Feminism, Feminists (Spin Off on Sadie/Kaya Thread)

[Jane]

Yes there is discrimination towards men as well, for example a lot of companies would not hire a man with long hair, how ridiculous is that? Some can get away with it if they say it's for religious reasons, but you should be able to have long hair if you want, women are allowed to, so why not men?

Conservative social conformity. Depends on your type of job.

My husband wasn't allowed to have his goatee beard for the first five years in his company, because it wasn't mainstream enough. Had to take his earring out too. Still no earring, but I like the comeback of the beard He is in sales and his outward appearance represents his company.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Speaking of no hair, all members of the New York Yankees cannot have hair on their face or long hair. I think this is the only team in professional ball where this policy is in effect, although now that George Steinbrenner is dead, I wonder if it will change.

 

[Amulya]

I always find it very odd; 200 years ago and most men had long hair (and beards), not sure when/why that changed. The fact that humans, both male and female, can grow their hair long, would make it more normal for people to have long hair in my opinion. And it's good to be able to choose, if we wouldn't be able to grow it, we would all have the same hair styles, pretty boring
(as you notice, I am not really a fan of short hair)

 

[Nejmeh]

Lovely tread ladies, very interesting!

My personal and not yet cristalized thoughts(so don`t bite my head off, just thinking out loud):
First of all, us women now should be very thankfull to the previous sisters who faught the big battles. They really did make a difference and I doubt if any of us could even slightly imagine how it was like when no wheels were already turning(nobody is that old here, bd is healthy but not that much). We do have some representatives of the follow-up generation, thats the same as which my mom belongs to. We also owe them so much, they paved the way for us to be able to choose....

There is only one thing that bothers me and that bothers me in the society as a whole. So we can choose now, as a woman, as an individual. The sky is the limit, no matter your background. Thats great, but it seems to me that a lot of problems with our youth(like sexualisation, criminalisation, the complete and utter boredom some kids seem to cherish) have to do with all the choices we have. We are programmed to make all of our lives, be all that we can be, but it`s bloody hard to know that, especially at a young age.
I don`t know but sometimes it seems that all those options just made it more stressing. We have to do it all, just because we can.

:think:

 

[Shanazel]

Trust me on this: having many options is less stressful than having only a few, especially when none of the few are a good fit for you. No one has to do it all; thinking like this is a compulsive behavior that has everything to do with individual psychological make up and nothing to do with having options.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Trust me on this: having many options is less stressful than having only a few, especially when none of the few are a good fit for you. No one has to do it all; thinking like this is a compulsive behavior that has everything to do with individual psychological make up and nothing to do with having options.

Every time I watch a 50s sitcom here, I am reminded of how the only option most women had was to be a wife and mother. If that was my only option today, I would be up the proverbial creek with the proverbial paddle!

 

[Ariadne]

I have to speak up and say that is a blanket statement. Like most stereotypes while it may be mostly true in many places it is not always true everywhere. My great great great grandmother lived in the 1800's and was not only a wife and mother but a teacher, clerk, herbalist, attorney, and University Dean. She taught her kids to value an education and of the thousands of us descended from her it is assumed that our daughters will get as much education as possible. It is possible to make other choices in your life even in a "traditional society".

As I said before I have every respect for the suffragette movement (considered the "first wave" of the feminist movement) but the movements that came afterward not so much. To often they qualified "equality" as being just like "men" at the cost of more "traditional" values (yes I know they're both stereotypes). I guess that makes me a humanist instead of a feminist since I believe in choice and tradition at the same time, rights for both men and women with the duty of putting the needs of the children first.

There is only one thing that bothers me and that bothers me in the society as a whole. So we can choose now, as a woman, as an individual. The sky is the limit, no matter your background. Thats great, but it seems to me that a lot of problems with our youth(like sexualisation, criminalisation, the complete and utter boredom some kids seem to cherish) have to do with all the choices we have. We are programmed to make all of our lives, be all that we can be, but it`s bloody hard to know that, especially at a young age.

