Sex and Sensuality

[Azrael]

Really just a one-liner, but something I firmly believe when it comes to bellydancing:
Its exotic, not erotic!

 

[Morocco]

Sorry to have to tell you this, but

Do you not see sexuality in the roll of a hip or the shaking of lucious breasts, or the undulation of the pelvis? Is there no feeling of sexuality awakened in you in the yearning sound of a violin or a steady, throbbing drum rythm? Is sexuality really only a dry hump to you? Shareen El Safy is one of the most renowned dancers in the world. She speaks of dancers who literally have orgasms on stage. I believe her.
A'isha

Um, no - to all the above. Good music induces tarab, but as to "sexuality" in the dance - it depends on how it's done & the attitude of the doer at the time.

I hesitated a long time to answer this one because I really like & respect both people involved above, but at a seminar I was teaching Sunday, this specific post was mentioned by a student & I had to make the following explanation/ clarification, so I might as well post it here too ...

I should preface this next with the fact that if/ when I get a headache, it certainly isn't because my halo is on too tightly, my wings are way too small to give me a backache & I don’t even own a harp!

I have nothing against sex - I probably even jumpstarted *that* revolution in the late '50s (had to wait till I was "legal"!) & the snood I wear is to hide my little horns, so it's not out of any sort of "prudishness" that I must reveal the following:

ANY/ all claims to any sort of "orgasms" on stage by any Egyptian female should be taken with a whole carload of salt because what just about everybody outside of Egypt (& a few other places in Africa) seems to forget or just never really knew/ consciously assimilated because it's too awful to imagine is that (sit down here folks!)

Statistics show that over 95% of Egyptian females – including Christians, btw - have been clitoridectomized (& almost all Nubian women have been totally infibulated). They aren’t even having orgasms OFFSTAGE.

However (you know what it means when I use “however”!), like the nice, polite Middle Easterners that they are, they will tell you what they think you want to hear or what they think they would say/ feel if they had one (clitoris or orgasm, whichever!) – just like when folks try to one-up their friends & neighbors describing possessions or “exploits” & telling tall tales..

Not having “A”, they can only fantasize about “B” (or "O" in this case) & my heart breaks.

As for myself, I’m “intact” & have done “full-out”, emotion-packed shows that lasted 1 ½ hours or more (to-die-for live band, live Arabic or Turkish audience joining in the fun…) & never even came close to the big “O” onstage. Neither have I when I’ve socially danced, “wasted”, with somebody I really had the hots for, so …

Aunt Rocky
(What? Shocked that I’m not a virgin?!? Get over it!)

 

[Aisha Azar]

Sexuality, etc.

DEarest M,

Um, no - to all the above. Good music induces tarab, but as to "sexuality" in the dance - it depends on how it's done & the attitude of the doer at the time.

A. writes- I see the dance as having human sexuality at its core, and often that has a direct connection to Tarab in the music and the dance.

I hesitated a long time to answer this one because I really like & respect bothpeople involved above, but at a seminar I was teaching Sunday, this specific post was mentioned by a student & I had to make the following explanation/ clarification, so I might as well post it here too ...I should preface this next with the fact that if/ when I get a headache, it certainly isn't because my halo is on too tightly, my wings are way too small to give me a backache & I don’t even own a harp!

A'isha writes- Another "Heaven's Devil" at your service!!

I have nothing against sex - I probably even jumpstarted *that* revolution in the late '50s (had to wait till I was "legal"!) & the snood I wear is to hide my little horns, so it's not out of any sort of "prudishness" that I must reveal the following:

A'isha writes- Having gotten private jokes from you, I am aware that you are not a prude on any level!!

ANY/ all claims to any sort of "orgasms" on stage by any Egyptian female should be taken with a whole carload of salt because what just about everybody outside of Egypt (& a few other places in Africa) seems to forget or just never really knew/ consciously assimilated because it's too awful to imagine is that (sit down here folks!)Statistics show that over 95% of Egyptian females – including Christians, btw - have been clitoridectomized (& almost all Nubian women have been totally infibulated). They aren’t even having orgasms OFFSTAGE.

A'isha writes- I do not recall Shareen stating that the dancer was an Egyptian or otherwise. Having said that,I can also state that women with clitorectomies sometimes CAN still have orgasms, depending on how much of the clitoris is removed, what nerve endings are still there, etc.There are also women who can have orgasms from stimulation of other tissues inside the vagina. I have an Egyptian friend who was circumsized when she was 9 years old, and she can experience orgasms.

However (you know what it means when I use “however”!), like the nice, polite Middle Easterners that they are, they will tell you what they think you want to hear or what they think they would say/ feel if they had one (clitoris or orgasm, whichever!) – just like when folks try to one-up their friends & neighbors describing possessions or “exploits” & telling tall tales..

A'isha writes- I have not met any Arab women who are willing to discuss their sex lives until they have known me for awhile, actually. Some of them never will, but then there are westerners that are the same way.


A'isha writes- I have no reason not to believe her as I have read papers on the subject of female clitorectomy as well, and it really does depend on a numger of things. And again, I am not sure that Shareen specifically discussed Egyptian dan cers here, only the Egyptian style of dance.

Not having “A”, they can only fantasize about “B” (or "O" in this case) & my heart breaks.

A'isha writes- I would not venture to decide that for any of my friends who claim to have orgasms, whether circumsized or otherwise!! I do know that studies show that some women can have orgasms after circumcision, just as some men can have an erection after being neutered, and that this does not always depend on the age of the victim. there are also many people who are not circumsized who never experience orgasm, but still feel satisfied with their sexual responses.

As for myself, I’m “intact” & have done “full-out”, emotion-packed shows that lasted 1 ½ hours or more (to-die-for live band, live Arabic or Turkish audience joining in the fun…) & never even came close to the big “O” onstage. Neither have I when I’ve socially danced, “wasted”, with somebody I really had the hots for, so …

A'isha writes- I also have not had an orgasm on stage, nor would I want to, but then sexuality is a thing apart from the physical act of having sex.

Hugs to you,
A'isha

Aunt Rocky
(What? Shocked that I’m not a virgin?!? Get over it!)

 

[Morocco]

A. writes- I see the dance as having human sexuality at its core, and often that has a direct connection to Tarab in the music and the dance.

A'isha writes- Having gotten private jokes from you, I am aware that you are not a prude on any level!!

M: Oops! Outed again!!!

A'isha writes- I do not recall Shareen stating that the dancer was an Egyptian or otherwise.

M: most of her experience has been in Egypt, so one can sort of assume ...

AA: Having said that,I can also state that women with clitorectomies sometimes CAN still have orgasms, depending on how much of the clitoris is removed, what nerve endings are still there, etc.There are also women who can have orgasms from stimulation of other tissues inside the vagina. I have an Egyptian friend who was circumsized when she was 9 years old, and she can experience orgasms.

I have not met any Arab women who are willing to discuss their sex lives until they have known me for awhile, actually. Some of them never will, but then there are westerners that are the same way.

M: I've been very fortunate in having a few totally open female friends from "over there", but then again, I was also willing to be that open with them ...

A'isha writes- I have no reason not to believe her as I have read papers on the subject of female clitorectomy as well, and it really does depend on a numger of things. And again, I am not sure that Shareen specifically discussed Egyptian dan cers here, only the Egyptian style of dance.

M: I've read several books on the subject, as it's been a personal interest of mine for over 40 years, outside of the dance.

A'isha writes- I also have not had an orgasm on stage, nor would I want to, but then sexuality is a thing apart from the physical act of having sex.

M: total agreement.

Hugs to you,
A'isha

Dearest AA,

Wrote a long answer to yours, but this website swallowed it because t took me too long. Don't have time to redo,

Basically it boils down to any disagreements between us are almost always simply because we define some words differently. NOT a problem!

I say sensual & yes, it is possible for some clitoridectomized (& even infibulated) women to have an orgasm BUT it takes longer & a very considerate lover.

Ciao 4 niao,
Yer favorite Auntie
:lol:

 

[belly_dancer]

Dearest AA,

Wrote a long answer to yours, but this website swallowed it because t took me too long. Don't have time to redo,

Basically it boils down to any disagreements between us are almost always simply because we define some words differently. NOT a problem!

I say sensual & yes, it is possible for some clitoridectomized (& even infibulated) women to have an orgasm BUT it takes longer & a very considerate lover.

Ciao 4 niao,
Yer favorite Auntie
:lol:

& with the time & "direct stimulation" it takes for most "complete" women to reach the big O... I am pretty sure most all of those "orgasm faces" seen on dancers are simulated not stimulated!:shok: & faking NEVER gets you what you want!

 

[Brea]

...

 

[Kashmir]

& with the time & "direct stimulation" it takes for most "complete" women to reach the big O... I am pretty sure most all of those "orgasm faces" seen on dancers are simulated not stimulated!:shok: & faking NEVER gets you what you want!

I remember working on Shareen's "Welcome Home Shimmy" some years back. Did it bring me to orgasm? Not quite - but close and another dancer swore she could do it. But, and it's a big but, neither of us ever used it in performance. Why? Because frankly the energy shifted so much that the dance was lost. If I actually worked on dancing then the sexual stimulation lessened - big surprise - not. I ended up throwing it in the same basket as trance rituals for performance - if you need to do it fake it and concentrate on the appearance rather than the reality.

 

[da Sage]

I remember working on Shareen's "Welcome Home Shimmy" some years back. Did it bring me to orgasm? Not quite - but close and another dancer swore she could do it. But, and it's a big but, neither of us ever used it in performance. Why? Because frankly the energy shifted so much that the dance was lost. If I actually worked on dancing then the sexual stimulation lessened - big surprise - not. I ended up throwing it in the same basket as trance rituals for performance - if you need to do it fake it and concentrate on the appearance rather than the reality.

*adds this shimmy to my list of "techniques to learn"*

:yay:

 

[Brea]

...

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I could not believe my eyes when I read about orgasms on stage.
I am still in shock. Apart from anything, it is profoundly unprofessional and if I have heard of anything giving this dance a bad name then it is this.
A performer has a duty to remain focused and in control at all times. It is not public masturbation. It is not about sexual kicks in public. A dance may make a woman feel good about herself, desirable, attractive and like the queen of the party but anthing like an orgasm means someone has serious issues to deal with. Sorry, but this is my opinion.

 

[Reen.Blom]

I could not believe my eyes when I read about orgasms on stage.
I am still in shock. Apart from anything, it is profoundly unprofessional and if I have heard of anything giving this dance a bad name then it is this.
A performer has a duty to remain focused and in control at all times. It is not public masturbation. It is not about sexual kicks in public. A dance may make a woman feel good about herself, desirable, attractive and like the queen of the party but anthing like an orgasm means someone has serious issues to deal with. Sorry, but this is my opinion.

Agreed 100%!

 

[da Sage]

I could not believe my eyes when I read about orgasms on stage.
I am still in shock. Apart from anything, it is profoundly unprofessional and if I have heard of anything giving this dance a bad name then it is this.
A performer has a duty to remain focused and in control at all times. It is not public masturbation. It is not about sexual kicks in public. A dance may make a woman feel good about herself, desirable, attractive and like the queen of the party but anthing like an orgasm means someone has serious issues to deal with. Sorry, but this is my opinion.

It's interesting that so many bellydance moves imitate orgasmic-looking stylizations, but that actually having an orgasm on stage is outrageous!

So we can show women imitating sex in movies, and having imitated orgasms in movies, and even show simulated rape in movies...but a supposedly real orgasm (without explicit visuals - remember the Scarlet Johanson flap) is scandalous.

Personally, I think too many dancers are too intent on their own experience/feelings over the audience's experience/feelings already. But I don't really have a moral objection to a woman orgasming as part of a performance. Although the performance itself might suffer, and I'd have an issue with that.

 

[Brea]

...

 

[Reen.Blom]

It's interesting that so many bellydance moves imitate orgasmic-looking stylizations, but that actually having an orgasm on stage is outrageous!

So we can show women imitating sex in movies, and having imitated orgasms in movies, and even show simulated rape in movies...but a supposedly real orgasm (without explicit visuals - remember the Scarlet Johanson flap) is scandalous.

Personally, I think too many dancers are too intent on their own experience/feelings over the audience's experience/feelings already. But I don't really have a moral objection to a woman orgasming as part of a performance. Although the performance itself might suffer, and I'd have an issue with that.

Well who says that showing sex in movies is ok??? LMAO

I think modern movie industry is built more on sex appeal of actors than on acting itself! I do believe certain movies would just benefit from refraining from explicit scenes! After all its so typical that 2 characters that know each other barely a day must have sex or the movie is not complete.... and then we can go on and talk about STDs and teenage pregnancies....

Oh and I find it an interesting opinion that bellydance moves imitate ' orgasmic-looking stylizations'.... I suppose thats what one as a DANCER puts in it. To me they are ORGANIC rather than orgasmic! That is following the natural flexibility of the body, emphasizing it.

Well if you as a performer act out orgasm, that's your artistic choice? But to say that's EVERYONE who dances is bound to do the same, would be narrowing the expressional pallete of the dance to just one aspect of sexuality?

I strongly believe it is artist's choice of what message you want to send to the audience, what mood you want to create, what EMOTIONS you want to convey... And nopes I dont think that sexual are the only feelings that can be expressed by the dance....

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Well who says that showing sex in movies is ok??? LMAO

I think modern movie industry is built more on sex appeal of actors than on acting itself! I do believe certain movies would just benefit from refraining from explicit scenes! After all its so typical that 2 characters that know each other barely a day must have sex or the movie is not complete.... and then we can go on and talk about STDs and teenage pregnancies....

Oh and I find it an interesting opinion that bellydance moves imitate ' orgasmic-looking stylizations'.... I suppose thats what one as a DANCER puts in it. To me they are ORGANIC rather than orgasmic! That is following the natural flexibility of the body, emphasizing it.

Well if you as a performer act out orgasm, that's your artistic choice? But to say that's EVERYONE who dances is bound to do the same, would be narrowing the expressional pallete of the dance to just one aspect of sexuality?

I strongly believe it is artist's choice of what message you want to send to the audience, what mood you want to create, what EMOTIONS you want to convey... And nopes I dont think that sexual are the only feelings that can be expressed by the dance....

For some, this dance has long been an exuse for blatent exhibitionism.

 

[Aniseteph]

Maybe I'm too naive here, but if someone's bellydance moves are imitating orgasmic-looking stylizations they need a bucket of water chucking over them. IMHO. I really didn't think that real or faked private moments had any place in a decent bellydance performance - we're back to the old pleasing the Sultan routine...

If you want to see that kind of show go see lap dancers.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Maybe I'm too naive here, but if someone's bellydance moves are imitating orgasmic-looking stylizations they need a bucket of water chucking over them. IMHO. I really didn't think that real or faked private moments had any place in a decent bellydance performance - we're back to the old pleasing the Sultan routine...

If you want to see that kind of show go see lap dancers.

The problem is, as a member of the audience I have not wanted to see this,but have on several occasions. Fake orgasms and writhing on the floor and humping with an invisible partner are to name a few. One claimed to be wearing a homemade G-string which fell onto her thigh and give the audience on one side a full frontal. She claims to be a teacher and preaches the Goddess.

 

[Aniseteph]

The problem is, as a member of the audience I have not wanted to see this,but have on several occasions. Fake orgasms and writhing on the floor and humping with an invisible partner are to name a few. One claimed to be wearing a homemade G-string which fell onto her thigh and give the audience on one side a full frontal. She claims to be a teacher and preaches the Goddess.

Ewwww. I think I have heard of it (draws thick veil over previous threads). What you can do while students buy into this and the general public are led to believe that's what belly dance is about? Sad.

 

[Reen.Blom]

For some, this dance has long been an exuse for blatent exhibitionism.

Geez, these are the words i was looking for watching 'cat on heat' performances and way too revealing costumes....

Aniseteph, bucket of water way to go! (Someone should propose that to BD Police...LOL)

 

[Caroline_afifi]

Geez, these are the words i was looking for watching 'cat on heat' performances and way too revealing costumes....

Aniseteph, bucket of water way to go! (Someone should propose that to BD Police...LOL)

ha ha .. yes if I had spelt it right!
back to school i think! I am very lazy on the keyboard and create my own spellings...:lol: