adiemus
New member
yup, me too!
Sensuality refers to soooo much more than just sex, although sex is sensual. Sensuality is about emotions and textures and passion and vision and sound and colour and being 'in' the moment and appreciating all the senses.
I don't believe it's possible to remove the sensuality from dance, and have a 'real' dance - instead you get a passionless, remote recital of movements, a la some of the robotic 'performances' in ballet for example (not that ballet is passionless per se - but it probably has more examples of remote lack of feeling than many others).
Sensuality refers to soooo much more than just sex, although sex is sensual. Sensuality is about emotions and textures and passion and vision and sound and colour and being 'in' the moment and appreciating all the senses.
I don't believe it's possible to remove the sensuality from dance, and have a 'real' dance - instead you get a passionless, remote recital of movements, a la some of the robotic 'performances' in ballet for example (not that ballet is passionless per se - but it probably has more examples of remote lack of feeling than many others).
Suhad
New member
*sigh* let the flaming begin, if it must...
Why, oh why must we separate SEXUALITY from SENSUALITY....?
We are sexual beings. Plain and simple. We always have been, always will be. The sensuality of our dance if part and parcel of being sexual beings....and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!
Does that mean that 'porn faces' or other such nonsense is something I endorse, or think should be accepted part of the dance? NO! THAT is fake. But the real sexuality, the real sensuality, is part of us, each and every one of us, and is something to be accepted--embraced--and danced. That, to me, is what the music so many times is saying. It is a purely unbridled celebration of that which is in each of us. It is a purely unbridled celebration of life...and sex my friends, is what got each and every one of us here to celebrate.
I don't know why it is that particularly in Western culture we must go to such great lengths to separate sensuality and sexuality. It also goes along with why belly dancing is viewed with such a schizophrenic outlook in the ME, in my opinion. It's not about liberation or whatever; it's the discomfort with having such an open display of the sexuality/sensuality inherent in the dance. But. The two are intertwined, as Divinity meant them to be.
You CAN have a sensual experience without having sex, that is true. But to separate the two as though one is ONE thing and the other is DIFFERENT without owning up to the relatedness is kind of being fake in the same way as dancing with a fake porn face or whatever. In my opinion.
Why, oh why must we separate SEXUALITY from SENSUALITY....?
We are sexual beings. Plain and simple. We always have been, always will be. The sensuality of our dance if part and parcel of being sexual beings....and THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!
Does that mean that 'porn faces' or other such nonsense is something I endorse, or think should be accepted part of the dance? NO! THAT is fake. But the real sexuality, the real sensuality, is part of us, each and every one of us, and is something to be accepted--embraced--and danced. That, to me, is what the music so many times is saying. It is a purely unbridled celebration of that which is in each of us. It is a purely unbridled celebration of life...and sex my friends, is what got each and every one of us here to celebrate.
I don't know why it is that particularly in Western culture we must go to such great lengths to separate sensuality and sexuality. It also goes along with why belly dancing is viewed with such a schizophrenic outlook in the ME, in my opinion. It's not about liberation or whatever; it's the discomfort with having such an open display of the sexuality/sensuality inherent in the dance. But. The two are intertwined, as Divinity meant them to be.
You CAN have a sensual experience without having sex, that is true. But to separate the two as though one is ONE thing and the other is DIFFERENT without owning up to the relatedness is kind of being fake in the same way as dancing with a fake porn face or whatever. In my opinion.
Salome
Administrator
I never indicated or said that I don't see them as related. I simply do not see them as being the exact same thing. Putting aside lewdness, for the most part, lol - there are some dancers who are (or can be) very 'in your face' with their sexuality, Dina for example or Nagua Fouad. There are just as many dancers who, as Adiemus said, emote sensuality it's textures, passion... appreciating all the senses without packing a carnal punch. I think this comes down to the individual person and their cup of tea. To pick on Dina a tiny bit. There's that performance of hers in what appears to be bikini briefs in a see through mini skirt and she does her 'jewel' move, bending over and slowly swaying her ass from one side to the other. In my opinion, anyone is capable of putting their ass in the air in bikini bottoms. Clearly she is making a statement. But it doesn't do anything for me in terms of 'wow, she really brought out the complexity of feeling there'.
Are saying that you interpret the music you work with as being about celebration or sex or one in the same?
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adiemus
New member
I do disagree with you, Suhad, and please don't take this as being disrespectful, just a different opinion, but I do see a difference and separation between sexuality and sensuality. I see absolutely nothing wrong with being a sexual being, sexuality is completely human, normal, real, and part of us all. But it's different from sensuality in qualitative ways, at least for me.
To have GREAT sex I think it's vital to be sensual - but it is possible to have sex without sensuality (but it would be about mechanics for me). Sensuality is about emotions because it is about savouring the entire experience, so it enriches an experience.
Here's a definition from Merriam-Webster for sensual:
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin sensualis, from Latin sensus sense
Date: 15th century
- relating to or consisting in the gratification of the senses or the indulgence of appetite
here is the Merriam-Webster definition of sex:
Etymology:Late Latin sexualis, from Latin sexus sex
Date: 1651
- of, relating to, or associated with sex or the sexes
And from Encarta: sensual or sensuous?
Both words are connected with gratification of the human senses. Sensual is the older word, and in the 17th century it developed special meanings associated with the bodily appetites, especially eating and above all sexual satisfaction: Her mouth looked sensual and inviting.They enjoyed the sensual pleasures of the table. About this time the poet John Milton seems to have invented the word sensuous to refer more specifically to the aesthetic and spiritual senses (seeing, hearing, thinking), and it was taken up by Samuel Taylor Coleridge in the 19th century. In current use, it is almost impossible to keep the two sets of meanings apart, since the senses cannot readily be compartmentalized in this way, but it is prudent to have regard for the main distinction when using these words. Sensuous, for example, is the word to use in connection with music or poetry: The conductor relished the sensuous parts of Ravel's score.
sex·u·al [ sékshoo əl, séksh'l ]
adjective
Definition:
1. of sex: relating to sex, sexuality, or the sexual organs
a sexual disease
2. relating to either sex: relating to the two sexes or to either of them
sexual differences
3. biology involving reproductive union: relating to the union of male and female gametes in reproduction
So: for me, sexuality refers to the act of sexual intercourse - which usually involves sensuality, while sensuality refers to the senses, and especially indulging the senses.
To have GREAT sex I think it's vital to be sensual - but it is possible to have sex without sensuality (but it would be about mechanics for me). Sensuality is about emotions because it is about savouring the entire experience, so it enriches an experience.
Here's a definition from Merriam-Webster for sensual:
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin sensualis, from Latin sensus sense
Date: 15th century
- relating to or consisting in the gratification of the senses or the indulgence of appetite
here is the Merriam-Webster definition of sex:
Etymology:Late Latin sexualis, from Latin sexus sex
Date: 1651
- of, relating to, or associated with sex or the sexes
And from Encarta: sensual or sensuous?
Both words are connected with gratification of the human senses. Sensual is the older word, and in the 17th century it developed special meanings associated with the bodily appetites, especially eating and above all sexual satisfaction: Her mouth looked sensual and inviting.They enjoyed the sensual pleasures of the table. About this time the poet John Milton seems to have invented the word sensuous to refer more specifically to the aesthetic and spiritual senses (seeing, hearing, thinking), and it was taken up by Samuel Taylor Coleridge in the 19th century. In current use, it is almost impossible to keep the two sets of meanings apart, since the senses cannot readily be compartmentalized in this way, but it is prudent to have regard for the main distinction when using these words. Sensuous, for example, is the word to use in connection with music or poetry: The conductor relished the sensuous parts of Ravel's score.
sex·u·al [ sékshoo əl, séksh'l ]
adjective
Definition:
1. of sex: relating to sex, sexuality, or the sexual organs
a sexual disease
2. relating to either sex: relating to the two sexes or to either of them
sexual differences
3. biology involving reproductive union: relating to the union of male and female gametes in reproduction
So: for me, sexuality refers to the act of sexual intercourse - which usually involves sensuality, while sensuality refers to the senses, and especially indulging the senses.
jenc
New member
Sensuality and sexuality are of course essentially related. But for example, the joy at physical contact with your child, is a SENSUAL feling that is deeper and richer than mere sex. Where sensuality has been denied and we are unable to differentiate, we get perverted sexuality, anything from bimbos with breast implants to paedophiles. Because we can't tell the difference, a nasty form of sexuality is being presented as the norm, all about bodies and image. We have a culture where real experiences are denied to children and replaced by happy meals and cartoons. Then what they see as grown up experience is not seen to be as emotionally poverty stricken as it truly is.
Caroline_afifi
New member
I agree that this is well explained but I have one or two things to add or ask.
Firstly we cannot control what turns people on.
When we perform we have to be prepared to expose ourselves a little (not physically but emotionally). We have to go through not doing it, over doing it and not wanting to do it, in order to create a balance.
A friend of mine used to cry when doing baladi because the slow moves made her feel so exposed.
Brea mentions the kids thing again and it raises the piont again for me that we are dealing with exposure of a person and it may not be appropriate for a child (in performance).
Questions;
How do we try to contain someone without passing judgement when their sensual expression goes over the top? what can we do if they refuse to curtail it?