When personal gratification is treated as being of equal value to everything else including an education and self control why should they value anything at all?

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Ariadne, I really like the way you think! :clap::yay::dance:

 

[Amulya]

Lovely tread ladies, very interesting!

My personal and not yet cristalized thoughts(so don`t bite my head off, just thinking out loud):
First of all, us women now should be very thankfull to the previous sisters who faught the big battles. They really did make a difference and I doubt if any of us could even slightly imagine how it was like when no wheels were already turning(nobody is that old here, bd is healthy but not that much). We do have some representatives of the follow-up generation, thats the same as which my mom belongs to. We also owe them so much, they paved the way for us to be able to choose....

There is only one thing that bothers me and that bothers me in the society as a whole. So we can choose now, as a woman, as an individual. The sky is the limit, no matter your background. Thats great, but it seems to me that a lot of problems with our youth(like sexualisation, criminalisation, the complete and utter boredom some kids seem to cherish) have to do with all the choices we have. We are programmed to make all of our lives, be all that we can be, but it`s bloody hard to know that, especially at a young age.
I don`t know but sometimes it seems that all those options just made it more stressing. We have to do it all, just because we can.

:think:

I think it's not so much the amount of choice, but the culture of 'you have to be very busy otherwise you are a failure'. A lot of people are just too busy, they plan every single minute of their lives. And that could cause younger groups to go against that and become lazy and bored.
It's a huge pressure to have to be busy every single minute. Every time you open up a magazine or read things on the web you're confronted with those multitasking wonder-woman kind of people. In reality most people don't have that much energy.
Why can't people find a middle ground?
Maybe another thing: when there is so much choice and you like too many things, you want to do it all, but it's not possible; can be frustrating!
But I agree with Shanazel: it is so good we have all those options now.

 

[Ariadne]

Ariadne, I really like the way you think! :clap::yay::dance:

Thank you.

 

[Shanazel]

I have to speak up and say that is a blanket statement.

Well, not exactly. I stated "the only option most women had was to be a wife and mother." There were some jobs were open to them, though the vast majority of women did not have the chances your grandmother had.

As a member of one of the later waves of feminism, I have to smile wryly at your statement about equality meaning the same thing as being a man and wonder why people don't yet recognize media hype for what it is. To partaphrase Simone de Beauvoir: there are two types of people in the world: human beings and women. When women start acting like human beings, they are accused of trying to be men.

that makes me a humanist instead of a feminist since I believe in choice and tradition at the same time, rights for both men and women

Accept it or not, that is an excellent definition of feminism. Feminism is not about denying men rights, it is about gaining those same rights for women and children.

 

[Ariadne]

Eh? I was responding to this:

how the only option most women had was to be a wife and mother. If that was my only option today

nor is the quote you used in your post right before that:

Trust me on this: having many options is less stressful than having only a few, especially when none of the few are a good fit for you. No one has to do it all; thinking like this is a compulsive behavior that has everything to do with individual psychological make up and nothing to do with having options.

the same as the one you just used.



We've thoroughly discussed this before haven't we? I think we have the same values and agree on them it's just the name we differ on. I refuse to be called a feminist because the US militant feminists have made the very name distasteful to me. I could pull out all kinds of quotes from them to back me up but that would be pointless. If you want to think of me as a feminist go right ahead I know what you mean by it and it doesn't offend me, just don't be surprised when I don't call myself one.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I think the word "feminist" puts a lot of people off because the original meaning somehow got tarnished. Just like the phrase "born again" the original beauty of the term was maligned by a lot of warped individuals. I can think of others but these two words come to mind right now. I prefer now to use the words "human rights" because it seems to get the message across better. IMHO. . .

 

[Shanazel]

Ariadne, I have no desire to supply you with a label you don't like. As you say, it is just the term we differ on. Apologies for the pronoun glitch, by the way: I was quoting Greek Bonfire and not myself.

Your insistence on a single interpretation of the word "feminist" based on a dislike of a particular contingent who used the term does bother me. It's like despising the term "German" because some Germans were Nazis.

To quote Kashmir:

There isn't one true feminisim - but a range of feminisms which academics divide by their underlying philosophies. For instance socialist feminism, Marxist feminisim, liberal feminism, radical feminiism, lesbian feminism, existentialist feminism, postmodern feminism etc

However, within all (I think) lies the concept of a woman's choice - but that has to be a true choice not a forced one.

 

[Nejmeh]

Trust me on this: having many options is less stressful than having only a few, especially when none of the few are a good fit for you. No one has to do it all; thinking like this is a compulsive behavior that has everything to do with individual psychological make up and nothing to do with having options.

First, let me be clear that I know I owe so much to the early feminists. I was just somewhat thinking out loud and playing devils advocate.

I do doubt if it is really that easy as compulsive behaviour, like amulya said, its almost expected.And not every choice has the same value for the rest of the people. How many times have i heard that my mom was a bad mom because she was stay at home mom!?

But I do think this is actually a little off subject, this has more to do with the society as a whole, not with feminism specific. Sorry for this.

 

[Shanazel]

Your poor mom; it must've been hard to hear things like that. I've been both a working mom and a full-time stay at home mom and can't recall anyone ever saying a negative word to me about either choice. Maybe people were too scared of me to comment? I really am very ferocious and might bite the finger that points at me.

 

[Nejmeh]

Your poor mom; it must've been hard to hear things like that. I've been both a working mom and a full-time stay at home mom and can't recall anyone ever saying a negative word to me about either choice. Maybe people were too scared of me to comment? I really am very ferocious and might bite the finger that points at me.

It was, though I keep reminding her that I couldn`t have had a better mom. They always said she wasn`t giving a good example for me as a girl:/ But they also said that mainly to me, not to her. She has pretty much the same attitude as you, point and I`ll bite!

 

[Ariadne]

Ariadne, I have no desire to supply you with a label you don't like. As you say, it is just the term we differ on. Apologies for the pronoun glitch, by the way: I was quoting Greek Bonfire and not myself.

:wall: Doh. Yeah, I totally missed that.

Your insistence on a single interpretation of the word "feminist" based on a dislike of a particular contingent who used the term does bother me. It's like despising the term "German" because some Germans were Nazis.

:think: I'll tell you what, if you can show me a type of mainstream feminism (currant) that teaches sexual restraint and marital fidelity I will consider changing my mind.

Mainly though it's just not my focus. The other problem I have with the name "feminism" is that it is pretty much focused on women and I just don't think that way. When I think of morals and standards I think of both men and women, to me they are integrally tied together, hence my focus of being "human" rather then being "female".

 

[Shanazel]

And that is certainly fair enough! Back in the late sixties and early seventies when I first became aware of inequalities between opportunites for me and my brother, the concentration was indeed on seeking equal rights for women. Oddly enough, the correlation to that was opening jobs traditionally held by women to men, so humanism was involved from the beginning. In about 1976, the college sent a bunch of reporters to interview me since I was the first woman to ever hold my particular job or to complete my particular major. Someone asked me if I believed in women's lib. I said I believed in people lib and thought everyone should be able to do what they wished. I later embraced the term feminism simply because people were so frightened of it and I firmly believed it had a bad rap.

Marital fidelity and sexual restraint are concepts of morality generally attended to by religion. Feminism is aimed at political and social equality of humanity. That being said, I do know pagan feminists who call on Hera as the goddess of marriage and view the institution as absolutely sacred. Also know some Christian and Jewish feminists who feel the same way. That work for you?

(I really do enjoy our discussions, Ariadne. Thanks for joining in.)

 

[Amulya]

I think in some ways things have sometimes become the other way round: women can do a lot of the same things as men now, but the other way round? For example, do you often see stay at home dad's? I have heard from a lot of guys they would like that, but society thinks it's strange. I have even heard people saying 'that is unnatural', what :shok:!? Unnatural? Why? It's apparently harder for men to get part time jobs too.