The Anti Prop

[Duvet]

Re zills: - I'm wondering when a prop isn't a prop. Could you class hair as a prop? Or costume fringing? Even sequins? Where does it end?

If zills (once thought of as inseperable from belly dance) are now viewed by some as just a prop, is a live drummer just a prop too? I.e. used as a gimmick/novelty.

 

[Jane]

I consider zills to be a prop instrument, not strictly a prop. Just like dancing with a drum as long as you are actually playing it like an instrument i.e. Karim Nagi. Dance on top of it like Tito and then it's a prop.

A live drummer is a musician. Unless they also dance and then they are a partner/dancer.

If you have an attached thing like hair/wings/cape/super-fringe and use it as a prop, it becomes a prop. If it just happens to be there and isn't used as a focus, cape dangles behind and is never foofed around, then it's a part of your costume.

I'm saying that props are appropriate sometimes. I am saying they are becoming overused, overdone, and some are out of place. Individual musical expression is being lost in favor of wow prop factors and gimmicks and I think that's an unfortunate trend.

 

[Shanazel]

I'd give you more rep if I could, Jane, but the system won't let me do it twice in a row.

I am saying they are becoming overused, overdone, and some are out of place. Individual musical expression is being lost in favor of wow prop factors and gimmicks and I think that's an unfortunate trend.

That expresses my viewpoint so well that I'm just gonna smile and nod.

 

[Jane]

Thanks Shan! I have a nice warm fuzzy now

 

[Darshiva]

I'd give you more rep if I could, Jane, but the system won't let me do it twice in a row.



That expresses my viewpoint so well that I'm just gonna smile and nod.

And mine.

As a big wings fanatic, it really bugs me to see people thrashing them about (hopefully) in time to the music. I love to dance with the wings, not wings with the dance.

 

[Kashmir]

Re zills: - I'm wondering when a prop isn't a prop. Could you class hair as a prop? Or costume fringing? Even sequins? Where does it end?

If zills (once thought of as inseperable from belly dance) are now viewed by some as just a prop, is a live drummer just a prop too? I.e. used as a gimmick/novelty.

For me it is a "prop" if the dance stands without it. If you are zilling as the only musical accompaniment then it isn’t a prop. Ditto drummer. If you are vaguely zilling along with the CD I think it could be a prop. (ditto drummer skin synching a CD)

 

[Dunyah]

Zills as a prop or as an essential? Depends on your dance lineage. For me, as an American Cabaret style dancer who began dancing in the 70's, zills are an essential part of the dance and I feel more comfortable playing them when I dance than not playing them. I can do veil and have expressive hands while wearing them.

If you are in the more purely Egyptian lineage and learned the dance after the 80's, you won't consider zills essential or even be likely to use them as a "prop." They went out of style with dancers in Egypt around that time and haven't come back yet, apparently.

I do like props, also because of my dance lineage, which has a proud tradition of prop dancing. I dance with sword, goblets, candle tray, wings. But not EVERY time I perform, there is a very valid point to be made about being able to dance without props. The props should enhance the performance but not be a crutch.

Veils aren't really a prop in my dance lineage, they are an essential part of the dance. That said, I don't usually do extensive veil dancing, I either use it as an entrance or use it for a short segment of the dance. But I did recently choreograph a whole dance for my students using veils to frame our movements, we didn't swish them about much at all.

So, I agree with the OP that dancers should be able to dance without props, and sometimes gimmicky props can overtake a show. On the other hand, people do like novelty and different things and as I said, there are differences in style depending on your dance heritage.

 

[Zorba]

I'm reminded of this page on my site:

Dream The Impossible Dream!

 

[Leilah]

I wholeheartedly agree that zills are a musical instrument. But I signed up to dance, not play an instrument.

I've never been overly musically inclined, so dance is really my only musical venture. And as a gal with very little natural rhythm, dance takes all I have. If I must dance and zill at the same time, both suffer. It's zill or dance for me, not both.

 

[Jane]

I started out as an American Oriental dancer (Cab-u-RAY back then) learning from 70s era dancers who had both a strong Turkish and Jamila Salmpour influence. We were told we had to play zills or we weren't "real" belly dancers. This terrified us so badly that all the dancers in my area who share this lineage play very well- and so do all of our students. :lol:

We need a dance lineage thread. That could be fun!

 

[Shanazel]

Another AmCab dancer who started in the seventies using zils. Hated 'em then and hate 'em now.

 

[Farasha Hanem]

And mine.

As a big wings fanatic, it really bugs me to see people thrashing them about (hopefully) in time to the music. I love to dance with the wings, not wings with the dance.

I've noticed quite a few YouTube videos of dancers who thrash around with their wings. I thought thoe whole point of wings was to be airy, floaty, and graceful, like, well, a gossamer butterfly. Some of the dancers I've seen, I'd like to swat with a human-sized fly swatter. >:/

I was also recently disappointed by one of the advanced students in our troupe. Right now, the central heat and air is out in our building, so for two weeks, we all sweated worse than teenage boys in a gym locker (we have a window unit now). The advanced student is teaching us a new choreo using silk veils. She emphasized that a silk veil "is not a prop, but your dance partner" (frankly, as much as I love veils, I'm convinced they're all carnivorous dancer-eaters, but what the hey ). Yet this same dancer used her veil to mop up the sweat on her body! Apart from the "ewwww factor," I was rather appalled because silk is such a delicate fabric, especially 5 mm habotai silk. I wouldn't treat my silk veils that way, even if they DO try to eat me.

I guess my background as a violinist causes me to feel different about zills than most. I love them, and have been practicing with my Uncle Malfufo and Drums of Lebanon CD's. I'm serious about wanting to learn to play Arabic music, so as I've already mentioned, I view them as an instrument. I just wish my teacher loved them! :lol:

 

[Mahin]

let alone trying to learn to use a cane without killing myself and my dance sisters.

haha! Whenever I'm teaching a cane workshop, I tell the students first thing to turn to their neighbor and apologize - they're bound to hit them sooner or later!

My dance partner and I have done some serious damage (to each other and our surroundings) making up new duet/double cane tricks.

No one said making art is safe! :lol:

Mahin

 

[Mahin]

I always feel sad when I hear dancers say things like that. I LOVE playing zills - especially with live bands. It helps you really be a bridge between the music and the dance because you are involved in both.

I admit that it was a frustrating start, but I, for one, am very very glad I made that journey.

Mahin

 

[Shanazel]

Interesting viewpoint of zils being a bridge between music and the dance though I don't think I agree with it (why would music and dance need a bridge?).

There's been discussion in the past about the merits of singing along with the band as one dances. Some folks like it; some folks don't. I sing better than I play zils but I don't sing while I dance either. I just dance.

 

[*Nila*]

I personally don´t like dancing with props too much, I prefer just dancing...music, dance, emotions are enough for me to enjoy it, both when I dance or when I watch another dancer. I was always thinking why should a dancer use some props? Why the dance itself isn´t enough?...
There are just few props I really like, I guess these are "traditional" props (since I dance egyptian style, I mean usually used by egyptian dancers )...like cane, shamadan...or zills. It seems to me that these props belong to bellydance Well, and I love dancing with fire fans, but I agree that this isn´t bellydance, in my case it´s just a dance with bellydance moves...some kind of fusion, I guess :-D
Well, but despite my preference I "have" to use props...because people who hires me for public events usually wants some prop. If I dance for example two dances, at least one should be with a prop:-/ These people are non-dancers, they think the public would be bored if I would just dance... and my friends ( again non-dancers ) also prefer dancing with props. I was quite annoyed ( but at least it forced me to learn dance with all these things... ) What do you think about this...that public kind of force you to dance with props?

 

[AndreaSTL]

If a customer requests a certain prop you should provide it. Although since they aren't "insiders" they likely wouldn't know about a prop unless they saw a photo of you using it on your web site. In the interest of business I think most dancers have to give/bend a little bit. There are probably some dancers who are able to take a hard line and refuse to do certain things, but most have to take the good with the bad and do what the customer wants.

As for the original topic: I agree that some dancers have become proptastic and their dancing has suffered. I don't want to watch lyrical dance done in bedlah with a veil or wings set to some vaguely ME music. If that's what you're into and how you want to express yourself - great. Just don't call it belly dance.

I have to admit to liking wings for pharaonic pieces or dramatic entrances. I'm not overly fond of them for six minute pieces with limited actual dancing, though. It's the same for veil and double veil. Short is sweet, go long pass the bong. :shok:


There are times when props are appropriate and add to the performance. It does seem that newer dancers are using them prematurely. Shoot, that was the second choreo we learned. I'd been dancing less than a year when a veil was put in my hand. Of course I thought it was new, exciting, fun, and swishy, but I really had no business dancing with one.

 

[Mahin]

Interesting viewpoint of zils being a bridge between music and the dance though I don't think I agree with it (why would music and dance need a bridge?).

.

From an external view, they don't need a "bridge". That description is one of a more personal experience - I should have clarified that.

Playing lets me participate directly in the music-making as well as it's translation to a visual as a dancer. I respond to the changes in the melody or drums. With some bands that I have worked with for a long time, we incorporate "call and response" type elements with the zills and these of course are reflected in what I dance to it as well.

That's just my personal opinion and experience.

Mahin

 

[Dunyah]

From an external view, they don't need a "bridge". That description is one of a more personal experience - I should have clarified that.

Playing lets me participate directly in the music-making as well as it's translation to a visual as a dancer. I respond to the changes in the melody or drums. With some bands that I have worked with for a long time, we incorporate "call and response" type elements with the zills and these of course are reflected in what I dance to it as well.

That's just my personal opinion and experience.

Mahin

That's my experience, too. I was a musician (since age 5) before I was a dancer, so zills are like second nature to me. When I dance, I hear the music and it translates in my body as dancing and through my hands into the zills. I understand how difficult they are for some, and how much work it is to become proficient at them. For some dancers it may not be worth the time and effort - I tend to feel that way about choreography, it takes me so long and so much repetition to learn an entire choreography that it's just not worth it to me. Let me dance improv to live music while playing zills and I am in bliss. Or, if I am dancing to recorded music, let me block out certain areas of the music with choreographed steps and improvise the rest. And, usually, include finger cymbals in at least part of the dance. Only when using a silk veil am I hesitant to also use cymbals, I've found the silk gets wrapped in the veil sometimes, which doesn't seem to happen as much with chiffon or lamé veils.

I don't think a year is too soon to dance with a veil. If it is for a student performance, presumably there is a choreography with the veil that includes actual dancing. I think dancing with a veil should be like playing - experiment with it, dance with joy and abandon with it, mess around. Do it just for fun in private, some things you do will stick and you can do them for performance later.

 

[Dunyah]

Also, when dancing with a veil, remember to use it for framing your movements as well as for spins and turns and general "swishing about."