This is always to the big one for me. I see a dancer discover a new found sensuality and confidence and before you know it, she is gyrating and spaying mating vibes into the air!:shok:
Moon
New member
I agree 100% with Salome.
I prefer to use "sensuality" instead of "sexuality" when talking to the Western GP because most Western GP will think of a sexual dance as trying to seduce men, looking "hot", showing as much skin as possible. Things that would automatically make less atractive, too skinny, too chubby, too old or male dancer a bad bellydancer because it's not "sexy" according to the general ignorant male audience who expects to be seduced by the bellydancer.
While sensuality also means expressing your emotions, being comfortable with your emotions and your body, feeling beautiful and attractive etc.
I prefer to use "sensuality" instead of "sexuality" when talking to the Western GP because most Western GP will think of a sexual dance as trying to seduce men, looking "hot", showing as much skin as possible. Things that would automatically make less atractive, too skinny, too chubby, too old or male dancer a bad bellydancer because it's not "sexy" according to the general ignorant male audience who expects to be seduced by the bellydancer.
While sensuality also means expressing your emotions, being comfortable with your emotions and your body, feeling beautiful and attractive etc.
Aisha Azar
New member
Sexuality, etc
Dear Gang,
The Arabs that I know refer to the dance as "sexy and flirty". I have no problem at all with people seeing the dance as sexual. I do not usually have to express how I THINK about this to my audience. I see nothing wrong with good, healthy sexuality.I am considered to be a fairly sexual dancer, and I have heard people refer to me as "sexy", but never "sleazy". I think westerners try too hard to "clean up" the image of belly dance. In many cases, our puritanical roots are showing when we feel the need to justify the dance, because even Muslims in general seem to think its pretty fun and they do not distinguish between sensual and sexual in the dance. ( They usually think that if you are out there flaunting it in such revealing clothing and those moves, you can't have THAT high a moral standing, anyway.) I think part of its appeal is its somewhat naughty reputation, and I have to say I like it that way. It adds a bit of spice to the mix, if you ask me. And, I think the way to clean up the reputation of belly dance is not to talk about it, but to put quality belly dance out there for people to see. Let them make up their own minds about its sexuality or sensuality, because yes, these two words mean different things to different people, but then, so does the dance itself.
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Gang,
The Arabs that I know refer to the dance as "sexy and flirty". I have no problem at all with people seeing the dance as sexual. I do not usually have to express how I THINK about this to my audience. I see nothing wrong with good, healthy sexuality.I am considered to be a fairly sexual dancer, and I have heard people refer to me as "sexy", but never "sleazy". I think westerners try too hard to "clean up" the image of belly dance. In many cases, our puritanical roots are showing when we feel the need to justify the dance, because even Muslims in general seem to think its pretty fun and they do not distinguish between sensual and sexual in the dance. ( They usually think that if you are out there flaunting it in such revealing clothing and those moves, you can't have THAT high a moral standing, anyway.) I think part of its appeal is its somewhat naughty reputation, and I have to say I like it that way. It adds a bit of spice to the mix, if you ask me. And, I think the way to clean up the reputation of belly dance is not to talk about it, but to put quality belly dance out there for people to see. Let them make up their own minds about its sexuality or sensuality, because yes, these two words mean different things to different people, but then, so does the dance itself.
Regards,
A'isha
Marya
Member
another ditto
Yes, Salome,
You wrote it out clearly, succinctly, and directly, Thanks,
Marya
Yes, Salome,
You wrote it out clearly, succinctly, and directly, Thanks,
Marya
I agree with both Aisha and Salome. All the way through the dance is sensual, but at certain point it can be sexual and that isn't really a bad thing. I think there is a difference between sexuality and sensuality though. Eg/ Flirting is sensual, if some one flirting comes across as too overtly sexual though then they aren't flirting anymore. Flirting is a balance.
When people try to clean it up then it causes problems cause it's contradictory to do undulations, and chest shimmies, and say that it isn't sensual/sexual. We'd just look like we were in denial. It doesn't have to be sleazy though.
For example, when me and my friends are all dancing in the club together, it can be really sensual, sexual, but because the intent behind us dancing is to have fun and enjoy ourselves then it isn't really sleazy and no one takes it as that.
Thought I'd link this thread in to add to the discussion.
http://forum.orientaldancer.net/other-dance-stuff/5211-leila-haddad-suggestive.html
When people try to clean it up then it causes problems cause it's contradictory to do undulations, and chest shimmies, and say that it isn't sensual/sexual. We'd just look like we were in denial. It doesn't have to be sleazy though.
For example, when me and my friends are all dancing in the club together, it can be really sensual, sexual, but because the intent behind us dancing is to have fun and enjoy ourselves then it isn't really sleazy and no one takes it as that.
Thought I'd link this thread in to add to the discussion.
http://forum.orientaldancer.net/other-dance-stuff/5211-leila-haddad-suggestive.html
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Caroline_afifi
New member
Clean it up? sex and sexuality? sleaze?
what does all this mean? who decides what is what? who decides its a step too far? who moans when it goes a step too far?
I thought the dance expressed more than our just our desire to mate, are we saying it is a one trick pony now?
questions questions...
what does all this mean? who decides what is what? who decides its a step too far? who moans when it goes a step too far?
I thought the dance expressed more than our just our desire to mate, are we saying it is a one trick pony now?
questions questions...
Aisha Azar
New member
Sexuality
Dear Caroline,
Do you really think of sexuality as a "one trick pony"? I think there is nothing more complex than our sexuality, and that each of us, in expressing it are expressing far more than just our "desire to mate". Sexuality is a thread in every single thing we do and is not something we can section our and put on display in and of itself, any more than we could hack out a section of our lung and call it our whole breathing system. Sexuality is in everything from the smells that attract us, to the appreciating the way another human being walks, to responding to the feel of a warm breeze on our faces, to the taste of warm, ripe tomato right off the vine, to the sound of the music that moves us in our very guts. This is about something more than "sensual", it is instead visceral response to life itself. It is more than sensual because it is too primal to be sensual. It is earthy and oozy. Sensuality is the tip of the iceberg. Mouna Said is not sensual; she is in your face sexy as she can be. So are Aida Nour and Randa Kemal. Fifi trips over the line and is often just plain raunchy. Now, who was the highest paid belly dancer ever????
Regards,
A'isha
Dear Caroline,
Do you really think of sexuality as a "one trick pony"? I think there is nothing more complex than our sexuality, and that each of us, in expressing it are expressing far more than just our "desire to mate". Sexuality is a thread in every single thing we do and is not something we can section our and put on display in and of itself, any more than we could hack out a section of our lung and call it our whole breathing system. Sexuality is in everything from the smells that attract us, to the appreciating the way another human being walks, to responding to the feel of a warm breeze on our faces, to the taste of warm, ripe tomato right off the vine, to the sound of the music that moves us in our very guts. This is about something more than "sensual", it is instead visceral response to life itself. It is more than sensual because it is too primal to be sensual. It is earthy and oozy. Sensuality is the tip of the iceberg. Mouna Said is not sensual; she is in your face sexy as she can be. So are Aida Nour and Randa Kemal. Fifi trips over the line and is often just plain raunchy. Now, who was the highest paid belly dancer ever????
Regards,
A'isha
Caroline_afifi
New member
I absolutely didnt say that is what i thought, I actually asked questions. Are we saying??
I dont have a problem with sex or sensuality in the dance. I have actually said that. I want to know what various lines people draw between sleaze and sexy and that question has not actaully been answered.
Sometimes these threads are hard to follow and jump around a bit and thoughts fly all over the place.
They are merely theories to provide food for thought and thanks for adding yours.
Caroline
Caroline_afifi
New member
:lol: OK Zorba, what shall we get into?
I think we come on here for different reasons. I want to learn and exchange thoughts. We follow a conversion that captures our imagination and avoid others that just dont. Sah?
Zorba
"The Veiled Male"
Oh dear, it seems I went and put my foot in my mouth (again)...:lol: OK Zorba, what shall we get into?
I think we come on here for different reasons. I want to learn and exchange thoughts. We follow a conversion that captures our imagination and avoid others that just dont. Sah?
I didn't mean it "that" way - I'm all for the free exchange of ideas also! I'm just meaning not to waste energy arguing semantics - state some definitions if we have to, and discuss it from that standpoint. "Sex/Sexuality" as someone stated can mean a lot of different things - so two people get into an argument because they have different definitions in mind, when they're actually saying the same thing (but don't realize it.)!
Suhad
New member
Thank you Aisha for both of your posts. That is what I was trying to say and naturally putting my foot in my mouth.
Salome, no I don't mean that 'sex' is what the dance is about...I mean it in the way that Aisha has described. The separation between sex and sensual, as though one is 'good' and 'acceptable' in polite society and the other not, is relatively new in human history and as I was not brought up that way (but always knew others were brought up differently) it still to this day seems very odd to me. And I do sometimes have issues about how people will perceive me, my dance, and my body because of the dance--because some will misinterpret, regardless of what I or anyone else says or does. Then again, people will misinterpret in every day life as well, due to their own hangups rather than anything a given person says or does.
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