Wikipedia article on Belly Dance

[Crow]

Hi all,

I've recently started paying attention to the Belly Dance article on Wikipedia, and editing some of it. Not adding content: mostly moving, fixing, improving sources, etc.

I was shocked to find that the article wasn't even listed in the "Dances" category, so I put it there.

I am currently proposing a merge of this article with the Raqs Sharqi one, as I think the information in one should be in the other.

If you want to help me put the house in order, increase the quality of the article and assist in improving the image of belly dance as an art form, then do contribute on the talk pages. My login on wikipedia is Maszanchi.

Cheers!

 

[Kashmir]

Good luck! Many years ago I tried correcting some of the balant errors, wishtory and sheer ignorance in the article. WIthin a week it always turned back into senseless drivel. After a few months I washed my hands of it and tell anyone who asks to avoid believing anything they read there which cannot be justified by reputable siurces (and no - Wendy B or Delilah are not such! - or that Grandmother's SEcrets drivel).

It isn't just belly dance - I think it applies to anything that attracts people with more passion than knowledge. A friend with over 40 years experience in the Fireworks Industry (and has been asked to speak at professional conferences worldwide) spent time and efforrt on that article and had a similar experience.

 

[Shanazel]

Go for it, Crow. Can't hurt; might help (albeit temporarily).

 

[Roshanna]

I'm up for it, as a geek with a decent library, low tolerance for unreferenced wishtory, and a certain tendency to procrastinate which I like to harness in order to do minor good in the world. My username is Oddparticle. Maybe if enough of us are willing to check regularly and try to keep things sane, we can get it generally a bit less full of rubbish.

Like an elite squad of wikipedia bellydance nerd vigilantes

BTW, I notice someone has removed almost the entire section on the UK bellydance scene! That seems a bit harsh. We do exist And the poor Canadians just get one sentence saying they are just like America!

 

[Roshanna]

PS, I notice that many notable dancers don't even have Wikipedia entries. This might be a worthwhile task for anyone who wants to improve the representation of bellydance on Wikipedia, and less likely to get immediately reversed by ill informed people. E.g., Soheir Zaki, Mona Said, Randa Kamel, all don't have entries...

I don't feel quite up to creating them myself yet as I'm a total Wikipedia newbie, but I'm happy to help add content once they exist

 

[Darshiva]

Suggestion: copy & paste any of your hard work into a notepad file so that when it inevitably gets deleted, you can just copy & paste it right back in there.

Also, remember to cite sources. If you do that, and someone deletes your content, you can contest it with the sources that back you up.

 

[Roshanna]

Suggestion: copy & paste any of your hard work into a notepad file so that when it inevitably gets deleted, you can just copy & paste it right back in there.

Also, remember to cite sources. If you do that, and someone deletes your content, you can contest it with the sources that back you up.

Good idea, thanks for the tips I've been rewriting the UK bellydance section in my lunch break, will make sure to save it so I can restore it if needed!

I'm already trying to reference, but it's tricky when I'm talking about essentially the history of the dance scene in the last 30 years in the UK - I've got a couple of GS articles, but not a lot else, most of what I know is from experience/talking to people/personal websites that aren't authoritative references...

I'll get started on some of the other sections at some point, but those are a bit more challenging to reorganise, & I'd rather have my books to hand!

 

[Roshanna]

Another idea: Adding prominent bellydancers who already have entries to the alphabetical list of all dancers.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

You might send a note to Sahra Kent -- she's been trying to get that changed for ages now, and has run into the same problems as Kashmir.

 

[Daimona]

Please do, and please don't give up!

The more I read that article, the more frustrated I get too.
But I'm not sure it should be merged with the Raqs Sharqi-article. Yes, there are and will be overlapping content, but considering the different derivations and regional styles, I'd rather keep the better written Raqs Sharqi-article as it is, but restructuring the bd article and linking them together.

I would structure the article like this:

• Origin and definition
• Regional styles (with differences in regional steps, music and costuming if applicable, linking to separate articles where applicable, such as Raqs Sharki)
• Derivated styles (American oriental, tribal styles etc) with short summaries, linking to separate articles.
• Notable performers (unless these are divided by and listed under the regional styles, which ihmo could be a better idea)
• etc.

Another tip would be to mark every part missing reference or make notes wherever citations are needed or interpretations differ greatly.

