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Thread: Turkish style

  1. #51
    V.I.P. Yasmine Bint Al Nubia's Avatar
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    Default Turkish Style and Karshlimar

    Hi Everyone, Solace does have a different way of expressing the karshlimar rhythm, mainly because it's all percussion and doesn't have flowing melody often heard with this rhythm. Moon's example actually is typical of how karshlimar sounds when all the instruments play. I learned that karshlimar means "face to face", and it's a joyous rhythm, with finger snaps, hand claps and often skirt flourishes. A while back, one of my teachers taught a choreography to "Hooplada"(originally by Cassandra Shore. have you heard of this song?
    Yasmine

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    V.I.P. chryssanthi sahar's Avatar
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    The youtube clip is real Turkish (and Greek) Karsilama. No wonder, since the musicians are from Turkey It is a good cover version of Mastika Mastika.
    The Karsilama on Shiras site is a fake Karsilama. The rhythm is close to Karsilama, but for a Greek (and I suppose also for a Turk) it doesn't sound like a Karsilama. It is not authentic. Same stuff like the supposed to be Arabian songs of George Abdo (all Arabs I know - and believe me, I know very very many - laugh with Abdos songs. They say, that they sound like children's songs).

  3. #53
    Member Kiraze's Avatar
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    I cannot check YouTube clips from my current computer but that sample on Shira´s page represents very typical and real karsilama song but it quite slow karsilama rhythm used on folk music, which again is little bit different than "gypsy karsilama" or "oryantal karsilama" - that version by Brothers of Baladi however sound maybe too American (mostly because of funny pronounciation ) so maybe that is also one reason why it sounds fake... wonderful version of that song can be found from some old records of The Sultans (sorry, no good clips found from internet)

    So there are lots of different types of karsilama and there are also differencies whether musicians are Turks, Greek or American (whether they are originally Greek or Turk or some others)... I often think that American kashlimar is a rhythm and style of its own as similary the name is misspelled there is also quite big difference also in styling - that does not necessarily mean that this style would be *fake* but more the fact that it is based on old-style-turkish from 50´s to 70´s when karsilama in Greece and Turkey have more folkloric feeling

    Some more nice examples of typical karsilama (as well as dozens of other music examples) can be found from this link - under Turkey there is i.e. Rampi rampi with very Greek feeling despite sung in Turkish and there is also a good version of Mastika.

  4. #54
    Member steffib's Avatar
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    For some really cool Turkish music, I would recommend the recordings of Selim Sesler - Road to Kesan and Karsilimar, a CD he recorded with Brenda McKimmon. He's an amazing clarinet player, and his 9s are yummy, yummy, yummy.

    I also like Ozel Turkbas' CDs (available from iTunes and emusic), she has some cool musicians - Rompi and Hoplanda, Dalia Carella's Shuvani CD (two super karsilamas, Rumeli Karshilama and Sulukule), and Hagopian/Tekbilek's Gypsy Fire (available from emusic and iTunes).

    Anyways, there are many ways of playing a karsilama - one can count 121212123, one can have accents on 1 3 5 78, 1 3 5 789, one can count 1234-pause, one can count slow slow slow fast fast fast (I have learned each of these at one time or another - and each has its place) - and some musicians may syncopate. It all depends. An American musician who plays for an oriental dance performance at Rakkasah will not sound like a musician in Turkey playing with his friends in a bar ;-)

    Anyways, I love my 9s! Still trying to decide which song is my favorite - Mastika, Rumeli Karsilamasi or Sulukule. Ah, whichever my musician friends play!

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    V.I.P. chryssanthi sahar's Avatar
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    Dear Kiraze, thanks a lot for posting this link with the Balkan music There is really good music in there By the way, no wonder that this version of Rompi Rompi sounds so Greek, although it is sung in Turkish: the singer and the orchestra are Greeks. Rena Dalia is as far as I know a Greek from Asia Minor (I don't quite know if she is from Smyrna or from the Black Sea though). Rompi Rompi was very popular among the Greeks from Asia Minor and since all of them could speak Turkish, they could sing it in Turkish. I love this song, because it was the favorite song of my grandfather (who was a "Pontios", a Greek from the Turkish Black Sea area) and one of the very first songs I've heard in my live (although I could never understand the words, because I don't speak Turkish. But I had Turkish friends translate the song for me ).
    There is another thing, I'd like to talk about. Could we call Karsilama songs who have been created in America and have a quite different style than the original Turkish/Greek/Gypsy , still "Karsilama"? I mean the emigrants of North America created cultures on their own, which partially don't have much in common with the cultures of the countries where they came from. And especially they have very little in common with the actuall culture of their mother lands. I had seen a video on youtube which was showing a group of American Greeks supposed to dance Tsamiko (a very popular Greek folk dance), but the song they were dancing on , was no Tsamiko for me, who I am a Greek from Greece (I was born and grew up in Greece and even if I live in Germany, I still live with one foot in Greece because I go there very often and my whole family lives there). No Greek would consider that song to be a Tsamiko, because we have very certain idea about how a Tsamiko should sound like. That song from Shira's site, is no Karsilama for my feeling, that's why I called it "fake". And I cannot imagine that a Turk from Turkey would consider it as a Karsilama either ( I cannot know for sure though. You mentioned in some other posting that your husband is Turkish. So what does he thing of that song?).

  6. #56
    Member Kiraze's Avatar
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    Question Kashlimar is not same as karsilama

    Quote Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar View Post
    There is another thing, I'd like to talk about. Could we call Karsilama songs who have been created in America and have a quite different style than the original Turkish/Greek/Gypsy , still "Karsilama"?
    Well the rhythm is still 9/8 so based to that it still *is* karsilama as that is what the rhythm is called, but then again it is not necessarily karsilama dance (of which there are several different versions and karsilama as a folk dance does not have in fact almost any connection to Gypsy karsilama a.k.a. Roman Havasi not to mention Oriental version)

    As I suggested at my previous post I call this Americanized version Kashlimar when original stuff is Karsilama (pronounciation at least for non-American is totally different as Turkish is spoken similarly as it is written ). This kashlimar as a dance however is close enough to its roots it just gets little bit different pronounciation so it can be recognized but not necessarily felt to be genuine anymore
    Quote Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar View Post
    You mentioned in some other posting that your husband is Turkish. So what does he thing of that song?).
    As he comes from Central Anatolia he is not very familiar to 9/8 beat except at Seymen dances (which is quite similar to Zeybek, but where rhythm is usually very slow so the actual beat cannot be counted so clearly) so basically he can recognize it as a song with Turkish origin but he also for certain will comment about funny interpretation as according to him even Turkish folk played by The Sultans (Omar Faruk Tekbilek, who originally is Turkish) sounds foreign or at least old-fashioned
    Last edited by Kiraze; 12-12-2006 at 10:33 AM. Reason: some clarification

  7. #57
    V.I.P. Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chryssanthi Sahar
    There is another thing, I'd like to talk about. Could we call Karsilama songs who have been created in America and have a quite different style than the original Turkish/Greek/Gypsy , still "Karsilama"?
    In this youtube clip they call it "American style Karsilama"

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    V.I.P. Aisha Azar's Avatar
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    Default Karsilama/ Roman

    Dear Group,
    First, I admit that I am not an expert in Roman, but this is titled as Roman and it is very different from what I have learned, being much more expansive and not seeming to follow much of what I learned as the basic step pattern of the dance. Any comments? I would thinkl thnere is no such thing as American Karsilama any more than there is such a thing as Chinese or Scottish Karsilama.
    Regards,
    A'isha
    Last edited by Aisha Azar; 12-12-2006 at 02:38 PM. Reason: typos

  9. #59
    V.I.P. Yasmine Bint Al Nubia's Avatar
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    Hi Aisha, I haven't heard of "American Karshlimar" but when people post clips on youtube they give it a title that grabs people's attention. In fact most of the moves this dancer used are exacly like the moves used by the Turkish dancers just posted on the Youtube forum. One teacher I've had who specializes in Turkish style, says the style borrows a lot from the Romany people as well as the native folkloric dances. The Hand punches to the hips, arms and shoulders are hallmarks of this style as well as the two-handed finger snaps. The larger than life hip moves such as the pelvic rocking motion can be considered a Turkish move as well. But aside from the moves(as we both agree), Turkish music is the foundation of the dance style with the 9/8 rhythms being predominately heard. In fact most of Turkish style most dancers choose the either karshlimar or chiftetelli rhythm. I seems that in America ,there is more attention to Egyptan style than Turkish and I think there is room for all cultural representations of Oriental dance.

    Hi Chryssanthi, I think we are understanding the same thing from a different perspective. I understand the karshlimar as a rhythm with a 9/8 time signature. it's easier to hear it on a drum and so without the accompaniment of other instruments it does sound strange and foreign. Remember, its hard for many for us to hear music that is so different from what we are used to and so we have to learn it in stages.
    Yasmine

  10. #60
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    Default karsilama---to be or not to be

    I wholeheartedly agree with Aisha. Either it is Karsilama or it is not. I think that 9/8 rhythms differ and the dances that accompany can differ but there can only be one Karsilama. I, too, am NO expert in any way, but have heard them and seen them danced to. There is definitely a basic step pattern and the rest is embellished or accented. I feel this way only because in my experience every dance has these principles (in Egyptian Raks Sharqi there are basic steps too--this is the essence of the dance qualifying as Raks Sharqi as opposed to something else, right?)

    I will say that I think it is important to know what you are dancing and how it will be interpreted--that is yoru professional obligation. That way if you bill yourself as a dancer and instructor of "Karsilama", that will be indeed what you dance and teach. Looser interpretations need to be explained as such. Dancers...how many times have you purchased a video or enrolled in a workshop to be totally SHOCKED by what was displayed? I have...too many times.

    Again...please keep discussing the finer nuances of the Dance. I can not possibly be the only one learning so much! Thanks! Shukran!

    Nayila

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