 

[Zorba]

Good luck! Many years ago I tried correcting some of the balant errors, wishtory and sheer ignorance in the article. WIthin a week it always turned back into senseless drivel.

I had a similar experience when I tried to improve the section on male dancers.

 

[Sirène]

Good luck to you, correcting Wikipedia is not for the faint of heart.

I am currently proposing a merge of this article with the Raqs Sharqi one, as I think the information in one should be in the other.

I'm with Daimona, "belly dance" includes regional styles that are pretty far removed from classic "raqs sharqi" so I wouldn't merge the two. However there should definitely be linkage between them.

 

[Aniseteph]

... And the poor Canadians just get one sentence saying they are just like America!

Asia just has

Asia now has belly dancing competitions, like the Asia Global Belly Dance Competition.

Wouldn't it be great if whoever entered that valuable contribution had noticed that Asia also has parts of Turkey and Egypt, and the Middle East. wikidrivel.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

All I can say is :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[Sophia Maria]

I must admit, I don't get around to reading the wikipedia article a lot. But I've never found it to be that bad. It's not the best, and definitely brushes over some topics, but why has it been bad?

 

[Daimona]

I must admit, I don't get around to reading the wikipedia article a lot. But I've never found it to be that bad. It's not the best, and definitely brushes over some topics, but why has it been bad?

At first glance it doesn't seem to be too bad, but if you read a couple of more times and think about what an article like this should include, you'll notice it's weaknesses.

 

[Roshanna]

Please do, and please don't give up!

The more I read that article, the more frustrated I get too.
But I'm not sure it should be merged with the Raqs Sharqi-article. Yes, there are and will be overlapping content, but considering the different derivations and regional styles, I'd rather keep the better written Raqs Sharqi-article as it is, but restructuring the bd article and linking them together.

I would structure the article like this:

• Origin and definition
• Regional styles (with differences in regional steps, music and costuming if applicable, linking to separate articles where applicable, such as Raqs Sharki)
• Derivated styles (American oriental, tribal styles etc) with short summaries, linking to separate articles.
• Notable performers (unless these are divided by and listed under the regional styles, which ihmo could be a better idea)
• etc.

Another tip would be to mark every part missing reference or make notes wherever citations are needed or interpretations differ greatly.

Hmm, this makes sense. I mostly agree with your suggestions for the structure. However, I think it might be less confusing to keep the core regional Bellydance styles (Egyptian, Turkish, Lebanese, and American oriental?) in the main article, with links out to separate pages for any folkloric dances with ties to each style e.g. Saiidi, dabke, khaleegi, melaya leff, and to the derived styles like tribal.

I agree it would be clearer to group costuming, notable dancers, etc under the different styles. The overview should probably also discuss the typical movements and costuming that unite all Bellydance styles. I also notice that there is little mention of music at the moment...

 

[Daimona]

Hmm, this makes sense. I mostly agree with your suggestions for the structure. However, I think it might be less confusing to keep the core regional Bellydance styles (Egyptian, Turkish, Lebanese, and American oriental?) in the main article, with links out to separate pages for any folkloric dances with ties to each style e.g. Saiidi, dabke, khaleegi, melaya leff, and to the derived styles like tribal.

I agree it would be clearer to group costuming, notable dancers, etc under the different styles. The overview should probably also discuss the typical movements and costuming that unite all Bellydance styles. I also notice that there is little mention of music at the moment...

And just to make it even more clear: I'm not saying that the main regional styles shouldn't be talked about in the main article, just that more in-depth articles on the different styles should be on separate pages. This would hopefully make the article easier to maintain and the task of restructuring it smaller. At the moment, the emphasis of the article is on the costume* and the section "belly dance in the West"**. Even if most of us (at least on this forum) do like the costumes and probably resides in the West, the dance do come from the Middle East.

*) There is nothing wrong with a chapter on costuming, but right now the information is pretty inaccurate and out-of-date as the costuming fashion has shifted quite a bit during the last decades.

**) When did Asia become a part of the west? Wouldn't it be better to call it something like "Bellydance outside the Middle East"? And aren't the trends global rather than divided by just a few countries (USA, UK, Australia) or continents (Asia). I'm pretty sure latin-american, european (outside the UK), african and asian dancers etc feel this section is missing something..

 

[Kashmir]

I must admit, I don't get around to reading the wikipedia article a lot. But I've never found it to be that bad. It's not the best, and definitely brushes over some topics, but why has it been bad?

My experience was some years back - and I gave up in disgust. Then it was full of stuff about ancient temple dancers and priestess, "by women for women",harem fantasies, cheerful gypsies bringing the dance to the ignorant Egyptians who had no idea you could move to music and the rest. Little or no real (ie accurate) information.

So signing on now things do seem to have improved but:

The term "belly dance" is a translation of the French "danse du ventre" which was applied to the dance in the Victorian era. It is something of a misnomer as every part of the body is involved in the dance;

Good - but missing the point it was accurate when describing the dances of the OUled Nail who were probably better known to the French than Egyptian dancers.

Raqs sharqi (Arabic: رقص شرقي‎; literally "eastern/oriental dancing") is the style more familiar to Westerners, performed in restaurants and cabarets around the world. It is more commonly performed by female dancers but is also sometimes danced by men. It is a solo improvisational dance, although students often perform choreographed dances in a group.

- yes but it is the name of the professional dance performed in Egypt in nightclubs and similar venues. There are other professional styles (eg urban beledi and ghawazee) - the former of which you will also see in Western dance venues.

Raqs baladi, (Arabic: رقص بلدي‎; literally "local dancing", or "folk" dance) is the folkloric style, danced socially by men and women of all ages in some Middle Eastern countries, usually at festive occasions such as weddings. However, this naming is used synonymously in Egypt with Raqs sharqi as a generic term for "belly dancing".

No - not quite. All raqs sharqi is raqs baladi - but only some beledi is sharqi. It is certainly NOT used synonymously by professional dancers - many of whom use the term danse orientale rather than raqs sharqi any way. And that term is not mentioned at all.

The piece on technique implies it is about moves - which most experienced belly dancers would say is only part of the story.

No mention of music.

Confusing use of shimmy/shiver/vibration.

The simplest shimmy is created by moving the knees past each other at high speed, but contractions of the glutes, thighs or lower back may be used instead to create different qualities of movement

Not sure if I'd agree with that description.

Hip hits? A important move - as only one of three listed (Shiver or Shimmy, Hip Hits, Undulations) - and I'm not sure what they mean. Maybe hip bumps - certainly not as important as a horizontal hip eight or hip drop!!

in undulations

There are a wide variety of movements of this kind, of which the most well known is probably the rotating movements of the chest forward

.
Only is some versions of belly dance. Ceratinly NOT used in Egyptian - raqs sharqi or any folk styles.

In Egypt, three main forms of the traditional dance are associated with belly dance which are called by different terms. Broadly, these are cabaret dance, folk dance, and classical dance. The terms often used are: Sha'abi, Baladi/Beledi, and Sharqi.

This imples Sha`abi = cabaret dance. This may be almost true if using "cabaret" only in the derogative European sense. But many dancers in low class dives do perform sharqi - or beledi. Sha`abi is more a street style.

Baladi is a folk style of dance from the Arab tribes who settled in Upper Egypt.

Egyptians are not Arabs. Beledi can refer to any folk style - or professional dance of the awailm - or a part of a sharqi performance.

Dance which tries to preserve folk traditions from the countryside or from specific tribes is often referred to as Ghawahzee.

Doesn't make sense - and if it did it'd be wrong.

Skimmed over the rest until reaching the praising of Shakira as a belly dancer. We've certainly beaten that one to death on this forum.

Looking at the raqs sharqi entry doesn't look much beeter starts:

Based on the traditional ghawazi and other folk styles and formed by western influences such as marching bands, the Russian ballet, Latin dance, etc., this hybrid style was performed in the cabarets of interbellum period Egypt and in early Egyptian cinema.

The style is often considered the classical style of belly dance, although that term historically referred to the ghawazi style, and today covers a much wider range of Middle Eastern dance as well as Western styles developed from them.

The ghawazi had not real influence on raqs sharqi. Show me one ghawazi styled move. It was based on the awailm and Mohamed Ali Street dancers and the social dance of Egyptians.

The history section is also flawed.

Enough! Back to work - that's a wasted 30 minutes!

 

[Shanazel]

Like an elite squad of wikipedia bellydance nerd vigilantes

You need a collective name, preferably something that includes "antidefamation" in the title. :think: